Signalling for modellers who don't know much about signalling

[Pannier Tank]

Some useful information is available here https://signalbox.org/

Edited August 31, 2017 by Pannier Tank

[Junctionmad]

Some useful information is available here https://signalbox.org/

 

with respect and in the context of the thread  description , " Signalling for modellers who don't know much about signalling", sites like signalbox.org are quite complex for such modellers to navigate and even more complex to then " apply " the knowledge contained so as to signal a typical model railway layout.  There is a vast amount of prototypical signalling information on the web, you dont even need the books mentioned in this thread.

 

However the problem for the mainstream non signal literate modeller is how to " distill " all that prototypical operation and explanation and apply it in a meaningful way to their​ layout.   Most modellers can arrive at a decision to select semaphore , UQ or LQ, or colour light operation, based on their intended timeframes and regional interests , many however cant even easily do that , and may simply choose an option that they like or is easy to implement , colour light signals often fall into that category.

 

Look at the many requests for " help , please  help me add signalling to my layout " . The layout in question  may be multi regional , varying timescales , have a track plan that bears no prototypical comparison etc etc .  These are the people that are trying to implement simple signalling but at the same time there are limits to their interest and expertise in the area.  What they need is what are the key types of signal pertinent to model railways ( hence ether nonsense of  talking about siting distances etc ) 

 

Hence rather then suggest treatise on prototype operation , whats actually needed is a ( A) heres the common types of signals ( by era, and region ) , heres their primary purpose, here are some guidelines to where to position them ( examples etc ) .  and (B) here how in simple terms , these signals controlled trains and the basic rules behind them 

[PaulRhB]

I definitely agree with the point of the post. It's all very well saying "post your layout and people in the know will be able to help", but some basic knowledge is still needed in order to really understand the reply, unless you just want "stick these signals here and there, and I'm not interested in making them operational". And it can also influence the design of the layout in the first place (along with numerous other factors). So I think the feedback should be in a more constructive manner than the "OP is wrong" - that sounds more like telling off. Then use that feedback from the experts to update the post.

 

Is there a decent railway wiki anywhere that could be used for this purpose? (although then it becomes just another site to search through amongst many)

The aim is admirable but the reason Signalling is an issue is that it's the subtle variations that matter. The guys have pointed people to the best sources simply because books are the only thing so far to cover the breadth. Posts get diluted by the responses making it hard to follow the logic unless it's one big post.

Simon who is a recently qualified Signalling designer is working on a book as mentioned already and look at the discussion going on in that thread about how to best present the rules.

I know a little about presenting the complexity of understanding a relatively simple system from working out German HSB Signalling from scratch and it was all the extras that created the hardest work

 

The rules are fairly simple but there are a lot of them and a load of variations on that. Take a simple overlap for a signal and then there are short overlaps, requiring an approach control and swinging overlaps. Then take a signal which has several styles, several regional differences in how they are mounted and the simple rule suddenly looks complicated. To be accurate you need to define a lot of bits. I'm happy to offer help on SR Signalling, RhB or Harz practices as I'm familiar with the variations but I tend to stand back on GWR or NE etc because although I could get probably 70% right it would be noticeable to those familiar with it.

In this respect a forum is better to get your installation very accurate because it can offer much more specific advice on the style of signal, where it goes and how to operate. Putting that all in a book for each region would make an immense volume whose price would put people off. Sadly finding the time to put that in a post is the problem.

So the OP set out to try but got a few details slightly off, if the original post can be edited, expanded and updated then it can be very useful but it's going to be a huge post, like Simons book, and leave the rest of the thread as the development?

[St. Simon]

Simon who is a recently qualified Signalling designer

 

Hi Paul,

 

Although I soon will be a qualified Signalling Designer, at the moment I'm technically only an assistant (but I am doing the work of a Signalling Designer!)

 

Simon

[Pannier Tank]

with respect and in the context of the thread  description , " Signalling for modellers who don't know much about signalling", sites like signalbox.org are quite complex for such modellers to navigate and even more complex to then " apply " the knowledge contained so as to signal a typical model railway layout.  There is a vast amount of prototypical signalling information on the web, you dont even need the books mentioned in this thread.

 

 

Apologies for trying to be helpful, you have already taken a swipe at me for commenting on the "other thread" and now this one so I'll not bother commenting any further.

[The Johnster]

I think I'm in over my head, and will not post any more stuff on this subject.  

