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Class 205 2-H Thumper in the 1970's ?


swiftbeam
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Hi,

 

In the very late 70's, I used to train spot Class 205 2-H Thumper's in Portsmouth from our local bridge in Copnor. We called the bridge 'The Stone Bridge' because it was made of stone !

 

I always remember the yellow fronts and black triangle on the front (maybe rear as well?) I always thought they were electric as a kid because we were warned of the third rail and how dangerous it was ! I really don't know if these units were diesel or third rail electric?? I seem to remember sparks from the rail ??

 

I'd love a model of a set, all these years later. Bachmann do a range of Thumpers but I really can't find out what colours I'd have spotted in those days!

 

Can anybody help me? 

 

Thanks,

Rob.

Edited by swiftbeam
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Hi,

 

In the very late 70's, I used to train spot Class 205 2-H Thumper's in Portsmouth from our local bridge in Copnor. We called the bridge 'The Stone Bridge' because it was made of stone !

 

I always remember the yellow fronts and black triangle on the front (maybe rear as well?) I always thought they were electric as a kid because we were warned of the third rail and how dangerous it was ! I really don't know if these units were diesel or third rail electric?? I seem to remember sparks from the rail ??

 

I'd love a model of a set, all these years later. Bachmann do a range of Thumpers but I really can't find out what colours I'd have spotted in those days!

 

Can anybody help me? 

 

Thanks,

Rob.

My grandparents lived in Cosham and I remember them being all over blue at that time. Definitely diesel powered as the Pompey - Southampton line wasn't electrified back then, and you could here the 'thump' as they passed their flat. Also totally irrelevant, but I remember that Cosham High Street level crossing gates were manually closed by a big wheel in the signal box.

 

Dave

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I definitely remember a third rail, what was that if not for electric?

 

Are you thinking overhead electrification? Defo didn't have that :-)

 

Just because the line was electrified it doesn't follow that all services were therefore electric.  Portsmouth to London was electrified in the 1930s whereas Portsmouth to Southampton didn't happen till the 1980s. Even today direct services from Portsmouth to Salisbury are still operated by DMUs. 

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A 1981 shot at Coham here - https://flic.kr/p/9jYmyu

 

Looks like you need an all-over blue one.

 

Cosham wasn't electrified at this time, perhaps the centre rail is what you remember?

 

34699844486_688e125f39_b.jpg205 033 at Cosham, Sunday 19th March 1989 by 81,CIG-BIG-CIG, on Flickr

 

And here's a 1979 view of a Thumper at Portcreek Jct, showing the electrified Havant line going off right, and the Cosham line to the left.

https://flic.kr/p/fahfrk

Edited by stovepipe
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The units were diesel engined, with an electric transmission. Diesel, in short.

 

The big triangle was on the guards van end cab only, as a way of giving staff at stations as long a warning as possible of which end of the train the van was at, which was important in days when vast numbers of mail bags had to be loaded or unloaded quickly. All BR(S) units with a van at one end only had a triangle, so 2-HAP electric units, for instance.

 

In the late 70s, they were all over blue, which was the livery for non-corridor stock at the time.

 

Kevin

Edited by Nearholmer
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I was only 10 or so at the time, but I'm totally convinced there was a third rail under the bridge that was running about 10" parallel to one rail. I don't remember it being rusty, and we all told as kids it would kill you instantly if touched. So we were all scared stiff of getting close to the rails !!

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Somehow, everyone seems to think you're talking about Cosham, which wasn't electrified then.

 

Am I right in thinking that you are talking about Copnor Road in Portsmouth, near Fratton?

 

Because if you are, your bridge was probably over the section of line that was electrified in the early 1930s.

 

Kevin

Edited by Nearholmer
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Yes, Portsmouth.

 

We used to call the bridge 'The Stone Bridge', it was between Money field Ave and Kendal Ave. It was closed in the early 80's and a steel bridge was built behind it on the Copnor road bridge side. 'The Stone Bridge was demolished later on. We called the new bridge "The Iron Bridge' !! I used to cross The Stone Bridge every day on my way to my School, Copnor Junior.

 

There was defo a third rail under that bridge, I saw it every day for years on end :-)

Edited by swiftbeam
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Yep, electrified in the 1930s. First day of full electric service to London, 4 July 1937.

 

If anyone is really interested, which is unlikely, I've got a copy of the 'Railway Gazette' special edition issued for the opening, chock-full of descriptive detail, which was given to me by my one time chief, who had worked on the scheme as a young engineer.

 

You did not dream the third rail!

 

K

Edited by Nearholmer
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I remember seeing them at Salisbury in the late 1970s and early 1980s.

Before the Portsmouth Harbour - Bristol/Cardiff service became an hourly service worked by class 33s there was only a 2 hourly Portsmouth - Bristol service

worked by Bath Road class 31s, and the DEMUs worked a Portsmouth Harbour to Salisbury service in between them.

Some of the DEMUs were still blue into the 1980s.

post-7081-0-33142300-1504861513_thumb.jpg

Set 1101 at Salisbury waits to work back to Portsmouth Harbour, 23/4/80

 

cheers

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Yep, electrified in the 1930s. First day of full electric service to London, 4 July 1937.

