JaymzHatstand Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 Looking in Yeadon volume 43A, page 50 has the photographic grey shot of 2173, and at the top of the page, a photo of 1720 (which is from an earlier batch) carrying what looks very much like green livery, featuring the same lining as the works photo. Obviously a works photo is not the same as an in service one, especially as its most likely in photographic grey (I don't think Saxony Green would look that light!) but that's not to say that there isn't evidence of 2173 carrying lined green when new. I certainly suspect that black will have followed fairly swiftly though. Cheers J Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 I'm as doubtful as you are about 2173 (one of the 1914 batch) - the NER started painting goods engines black in 1904. It might be argued that the style of lining in the photo grey shot suggests green livery was applied, but there are several pictures of T2s and T3s (LNER Q6s and Q7s) with the same lining - these certainly never wore green. I agree. The lining style adopted when painting for photographic grey does not logically or necessarily dictate that the in service livery subsequently applied would be consistent. I have come across examples of this with other pre-grouping companies. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floreat Industria Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 My 1955 ABC shows 68696 at West Auckland (51F), but Stockton (51E) by the 1959 edition. I'm as doubtful as you are about 2173 (one of the 1914 batch) - the NER started painting goods engines black in 1904. It might be argued that the style of lining in the photo grey shot suggests green livery was applied, but there are several pictures of T2s and T3s (LNER Q6s and Q7s) with the same lining - these certainly never wore green. Yes - it was at West Auckland until it had its heating/vacuum brake and an ex J71 boiler fitted at Gateshead in mid-1955. As Bachmann are doing the fitted version I thought it wasn't worth mentioning. I used to peer in West Auckland in the good old days and later on had a girlfriend who lived just down the road! 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floreat Industria Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 Looking in Yeadon volume 43A, page 50 has the photographic grey shot of 2173, and at the top of the page, a photo of 1720 (which is from an earlier batch) carrying what looks very much like green livery, featuring the same lining as the works photo. Obviously a works photo is not the same as an in service one, especially as its most likely in photographic grey (I don't think Saxony Green would look that light!) but that's not to say that there isn't evidence of 2173 carrying lined green when new. I certainly suspect that black will have followed fairly swiftly though. Cheers J Hello. Yes - 1720 was special and did indeed have NER lined green livery and became LNER 8680 and BR 68680, carrying LNER and BR green then BR lined and finally plain black liveries, and was much modelled. It would be a better candidate for the NER livery model. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broadway Clive Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 Cancelled my orders for what were 69001 and 69028 in light of the change to earlier versions. Only been waiting two decades for chassis upgrades but the coreless motor might not like my feedback controllers anyway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernard Lamb Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 Cancelled my orders for what were 69001 and 69028 in light of the change to earlier versions. Only been waiting two decades for chassis upgrades but the coreless motor might not like my feedback controllers anyway. You have lost me there regarding a coreless motor. Bernard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broadway Clive Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 You have lost me there regarding a coreless motor. Bernard The new J72 will have a coreless motor attached to a very compact gearbox according to the Bachmann designers on the video where Andy interviews them about the J72, class 91 and 45ton crane. The guy who has done most of the designing is an N scale enthusiast so that may have influenced the choice, as well as the need to make space for the cab detail and electricals. Clive Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
R Marshall Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 Hello. Yes - 1720 was special and did indeed have NER lined green livery and became LNER 8680 and BR 68680, carrying LNER and BR green then BR lined and finally plain black liveries, and was much modelled. It would be a better candidate for the NER livery model. I agree, but I don't think Bachmann have tooled up for the dimensional differences for the 1898/9 batch - great if they have. There's always 68723 and 68736, the well known station pilots, and, of course, 69023 as preserved. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porcy Mane Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 I agree, but I don't think Bachmann have tooled up for the dimensional differences for the 1898/9 batch - great if they have. There's always 68723 and 68736, the well known station pilots, and, of course, 69023 as preserved. I was confused by Andy's video were Bachmanns R&D chap clearly stated that they hadn't tooled for the first twenty (Short Bunker) J72's, Quote; "There are certain ones that we can't do but most of the J72's that were produced, bar the first batch we can do", but then he talks about the early batch from the North Eastern without rear spectacle plate bars. Pics I have of some the first twentyJ72s show bars both fitted and not but also the same with later batches. Anyone want to take a stab about which way they are going? P Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaymzHatstand Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 Anyone want to take a stab about which way they are going? P Depends on how the reverser is positioned (hat, coat, dark glasses and ferry to Belgium!) I suspect that the short bunker would require a lot more tooling adjustment than just detail bits that can be plugged in afterwards or other less awkward changes to do. It's still good to see that it's not a case of 'one shot covers all' moulding and that plenty of variation can, and I suspect