 

But it might be a good idea for someone who knows more than me and is better at putting the information over to people who know less than me, if they can be prevailed upon and have the time and motivation (I realise that a combination of those 3 conditions is a big ask) to take up the baton and run with it! 

 

One cannot expect models made by those who do not have a basic grounding in this very complex matter (though it can be broken down into bite size chunks) to include properly sited and placed signals, or to not show impossible aspects, or for highly dodgy moves to not take place on such layouts, and it is my view that unless someone takes the time and effort to explain matters in an easily digestable form to such modellers.  One often sees track layouts in posts asking for assistance in signalling that actually cannot be signalled in the convention sense of British practice, because they were drawn up by someone who does not have the knowledge to take it into account at the planning stage; one can hardly blame them for that!

 

And now I've started a row, which was definitely not my intention!

[bike2steam]

At least yer tried, which is more than I'd've done.

[The Stationmaster]

I for one , understand the point the OP is trying to get across, and I think criticism of his post is a little too harsh ( in reality the primary glaring error was the siting distance of the distant , a number virtually irrelevant to most modellers)

 

I would agree with ( him ) , and based on the knowledge in my club for example , that very many modellers have little understanding of semaphore signalling , ( and even less understanding of more modern systems like TCB , MAS , etc )

 

Given most modellers do not in fact implement any " block system " , what's actually needed is a simple treatise on basic signalling , as it would apply to typical model railway layouts.

 

Hence many modellers need simple guidance on how to situate the home signal, the section starter etc , where advanced starters, and outer homes etc might be used and where to use junction signals etc. while I accept there are both regional

and timescale differences , this is not really of great concern to a modeller looking at implementing basic , realistic signalling for a model railway. Those modellers looking for prototypical authenticity are clearly not at this " basic " level of interest and will , one suspects, research this aspect themselves.

 

More advanced topics , could look at ,ground signals , subsiderary signals , especially calling on , etc. But again, in the context of the " average " railway modeller

 

Most layouts with attempts at signalling , fall down because of two things , incorrect siting of signals, rendering many impractical, or lack of understanding of how to operate signals , ( I use the term , " drive to signals " ) , so with semaphores etc , you have incorrect sequences of clearing stop signals , lack of understanding of how signals are used to " check " trains etc. ( a classic example is the belief that a platform starter is a method to stop trains at stations for example )

 

discussions about complex and esoteric signalling, the operation of the various block systems and more modern train control , are really lost on many modellers and while signalling aficionados, like myself , appreciate all the sutleties of this topic , most modellers have little or no interest at this level.

 

Regrettably it wasn't the only error and things got compounded, and subsequently confused, by referring to 'the Home Signal' rather than a stops signal while starting with a  distant signal (even with correct distances or explanations doesn't really help either).

 

Signalling is a straightforward subject at its most basic level and in my view it is critical to get the basics right in order to aid understanding of the more complex areas of the subject.  In other words if you can't get the basics right don't bother and certainly don't bring in inaccuracies.  Sorry to sound so harsh but I've been at the game of teaching this sort of stuff to complete novices for a long time and there are ways and means of doing the job simply - the last thing you want is confusion.  And referring to a stop signal as a Home Signal without consideration of function is not the way to do it.

 

And of course the simple fact is, particularly when it comes to semaphore signalling in use with a number of different block systems the very reasons why signals are in particular places and worked in a certain way is sometimes down the block system as well as traffic needs.  and of course if you go right back to the real basics that is why railways have signals - a bit of thought and some simple explanations of that can go a long way to helping understanding.  Equally if course if you don't want signals on your layout that is a choice any modeller is free to make and - as some people delight in telling us - many of us are already using an inaccurate track gauge anyway. 

[Clive Mortimore]

I found that this simple illustration form "Railway Signalling and Communication" 1st edition  price 8/- to be very helpful as a starter to knowing where to position your signals on a model railway. 2 and 12 are the respective Up and Down home signals and 3 and 11 the starters. As noted by other posters the home signals are placed as to protect the points and any potential movement over them. The starter signals are placed at the longest train length to allow for any shunting without encroaching into the next block section. The distance signals speak for themselves. 

 

 

The book relies on LNER practice, LMS practice would possibly have a triple stack of shunting signals where number 4 is. One for each route , the LNER used just one, hopefully the driver knew where he was to go. This does show one of the many variations that can be found so my advice is to read as much as you can about signalling and ask Stationmaster Mike or one of the other signal experts very kindly to check what you are planning to do. 