 

If anyone is really interested, which is unlikely, I've got a copy of the 'Railway Gazette' special edition issued for the opening, chock-full of descriptive detail, which was given to me by my one time chief, who had worked on the scheme as a young engineer.

 

You did not dream the third rail!

 

K

Railway Magazine article at the time, courtesy of SEMG:

 

http://www.semgonline.com/RlyMag/ElectrificationPortsmouth&Alton.pdf

Edited by keefer
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You refer to 2H thumpers at Copnor, the units working out of Portsmouth at the time (from memory 1101-1112, 1123-1133) were 3-car units (3H). The first tranche (1101-1122) were originally 2 cars but were augmented in the late 1950s to 3 cars due to the surge of traffic from the much-improved service and subsequent builds were 3 cars from the outset. The extra car did no favours to performance however!

3-car units 1113-1118 were (I believe) on the Central section at the time.

Units 1119-1122 were not made up to 3 cars. 1119-1120 were used on Ashford-Hastings services and 1121-1122 worked the Southampton-Alton line, where the steep gradients east of Winchester could cause a 3-car unit to slip to a standstill.

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You refer to 2H thumpers at Copnor, the units working out of Portsmouth at the time (from memory 1101-1112, 1123-1133) were 3-car units (3H). The first tranche (1101-1122) were originally 2 cars but were augmented in the late 1950s to 3 cars due to the surge of traffic from the much-improved service and subsequent builds were 3 cars from the outset. The extra car did no favours to performance however!

3-car units 1113-1118 were (I believe) on the Central section at the time.

Units 1119-1122 were not made up to 3 cars. 1119-1120 were used on Ashford-Hastings services and 1121-1122 worked the Southampton-Alton line, where the steep gradients east of Winchester could cause a 3-car unit to slip to a standstill.

 

The original 2H units had 500hp engines, but when they were converted to 3H the engines were replaced by 600hp ones, with the original 500hp ones going to new Hastings DEMUs. However 600hp is not a lot for a 3-car unit....

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You refer to 2H thumpers at Copnor, the units working out of Portsmouth at the time (from memory 1101-1112, 1123-1133) were 3-car units (3H). The first tranche (1101-1122) were originally 2 cars but were augmented in the late 1950s to 3 cars due to the surge of traffic from the much-improved service and subsequent builds were 3 cars from the outset. The extra car did no favours to performance however!

3-car units 1113-1118 were (I believe) on the Central section at the time.

Units 1119-1122 were not made up to 3 cars. 1119-1120 were used on Ashford-Hastings services and 1121-1122 worked the Southampton-Alton line, where the steep gradients east of Winchester could cause a 3-car unit to slip to a standstill.

 

Hi,

 

The Alton to Southampton line closed in Feb 1973 - so two of the 2-Hs would have been available for redeployment?.

 

PS just found a photo of 1121 at Fareham on E-bay: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Colour-Photo-of-BR-Class-204-2H-DEMU-1121-at-Fareham-1974-/322213812171

 

 

Regards

 

Nick

Edited by NIK
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" However 600hp is not a lot for a 3-car unit...."

 

It's pretty much exactly what nearly every traction unit was provided with in the 1950s: 200-250hp/car.

 

That range of power was the result of two things: it was enough to maintain steam-age timings, and, for the bigger, mainline, diesels was what you got if you put the biggest viable engine in, and divided by 12 cars, the typical express train load.

 

The Class 40 were never really very popular because they were a bit underpowered for a 12 car train, at 2000hp, and hence slow, while the Deltics were dead sexy, because at 3300hp they could beat steam timings, and with a ten car train beat them handsomely.

 

It wasn't really until 25kV electrics got into their stride in the early 1960s that high powers, and hence high speeds, became routine ........ and the glorious 4-REP of course, which didn't look as powerful as a Deltic, but actually was (3200hp, and fewer auxiliary losses).

 

The SR ones that always seem underpowered in retrospect are the Hastings units: 1000hp or 167hp/car, for use on what is a very steep and twisty route. The buffet cars were nice, though!

 

It's easy to forget how much slower rail travel was fifty, even forty, years ago than it is now ........ except, unfortunately, on much of the former SR, where it's stayed the same, or got even slower!

 

Kevin

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I was only 10 or so at the time, but I'm totally convinced there was a third rail under the bridge that was running about 10" parallel to one rail. I don't remember it being rusty, and we all told as kids it would kill you instantly if touched. So we were all scared stiff of getting close to the rails !!

Copnor was electrified as it is south of the Farlington triangle, which was only electrified on its SE face at that time. The SW and Northern faces were not electrifed, so all coastal and Pompey to Fareham traffic beyond the Farlington triangle was diesel powered, hence the Thumpers. Almost everything else was electric, (BR 31s, 33s and the odd 47 excepted).

 

Dave

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To confirm a number of points here:

1.  Copnor Bridge (the "stone bridge") is in Fratton and therefore sits over the electrified line between Portsmouth and Havant.  However not all trains were electric as the alternate route at Portcreek Junction towards Cosham was not electrified in the 1970s.

