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The Brown, the Red, and the Grey


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light red colour is adopted for the wagon stock

 

So what is 'light red'? Is this compatible with the 'warm red' mentioned elsewhere along with the 'only decidedly red trucks going'. Id pretty well convinced myself that these were all descriptions of red lead paint...

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So what is 'light red'? Is this compatible with the 'warm red' mentioned elsewhere along with the 'only decidedly red trucks going'. Id pretty well convinced myself that these were all descriptions of red lead paint...

 

I recently obtained the full article from the National Archives, and asked myself the same question. The article includes descriptions of other company liveries, which could give a clue to the author's interpretation of various shades of red. 

 

The only other wagons he describes as "light red" are those of the SER. An example of how one modeller interprets SER wagon red can be seen here: 

https://serailkits.wordpress.com/gallery-wagons/ - but of course, that is also subjective.

 

Incidentally, the author describes SER brake vans as "dark red brown", suggesting either that (i) the SER gave brake vans a different colour just as the GWR did, or (ii) that the author has simply seen different degrees of weathered red!

 

The author calls Midland engines "dark red", and Midland carriages "dark chocolate red", while North staffs wagons are "dark red brown". 

 

After reading through all this one gets the impression that these terms are simply one man's attempt to describe a livery as best as possible, rather than being based on any systematic terminology. Or several men - there is no author's name to the article, and perhaps the author just leaned over to his colleague and said: "So John, you were in the West Country last month, how would you describe the colour of the GWR's wagons?".  :) 

 

Once I have run the article through some OCR software I'll make a PDF available here - along with some other quotes from the Railway Magazine on similar issues.

Edited by Mikkel
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That  'S.E.R. red' looks just the sort of colour I imagine for GWR 'light red' *. I would think that contemporary observers knew what red oxide/ red lead (the same thing?) looked like and, referring to 'light red', intended a somewhat paler colour. Weathering (quite pronounced in some parts of the GWR empire) would further alter the tint. (I have seen horizontal trees in Cornwall!)

 

All the above is surmise of course, but until we find a sample (unlikely) of the actual colour we can only guess.

 

* and fail to achieve - my red wagons (all two of them!) are too bright. They looked OK when the paint was wet....

 

EDIT

 

Browsing the link, I see the GWR was not alone in building square horse boxes....

Edited by Il Grifone
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I recently obtained the full article from the National Archives, and asked myself the same question. The article includes descriptions of other company liveries, which could give a clue to the author's interpretation of various shades of red. 

 

The only other wagons he describes as "light red" are those of the SER. An example of how one modeller interprets SER wagon red can be seen here: 

https://serailkits.wordpress.com/gallery-wagons/ - but of course, that is also subjective.

 

Incidentally, the author describes SER brake vans as "dark red brown", suggesting either that (i) the SER gave brake vans a different colour just as the GWR did, or (ii) that the author has simply seen different degrees of weathered red!

 

 

The SER brake-vans were probably painted in the carriage lake, which is a purple colour that looks brown in some kinds of illumination.

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Sorry about the grotty photo, that I may have posted before. These were intended as freelance wagons owned by a private company, not the GWR, and were sprayed with an aerosol can of Hycote acrylic car Red Primer about 30 years ago. I suppose that's about the colour we're talking about isn't it? I think it was agreed earlier that the red probably became more grey over time, so is this the starting point to be toned down with thin coats of rather patchy grey?

post-7091-0-44362200-1508411411.jpg

 

 

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Some years ago, I transcribed the "Company Liveries" series of articles from "Moore's Monthly Magazine"/"The Locomotive Magazine". Here is the GWR section:

 

[snip]

 

Further to Mikkel's post, Mikkel, MikeOxon and I recently did a sort of 'round-robin' PM discussion/analysis of the collated snippets that Mikkel had kindly produced from the Railway Magazine archive.

 

Whilst there were a number of livery aspects that were useful, it became quickly obvious to me that many of the observations recorded in the Railway Magazine were anecdotal, amateurish, and imprecise. So when I read that flanking lines on loco lining were 'yellow' and that tops of Swindon chimneys were 'brass', I become very sceptical about the accuracy and authenticity on the remainder of what a particular observer is trying to impart.

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I would think that contemporary observers knew what red oxide/ red lead (the same thing?) looked like

Red Oxide is an Oxide of Iron Fe2O3 (essentially rust).  Red Lead is lead Oxide Pb3O4.  So no they're not the same either chemically or colour wise.

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Red Oxide is an Oxide of Iron Fe2O3 (essentially rust).  Red Lead is lead Oxide Pb3O4.  So no they're not the same either chemically or colour wise.

 

There's a comparison of different red pigments on this link.

 

The problem is that pigments can very quite a lot, depending on how they are produced, and they also change colour due to reactions with light and atmospheric gases. 