Edited August 30, 2017 by Clive Mortimore

[milkman matt]

This is my source of reference. Well written and simple to understand.


 

[The Stationmaster]

I definitely agree with the point of the post. It's all very well saying "post your layout and people in the know will be able to help", but some basic knowledge is still needed in order to really understand the reply, unless you just want "stick these signals here and there, and I'm not interested in making them operational". And it can also influence the design of the layout in the first place (along with numerous other factors). So I think the feedback should be in a more constructive manner than the "OP is wrong" - that sounds more like telling off. Then use that feedback from the experts to update the post.

 

Is there a decent railway wiki anywhere that could be used for this purpose? (although then it becomes just another site to search through amongst many)

 

Regrettably there seem to be some very poor websites when it comes to trying to explain 'signalling and where signals go and why?'  However as several of us have pointed out there has been a very good book on the subject - alas long out of print but findable - which does a pretty good job.  If you grasp the basics from that then you can more easily ask questions about and understand the the answers to them in respect of signalling for your own railway.

 

I do take your point very much about  updating the original post but to be honest I wouldn't start from there anyway and correcting what is there would take far more work than starting from scratch.  Many years ago I was given a proof copy of a book to 'check' before it went for print (nothing to do with signalling but very much a railway subject then in the news and about which masses of information were available).  By the time I got to page 30 or thereabouts I realised that I had corrected so many errors of fact I'd probably done as much work on it as the author - in fact probably considerably more.  Checking is one thing, editing a commercial book (without fee or credit) is quite another, so it went back to our PR people with a note saying that we shouldn't endorse the book if the publisher decided to proceed with it.  It is obviously different on here where like many others I give freely of my time and knowledge but one thing I always do, unless I include words which indicate otherwise, is checking my facts and what I am saying with original source documents or known secondary sources (which I usually name).  The fact that I have at various time over the years been involved in reviewing and re-writing some of those original source dcuments is to my advantage because -within reason - I at least know where to look (and I also know where not to look - probably just as important).  So maybe it's time to dust off that 100,000 word manuscript and the several hundred photos taken specially to go with it? 

 

PS In that manuscript Distant Signals do not appear until Section E of Chapter 3 although Stop signals really make their presence felt in Section A of that chapter; single lines don't appear until Chapter 7.

Edited August 30, 2017 by The Stationmaster

[bike2steam]

I found that this simple illustration form "Railway Signalling and Communication" 1st edition  price 8/- to be very helpful as a starter to knowing where to position your signals on a model railway. 2 and 12 are the respective Up and Down home signals and 3 and 11 the starters. As noted by other posters the home signals are placed as to protect the points and any potential movement over them. The starter signals are placed at the longest train length to allow for any shunting without encroaching into the next block section. The distance signals speak for themselves. 

 

typical station.png

 

The book relies on LNER practice, LMS practice would possibly have a triple stack of shunting signals where number 4 is. One for each route , the LNER used just one, hopefully the driver knew where he was to go. This does show one of the many variations that can be found so my advice is to read as much as you can about signalling and ask Stationmaster Mike or one of the other signal experts very kindly to check what you are planning to do. 

Yes, the Peter Kay ( no not that one !) reprints of this book, and the one's by Lewis, and the Raynor-Wilson books in A4 softback, about 25 years ago are very useful if you can get your hands on them, but as I mentioned before the expanded one by Lewis has been redone more recently, I found them very useful when I was playing with the full-size stuff at Swanage, now useful with the similar stuff on the model layouts I build  .  

Edited August 30, 2017 by bike2steam

[RailWest]

>>>As noted by other posters the home signals are placed as to protect the points and any potential movement over them. The starter signals are placed at the longest train length to allow for any shunting without encroaching into the next block section......

 

With respect, that sort of statement illustrates exactly the sort of problem that occurs when trying to give a 'simple' explanation.

 

For example....many 'Home' signals do not protect points at all, but simply the 'signal section' between that stop signal and the next stop signal.

Although there were indeed many stations without a (Home) stop signal in rear of the platform, as on the Up line in the example diagram, I would argue that it was a less common arrangement and therefore not the best illustration.