 

2.  The memory of seeing a third rail would refer to the live conductor rail used to power electric trains towards Havant, Waterloo and Brighton.

 

3.  "Thumper" units were diesel-powered and in the 1970s worked almost all trains bound for Cosham, Fareham and beyond.  The timetable normally provided for three per hour each way (to and from Eastleigh, Southampton and Salisbury of which the latter was a semi-fast).  The nickname thumper was not in general use then.  It arose later among enthusiasts and railwaymen.  In the 1970s these units were generally referred to as "Hampshires" from the region they were introduced to serve and their SR classification of 3H (3-car Hampshire unit).

 

4.  The Hampshires were all-blue for most of the 1970s with the black inverted triangle painted on the driving motor coach end; its meaning was "there is a van at this end but not at the other end" and was to assist station staff with positioning mail, freight, cycles and prams for speedier loading.

 

4.  Hampshire services were normally 3-car at all times.  There were a few exceptions as 6-car trains were booked a few times a day either because peak-time loading required it or for stock balancing purposes.  The 2-car units as sold by Bachmann were at first used on the Southampton - Alton route but after that closed they could be found on occasions forming Portsmouth trains.  They were used in pairs or coupled with a 3H when possible.  Soon after they gained a third coach and became almost indistinguishable from the standard 3H.  These "new" coaches were from redundant electric units and had their former driving cabs locked out of use.  The former 2H units 1119-1122 were renumbered 1401-1404 and classified 3T as they were technically slightly different to the standard units.

 

5.  Cosham railway gates were a well known local landmark and the signalman in the box did indeed operate them with a large wheel.  Many a child has spent hours watching this happen; with at least six trains an hour one seldom had long to wait.  Many an adult has cursed at the same when "trapped" by the gates for some minutes.

 

Now for an additional memory of Cosham.  The bus turning area beside the station used to be the trolleybus turning circle.  Trolleys never crossed the railway; only diesel buses ventured farther.  "Cosham Railway Gates" was the time point printed in the City of Portsmouth Passenger Transport Department timetables.  Another quirk was that "Pompey" buses used route numbers in one direction only as some routes were lengthy circulars.  Thus the Paulsgrove - Cosham - Portsmouth - Southsea - Cosham route was the 1 but the 2 on its way back.  The 3 and 4 served a similar route but via Copnor Bridge.  Trolleybuses mostly used letters instead of numbers such as the O and P hough there were exceptions.  And back in those days the 3H units were green.

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To confirm a number of points here:

 

1.  Copnor Bridge (the "stone bridge") is in Fratton and therefore sits over the electrified line between Portsmouth and Havant.  However not all trains were electric as the alternate route at Portcreek Junction towards Cosham was not electrified in the 1970s.

The only point I would disagree with is that Copnor bridge is not in Fratton. It crosses the line next to Kingston Cemetery, Copnor being to the north of it and Kingston to the south west of it. I only know because I was born under a mile from it!

 

Just to illustrate some of the other diesels that passed by, (apologies for the image quality, 110 or possibly a Zenit)

 

post-29514-0-21723600-1504989290_thumb.jpg

 

31418 on the fuel point at Fratton

 

post-29514-0-00210600-1504989305_thumb.jpg

 

33112 and 4TC - possibly a Salisbury or Bristol

 

post-29514-0-03286800-1504989275_thumb.jpg

 

4TC 433 and 33 heading into Cosham, bus turnaround just visible on the right.

 

Dave

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33112 and 4TC - possibly a Salisbury or Bristol

Depending upon the date that might be either the 11.20 (Sundays only) Portsmouth Harbour - Cardiff General (now Central) or, if later in the 1970s or early 1980s it may be a Portsmouth Harbour - Reading duty upon which these units appeared as part of some complex diagrams which also involved Reading - Salisbury and Salisbury - Waterloo turns.

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"Copnor Bridge (the "stone bridge") is in Fratton"

 

:-0

 

I beg to differ! 'The Stone Bridge' was call that by the locals, us. I was bourn and raised in Copnor, Attending Westover, Copnor and Great Salterns schools during the 70's and 80's. I can ABSOLUTELY assure you, Copnor bridge, any of them are NOT in Fratton, Fratton is a totally different area of Portsmouth.

 

My address was 

 

XX Seaton Ave,

Copnor 

Portsmouth,

Hants.

 

And the Stone Bridge (I crossed over every day for years) led me to Copnor School in Copnor road. I in no way went via Fratton!

Edited by swiftbeam
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Looking at your route from Seaton Avenue to Copnor Road on Google Earth, you will have crossed the railway line between the stations of Fratton to the South (leading to Portsmouth), and Hilsea to the north. This line was electrified as part of the Portsmouth Direct route in 1938. The line divides just after Hilsea station: Portsmouth-London electric services turned east at this junction, whereas the line to the west led to Southampton which was not electrified until the 1980s. 

 

Your bridge was not in Fratton but it was the electrified railway to Fratton and Portsmouth that it crossed. 

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