 

There's another selection of earth pigment colours at this link

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I think that makes it pretty clear, and as the next change in wagon lettering was in 1904 doesn't leave much doubt.

 

Interesting about the two shades of green for Swindon painted locos.

 

The Locomotive Magazine article only establishes that GWR wagons were red up to the middle of the 1890s. The next change in wagon livery actually came around this time in the form of cast plates replacing painted letters. According to Slinn’s Great Western Way (2nd edition), they were introduced experimentally in 1894 on CROCODILES and PW vehicles. They were applied to new wagons from 1899 until as late as 1905 (and probably on some rebuilds as well).

 

 

The change from red to grey for wagons may have occurred when cast plates were extended to the wagons in 1899 (if not before). This is suggested by the photo of the iron MINK on page 100 of GWW. The cast G.W.R plate has been removed and replaced by painted 25” letters, though the other plates were left in place. The shadow of the cast plate is quite noticeable and seems to show that the MINK was painted grey sometime before the plate was removed. The shadow itself is noticeably darker in shade, perhaps suggesting the original red colour.

 

Dana

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The Locomotive Magazine article only establishes that GWR wagons were red up to the middle of the 1890s. The next change in wagon livery actually came around this time in the form of cast plates replacing painted letters. According to Slinn’s Great Western Way (2nd edition), they were introduced experimentally in 1894 on CROCODILES and PW vehicles. They were applied to new wagons from 1899 until as late as 1905 (and probably on some rebuilds as well).

 

 

The change from red to grey for wagons may have occurred when cast plates were extended to the wagons in 1899 (if not before). This is suggested by the photo of the iron MINK on page 100 of GWW. The cast G.W.R plate has been removed and replaced by painted 25” letters, though the other plates were left in place. The shadow of the cast plate is quite noticeable and seems to show that the MINK was painted grey sometime before the plate was removed. The shadow itself is noticeably darker in shade, perhaps suggesting the original red colour.

 

Dana

 

You're trying to complicate things again! I suppose you could be right though.

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The change from red to grey for wagons may have occurred when cast plates were extended to the wagons in 1899 (if not before). This is suggested by the photo of the iron MINK on page 100 of GWW. The cast G.W.R plate has been removed and replaced by painted 25” letters, though the other plates were left in place. The shadow of the cast plate is quite noticeable and seems to show that the MINK was painted grey sometime before the plate was removed. The shadow itself is noticeably darker in shade, perhaps suggesting the original red colour.

 

This is a rather seductive argument; I like the close observation of the photo. I happen to have the 3rd edition of GWR Goods Wagons on loan while building, painting (red) and numbering some Great Western wagons. The photo you describe appears as Plate 492 on p. 369; it shows No. 11258, built as part of Lot 217 in 1900. That build date suggests it had the plates from new; it seems unlikely that it would have received a full repaint between then and receiving the large G W initials at some date from 1904 onwards. I can dream up several scenarios:

 

1. Painted grey on building. Received large G W without a full repaint. The cast G.W.R plate was removed at the same time, revealing a clean, unweathered patch.

 

2. Painted red on building. Received large G W without a full repaint, i.e. while still red. Cast plate removed etc. as  in scenario 1.

 

3. Painted red on building. Repainted grey and given large G W, after which someone realised they'd forgotten to remove the cast G.W.R plate, whereupon they did so, revealing a red patch.

 

3 seems too whimsical; 2 will have me burnt for a heretic, so...

 

Question: was the wagon painted before the plates were bolted on, or after? Why can't I see any bolt holes where the plate has been removed? And how does the plate sit relative to the line of rivet heads on the bottom of the side sheeting?

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So what is 'light red'? Is this compatible with the 'warm red' mentioned elsewhere along with the 'only decidedly red trucks going'. Id pretty well convinced myself that these were all descriptions of red lead paint...

Just spotted this.

 

Some years ago, the BGS examined a contemporaneous model of a  GW wagon. The colour was described as "Rizla" red.

 

MarkAustin

Edited by MarkAustin
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Did the BGS mean this?:

 

attachicon.gifrizla-red.png

 

or maybe this?:

 

attachicon.gifrizla-red2.png

First one is startling! Second one looks good to me.

 

 

Not by me  :)  It's how I have interpreted the photo. I was looking forward to raise eyebrows with a model of it  :locomotive:

 

Hmm, that sounded a bit flippant, now that I see it again.

 

I'm actually serious though. If GWR wagons were red up to 1904, the photo of the Iron Mink mentioned by Dana in post 68 suggests to me that the GWR painted the large "GW" letters directly onto the existing red livery on that particular van - as indicated by Stephen's option 2 in post 70. I know it would have been unusual to do so, but exactly because the GWR used cast plates at this time, it would have been a fairly straightforward thing to do. The fact that only the cast plate with the "G.W.R" has been removed - rather than all the plates - seems to support that.