There were many examples where Starting signals were NOT sufficiently far out to enable a train to shunt without going into the block section - hence the common use of Shunt Ahead arms by the GWR for example.

What the diagram by itself, and even the accompanying comments, does not make clear - for example - is that you could not allow a Down train to approach No 12 if you had a train in the platform shunting the sidings (fouling the Clearing Point). You need to understand the basics of block working if you are going to operate the layout in any sort of accurate fashion.

 

Sadly, one of the biggest problems that I encounter with layouts at exhibitions etc is where the builder has gone to a heritage railway for inspiration. He sees something and replicates it, unaware of why the prototype has done that and/or ignorant of the fact that what he sees is a modern interpretation of the rules using older style equipment. Sometimes he gets well-meant but misguided 'advice' from a volunteer there, who knows - or thinks he knows - what that signal does, but not why it is used as or where it is.

[Norm81]

I think in 11 (now 12) posts, we have just illustrated why signalling is seen as such a 'black art' by many modellers.

 

My own personal 'bible'. First read it over 30 years ago and I have thereafter always understood as much as I need to know for my modelling purposes:

IMG_5567.JPG

Have a copy winging it's way to me, hopefully I can make sense of it!

[Compound2632]

I find these discussions sometimes become confusing for the layperson because contributors provide examples or explanations that belong to different periods. Many modellers of the steam-era railway will want to know how to correctly signal a layout in accordance with the general principles of mechanical signalling and absolute block working as established by the last decade of the 19th century and now nearly completely extinct. How much of a modern signal engineer's training is relevant to that? (I ask as a layman seeking clarification!) It's also true that many modellers seeking advice on signalling are starting from an improbable track plan, so perhaps a thread on 'station layouts and signalling for modellers who are eager to learn about both' is called for?

[TheSignalEngineer]

>>>As noted by other posters the home signals are placed as to protect the points and any potential movement over them. The starter signals are placed at the longest train length to allow for any shunting without encroaching into the next block section......

 

With respect, that sort of statement illustrates exactly the sort of problem that occurs when trying to give a 'simple' explanation.

 

For example....many 'Home' signals do not protect points at all, but simply the 'signal section' between that stop signal and the next stop signal.

Although there were indeed many stations without a (Home) stop signal in rear of the platform, as on the Up line in the example diagram, I would argue that it was a less common arrangement and therefore not the best illustration.

There were many examples where Starting signals were NOT sufficiently far out to enable a train to shunt without going into the block section - hence the common use of Shunt Ahead arms by the GWR for example.

What the diagram by itself, and even the accompanying comments, does not make clear - for example - is that you could not allow a Down train to approach No 12 if you had a train in the platform shunting the sidings (fouling the Clearing Point). You need to understand the basics of block working if you are going to operate the layout in any sort of accurate fashion.

 

 

Give a track layout to three signal engineers and you would probably come up with ten different options of how the job could be done given the lie of the land and traffic requirements. I came up with eight combinations for the main signals alone on the sketch in Clive's post, including the one shown which was a basic option. An almost identical layout of signals was used at Hucknall Town on the GNR, Put it on a real site and all other things such as topography come into play. Add traffic requirements and it changes again. Remember that these railways were private businesses, so money mattered and they didn't provide signals if they could get away without them. Putting signals further out also increased the cost so if it wasn't necessary it didn't get done.

[Junctionmad]

Apologies for trying to be helpful, you have already taken a swipe at me for commenting on the "other thread" and now this one so I'll not bother commenting any further.

 

I was merely and I thought respectfully posting out the issue of directing people that the title of this thread was directed at , to a resource that is in essence a treatise on prototype operation 

[Junctionmad]

>>>As noted by other posters the home signals are placed as to protect the points and any potential movement over them. The starter signals are placed at the longest train length to allow for any shunting without encroaching into the next block section......

 

With respect, that sort of statement illustrates exactly the sort of problem that occurs when trying to give a 'simple' explanation.

 

For example....many 'Home' signals do not protect points at all, but simply the 'signal section' between that stop signal and the next stop signal.

Although there were indeed many stations without a (Home) stop signal in rear of the platform, as on the Up line in the example diagram, I would argue that it was a less common arrangement and therefore not the best illustration.

There were many examples where Starting signals were NOT sufficiently far out to enable a train to shunt without going into the block section - hence the common use of Shunt Ahead arms by the GWR for example.