will be produced over time. It does create a bit of a minefield for those wanting to renumber of course, but thumbing through books is all part of the fun! I also wonder if driving wheels of a slightly larger diameter (around 6") would be accommodated in the chassis! Food for thought and froth there methinks! Cheers J Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porcy Mane Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 (edited) I also wonder if driving wheels of a slightly larger diameter (around 6") would be accommodated in the chassis! Food for thought and froth there methinks! I know a man that could knock up an etch for a taller splasher but Arthur K kits look very nice. p Edited January 11, 2018 by Porcy Mane Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium ArthurK Posted January 11, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 11, 2018 (edited) Depends on how the reverser is positioned (hat, coat, dark glasses and ferry to Belgium!) I suspect that the short bunker would require a lot more tooling adjustment than just detail bits that can be plugged in afterwards or other less awkward changes to do. It's still good to see that it's not a case of 'one shot covers all' moulding and that plenty of variation can, and I suspect will be produced over time. It does create a bit of a minefield for those wanting to renumber of course, but thumbing through books is all part of the fun! I also wonder if driving wheels of a slightly larger diameter (around 6") would be accommodated in the chassis! Food for thought and froth there methinks! Cheers J In doing the research for my kit of the J71 that I found out that there is more to simply changing wheel diameter to produce a J71 from a J72. The wheel spacing is different and the whole "works" was lowered by three inches and moved forward by one inch meaning that the visible cylinder ends above the footplate were more prominent on the J71. The frames of he J71 had large cut-outs between the wheels (as did the first twenty J72s). The boiler on the J72s was placed one inch further forward so increasing the front frame overhang and the length of the cab by the same amount. And of course there is the thorny problem of the size of the bunker. The tanks and bunker (but not the cab - see above) of the J71 was the same as the early J72s. A lot would depend on whether Bachman produce the short version as well as the long one As an update, my own etched brass J71 is being pushed forward. It is already twelve months overdue as this has been a very traumatic year for me. I have etches for about twelve but they are still missing some castings. ArthurK Edited January 11, 2018 by ArthurK 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaymzHatstand Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 In doing the research for my kit of the J71 that I found out that there is more to simply changing wheel diameter to produce a J71 from a J72. The wheel spacing is different and the whole "works" was lowered by three inches and moved forward by one inch meaning that the visible cylinder ends above the footplate were more prominent on the J71. The frames of he J71 had large cut-outs between the wheels (as did the first twenty J72s). The boiler on the J72s was placed one inch further forward so increasing the front frame overhang and the length of the cab by the same amount. And of course there is the thorny problem of the size of the bunker. The tanks and bunker (but not the cab - see above) of the J71 was the same as the early J72s. A lot would depend on whether Bachman produce the short version as well as the long one As an update, my own etched brass J71 is being pushed forward. It is already twelve months overdue as this has been a very traumatic year for me. I have etches for about twelve but they are still missing some castings. ArthurK It certainly is a minefield of variation and subtle and not so subtle changes and options to be worked through, if indeed that's the final plan. I suspect the mechanism may well have been designed with such things in mind, but only time will tell on that front. It's good news about your 71, having my name down for one, but as I said at the time of ordering, I'm not in a rush and personal delays are completely understandable. Cheers J Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 I am told by a member of this Parish that March's RM contains an announcement that the E1/J72 will also be tooled for the original 20 (1898-1899 batches) and not just the batches from 1914. Ironically, though living not far from Darlington where the original 20 were built, RM does not appear in my local retailer until sometime after the 15th of the month, so I have not seen the announcement. It sounds, though, that I will not need to take a razor saw to the bunker of this new Bachmann offering, but instead may gain one of the original Victorian locomotives, presumably in the original W Worsdell livery! Well, pre-Grouping RTR releases are still not that common, and pre-Great war period releases are considerably rarer, so if these news proves correct, Bachmann is to be doubly commended. Hurray! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold D9020 Nimbus Posted February 8, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 8, 2018 All the RM says is the model is in "as built" condition. The engine number is 2173; doesn't mean anything to me but it might to you! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porcy Mane Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 (edited) All the RM says is the model is in "as built" condition. The engine number is 2173; doesn't mean anything to me but it might to you! 2173, 8690 in the LNER numbering scheme, and finally 68690 under BR was the first of the 1914 long bunker, deep frame J72's. Not one of the original 1898/9 short bunkered, shallow framed twenty. P Edited February 8, 2018 by Porcy Mane Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 2173, 8690 in the LNER numbering scheme, and finally 68690 under BR was the first of the 1914 long bunker, deep frame J72's. Not one of the original 1898/9 short bunkered, shallow framed twenty. P Sounds like I have been misinformed! Sorry to set the hares running. That's a 'no' to an original E1 then! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium ArthurK Posted February 8, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 8, 2018 (edited) Quick check - nineteen of the first twenty were numbered 17XX by the NER, the first was 462 ArthurK Edited February 8, 2018 by ArthurK Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 The plot thickens ... Well, I have now caught up with March's RM. It says is "a further tooling variation to cater for locomotives in 'as built' North Eastern Railway Class E1 trim ... No.2173 in NER green livery will join a trio of J72 versions ..." I have also seem March's Model Rail, and it says: Tooling changes mean that all key details from the first North Eastern Railway 'E1s' of 1898 to the last .... That said, the NE Green loco that has been announced, 2173, was most certainly a Darlington product of 1914, not 1898. Is it just wishful thinking on my part? Am I just expecting MR's reporting of Bachmann's news to be more accurate than its reviews?!? [see 'Ashford Gothic'] Possibly the tooling suite will allow for the first 20 locos to be represented at some point. Joking aside, the reference to 1898 is too specific to be a misunderstanding on the part of MR, surely? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium ArthurK Posted February 12, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 12, 2018 The plot thickens ... Well, I have now caught up with March's RM. It says is "a further tooling variation to cater for locomotives in 'as built' North Eastern Railway Class E1 trim ... No.2173 in NER green livery will join a trio of J72 versions ..." I have also seem March's Model Rail, and it says: Tooling changes mean that all key details from the first North Eastern Railway 'E1s' of 1898 to the last .... That said, the NE Green loco that has been announced, 2173, was most certainly a Darlington product of 1914, not 1898. Is it just wishful thinking on my part? Am I just expecting MR's reporting of Bachmann's news to be more accurate than its reviews?!? [see 'Ashford Gothic'] Possibly the tooling suite will allow for the first 20 locos to be represented at some point. Joking aside, the reference to 1898 is too specific to be a misunderstanding on the part of MR, surely? Seems the reviewers are getting very confused about the Bachman J72. There were three basic versions built. Those built before 1900, those built after 1914 (including those built by the LNER) and those built by BR. The first batch of twenty were put into service before 1900. The last of these was 1763 (68689). This batch had the shorter bunker and had the frames cut away between the driving wheels The second batch was built from 1914 with Raven in charge. These and all others were built with the extended bunker (but not the frames). The latter were however strengthened by not cutting away the frames between the driving wheels. The first of this batch was 2173. The last batch built by BR had only minor differences from the second batch. The most obvious difference was the appearance of external sandboxes under the footplate behind the cab steps. Less obvious was the disappearance of the sanding rods to the front splasher/sandboxes. This batch had Downs sanding with sand delivered by steam pressure. Three of the earlier engines 68675 (1st batch) 68732 and 68744 were also fitted with Downs sanding and external sandboxes at the same time as 69001 appeared from Darlington, ArthurK 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porcy Mane Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 (edited) Seems the reviewers are getting very confused about the Bachman J72. As I said in my post above, even the Bachmann R&D chep had me confused (easily done, I admit) by his statements in Andy Y's video in this post. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/129673-Bachmann-review-of-outstanding-models/page-1&do=findComment&comment=2983353 I suppose for those that are bothered about this, a quick call to Bachmann might elicit a definitive answer. For what it's worth, I still think no short bunker version will be forthcoming. (With this first tranche of re-tools). P Edited February 12, 2018 by Porcy Mane Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Andy Hayter Posted February 12, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 12, 2018 This was the pre-production model on show at Warley 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floreat Industria Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 This looks like the one they are going to issue pretending it is in NER green, as it has no safety valve cover and what looks like a smokebox door wheel. I would love one in NER green but will have to wait until such time as the short bunker early version may be released. The works grey photographs mislead many people into thinking they actually went into service painted like that. They went to a lot of trouble for the photos and then presumably just painted black over it all, which must have been rather depressing for the paint shop. The grey frames always give the game away. There are the old models of green 581 which again was based on a works grey photo. If anyone could find a photo of any of the works grey locos actually in service in green I would be extremely pleased, but I don't know of any. I will have to wait for 68723 or 68736 to be made for a green one if they are just making the long bunker. I loved watching them at York and Newcastle - two of my regular teenage trips from Darlington. I often visited a relative who had a flat overlooking Darlington scrapyard and was very sad when the J72s started rolling in in numbers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floreat Industria Posted March 24, 2018 Share Posted March 24, 2018 I see that the new Bachmann site is now showing April or June 2019 as the release dates. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floreat Industria Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 31-062 68696 (formerly LNER 2179) steam heating and vacuum brake fitted 1955 but only allocated to Stockton then Thornaby when it opened for its few years left. Pilot work at Stockton envisaged? I've just got a copy of the 1953 Stockton loco workings document and duty S.5 P (North Stockton Sidings, South End and Local Works) states "Vacuum fitted engine - preparing trains, collecting and delivering traffic at local works and sidings", so that solves why Stockton needed a vacuum fitted loco. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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