 

On page 417 of GWR Goods Wagons (1998 edition), there is a photo of a GWR W1 Cattle Van, built in 1904 (the year of the change to 25in letters. It has the large "GW" but on the end the cast plates have been retained, and the side number is on the solebar (on a cast plate I assume, although the photo is too small to be sure).

 

Whether this one is also in red livery is an open question. The caption states that in the original print, bolt holes can be seen on the solebars for where the small "G.W.R" cast plate should have been. The wagon was built in 1904, so could have been turned out in red with cast plates, then later the same year had the large "GW" added and the plate removed. The lack of a shadow could be explained by the red livery still being new.

 

Alternatively, the wagon may have been progressing through the works during the livery change, and so was painted grey with the large GW at the last minute. But then why use the cast plates? Because they were already on order?

 

Oh boy, this is nerdy stuff  :)

Edited by Mikkel
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Not by me  :)  It's how I have interpreted the photo. I was looking forward to raise eyebrows with a model of it  :locomotive:

 

My apologies for stealing your thunder!

 

Did the BGS mean this?:

 

attachicon.gifrizla-red.png

 

or maybe this?:

 

attachicon.gifrizla-red2.png

 

The second colour patch seems to me close to online images of minium (red lead) pigment - these do seem to be at the orange end of red, as do the wagons I've painted using Halfords red primer in strong sunlight. The photos I posted were taken under artificial (but white not yellow) lighting - these look quite a warm red to me. Right now I'm looking at them indoors on an overcast day and I'd say they are brick red - that is to say, a good match for the brickwork of some Metcalfe warehouses they're standing near. So, lighting conditions seem to be a big factor in perception of this colour. I also wonder what would happen if I lined the outside-framed van out in the style of outside-framed Midland NPCS - I doubt it would magically transform into crimson lake but...  

 

There was a superb photo of engines outside Derby works, published  as the centre spread of the Midland Railway Society Journal No. 63 (Winter2016). The photo can be dated with confidence to 1888 and there are good reasons for supposing that all the engines are red rather than green. Nevertheless there is a startling range from quite pale - strongly contrasting with the smokebox colour - to indistinguishable from black.

 

This all goes to show just how little we can really infer from either photographs or contemporary descriptions. Where did the Great Western buy its paint? How many tons of red lead a year did it use? Is there a sudden drop-off in quantity purchased c. 1898/1904/whenever?

 

Hmm, that sounded a bit flippant, now that I see it again.

 

I'm actually serious though. If GWR wagons were red up to 1904, the photo of the Iron Mink mentioned by Dana in post 68 suggests to me that the GWR painted the large "GW" letters directly onto the existing red livery on that particular van - as indicated by Stephen's option 2 in post 70. I know it would have been unusual to do so, but exactly because the GWR used cast plates at this time, it would have been a fairly straightforward thing to do. The fact that only the cast plate with the "G.W.R" has been removed - rather than all the plates - seems to support that.

 

On page 417 of GWR Goods Wagons (1998 edition), there is a photo of a GWR W1 Cattle Van, built in 1904 (the year of the change to 25in letters. It has the large "GW" but on the end the cast plates have been retained, and the side number is on the solebar (on a cast plate I assume, although the photo is too small to be sure).

 

Whether this one is also in red livery is an open question. The caption states that in the original print, bolt holes can be seen on the solebars for where the small "G.W.R" cast plate should have been. The wagon was built in 1904, so could have been turned out in red with cast plates, then later the same year had the large "GW" added and the plate removed. The lack of a shadow could be explained by the red livery still being new.

 

Alternatively, the wagon may have been progressing through the works during the livery change, and so was painted grey with the large GW at the last minute. But then why use the cast plates? Because they were already on order?

 

Oh boy, this is nerdy stuff  :)

 

It's a very light looking colour - evidently a bit over-exposed? It doesn't seem correspond to either the very dark grey that newly-painted grey wagons are supposed to have been, or to red seen by orthochromatic photographic emulsion.

 

Perhaps we should give this up and go model Caledonian locomotives...

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This is all very confusing. I'd decided that I was going to be using red on all my GWR wagons that didn't have 25" letters, but now it seem to be up in the air again. It seems like I'm safe with my broad gauge layout, but the EM one set in 1905 is less certain.

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Where did the Great Western buy its paint? How many tons of red lead a year did it use? Is there a sudden drop-off in quantity purchased c. 1898/1904/whenever?

 

Great question, that's a very interesting lead to pursue. What would be the starting point I wonder, have such accounts been preserved?

  

 

This is all very confusing. I'd decided that I was going to be using red on all my GWR wagons that didn't have 25" letters, but now it seem to be up in the air again.  It seems like I'm safe with my broad gauge layout, but the EM one set in 1905 is less certain.

 

In my opinion, your rule of thumb still applies. It's just that there may have been a small number of odd ones in the transition period.

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