What the diagram by itself, and even the accompanying comments, does not make clear - for example - is that you could not allow a Down train to approach No 12 if you had a train in the platform shunting the sidings (fouling the Clearing Point). You need to understand the basics of block working if you are going to operate the layout in any sort of accurate fashion.

 

Sadly, one of the biggest problems that I encounter with layouts at exhibitions etc is where the builder has gone to a heritage railway for inspiration. He sees something and replicates it, unaware of why the prototype has done that and/or ignorant of the fact that what he sees is a modern interpretation of the rules using older style equipment. Sometimes he gets well-meant but misguided 'advice' from a volunteer there, who knows - or thinks he knows - what that signal does, but not why it is used as or where it is.

with respect , you answer shows why newbies are going to get confused fast 

 

take learning to drive a car, does the instructor try and explain all types of cars, from F1 to electric , explain all the gearbox types, shift patterns and so forth, no .  whats explained is a simple , generic and commonplace arrangement, .  The same is true for signalling. what a railway modeller  wants  is to understand the commonplace basics and the " normal " siting of signals , i.e. where the Home might go in " most " cases , where should starters etc be placed and how to situate junction signals etc .  Then he needs a simple treatise on how to operate such signals 

 

Yes, there are all sorts of prototype complications, regional and time scale variations, but the basics are just that , the basics 

[runs as required]

It is a pity that Johnster's proposition is getting so P'd upon.

I was lucky enough to have been tutored by an old signalman member of the family in the principles of absolute block working on a conventional double track through station with a traditional goods yard.

 

But it is obvious that the ever popular space saving BLT is more complicated.

I notice how a lot of layouts don't bother  with signal sat all - others have signalling merely as decoration. Only a few at exhibitions I notice have rigorous signal operation controlling train movements

 

I wonder whether there may be several 'model' layouts (in the sense of a model byelaw house type) that could be developed in a thread such as this with the benefit of a whole array of operational railway workers. Thes could show optimum signal box position and signal positions (type and nomenaclature) that may be a guide for modellers planning their own layouts.

 

May I suggest the simplest (apart from single engine in steam) might be:

• single line; single platform BLT with run around.
• ditto but with goods yard
• as above but with branch line diverging after two bracket starter signal
   
• two platform; double line BLT
• et seq

dh

[PaulRhB]

That's inline with what I suggested to Simon on his thread. Illustrated examples annotated as with why things are where they are are a lot easier than lumps of text to understand. Just writing down the principles gets confusing fast and I've seen a few layouts where basic misunderstandings have lead to overcomplication and improbable siting.

It's a great idea to cover Signalling here but as others pointed out the thread is titled as a how to but there are errors that don't become apparent without reading it all. So it is likely to cause the confusion he's trying to solve. Re title and work up examples within the thread that can then be added to the first post to create an accurate resource would be good but it needs to be clear what is a 'proof read' example

To be honest a resource of original Signalling diagrams such as those produced by the late George Pryer are a great place to start as they show a variety of real locations and solutions. In that respect the SR & GWR modellers are very lucky. http://www.s-r-s.org.uk/bookpryer.php

[bike2steam]

Ah, good info Paul, so I can get a replacement copy of volume 2 as it's so well used, it's falling apart. George was a regular in my old shop (as well as Swanage), and kept it well stocked of his volumes, one of the things I miss, and as you probably know, he could talk for ages on his favourite subject.

[bike2steam]

Give a track layout to three signal engineers and you would probably come up with ten different options 

Yep, hence my post number 32, and I'm no, or claim to be a 'signal engineer'.

[Talltim]

And then you get to US signalling...

Edited August 31, 2017 by Talltim

[PaulRhB]

Ah, good info Paul, so I can get a replacement copy of volume 2 as it's so well used, it's falling apart. George was a regular in my old shop (as well as Swanage), and kept it well stocked of his volumes, one of the things I miss, and as you probably know, he could talk for ages on his favourite subject.

Much missed and the box has a number of his books in our little library. They used George's drawings blown up on the wall at a retirement do and George asked if he got royalties, so I gave him some cake

[meil]

Just a couple of questions concerning the diagram in post 34.

 

The implication is that the UP platform is "in section" and not within station limits. Does that mean that any train stopping would have to be belled as "requiring to stop in section"?

 

What in the relevance of the "Train Length" between points 9 and the UP Section signal? I fail to see what relevance points in a siding has to do with the Section signal.