The Pre-Grouping Pedants Weekly

[BG John]

My latest thoughts on this thread are that

maybe it's time to re-name it.

It seems that as there are normally new

posts almost every few hours, it is now

time to change the 'weekly' to 'daily'!

Or something more futuristic like "Pre-Grouping Pedants 24"

 

https://www.sadtrombone.com/

Those of a sensitive nature, who prefer their piano legs to be covered, should not scroll down to the part of the page with a blue background, and click on the left hand link, as it may cause palpitations.

[Regularity]

Those of a sensitive nature, who prefer their piano legs to be covered, should not scroll down to the part of the page with a blue background, and click on the left hand link, as it may cause palpitations.

Many years back I was working for a small software company, and rather than saying "original equipment manufacturers" they kept saying "OEM". Neither meant anything to me at that point, but I did a quick web search on the abbreviation (not being easily pronounced it is not an acronym) and the first hit was "one-eyed monster"... if that doesn't appear on that other link, it should.

[CKPR]

You could do that drinking in Ludlow Brewery which is a topically pre-grouping structure.

 

Which is within walking distance of said antique emporium. Downhill as well.

[Hesperus]

Apparently the small nominally Welsh village where my parents live, bisected by Offa's Dyke and within a Herefordshire postcode, was given a brand new shiny Welsh name, the village signposts updated, and it took a few months before anyone realised the spelling was wrong.

 

The area was served by a pre-grouping railway, to keep things vaguely on otpic.

 

Presteigne? 

 

Which is within walking distance of said antique emporium. Downhill as well.

 

Ludlow isn't a big place, so it's more or less all within walking distance

[corneliuslundie]

I have visited Presteigne (Llanandras, though I have never heard it used except in our Welsh class). In Wales but the car had to cross the river into England to turn round. A nice little town with the Judges' Lodgings, well worth a visit.

Jonathan

[Caley Jim]

In this months edition of Pedants Monthly, we cover several contentious issues.

 

The Chorkle & Slimbucket Railway. A railway ahead of it's time? A timetable, which set its departure & arrival by GMT, it set off one hour early, and arrived 1 hour late, thus ensuring near-perfect punctuality.

 

Plus..

 

Archibald Hughes-Crapper, the inventor of the first electrically operated train toilet. Was it all a flash in the pan?

 

 

Fred the Office Boy.

Does Fred's boss know what his office boy is up to when the boss is out of the office?  He's obviously not giving him enough work to do!

 

Concerned of Biggar

[Oldddudders]

Ludlow isn't a big place, so it's more or less all within walking distance

My recently euthanased horse (she was 36, which is a good age for dobbin) was bred near Ludlow. When she was delivered to us in Kent in 1983, her breeder had first done a morning milk round, then drove her Series 1 landrover and trailer across half of England to us. There was also a German Shepherd pup in the delivery.

[CKPR]

 

 

 

 

Ludlow isn't a big place, so it's more or less all within walking distance

 

You're just being pedantic now...

[Penlan]

 Ludlow isn't a big place, so it's more or less all within walking distance

 

You're just being pedantic now...

If your being pedantic, it either is, or isn't, within walking distance.. .

[johnarcher]

If your being pedantic, it either is, or isn't, within walking distance.. .

That depends how far a pedantic pedestrian is prepared to peregrinate, perhaps.

[MarcD]

Also time dependant. 

 

Marc

[Compound2632]

Also time dependant. 

 

Marc

 

Is Ludlow really that dodgy after dark?

[MarcD]

They do have a castle so there might be a bit of fisticuffs!

 

Marc

[TheQ]

They do have a castle so there might be a bit of fisticuffs!

 

Marc

softies, try chainsaws and spades...http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/crime/woman-left-petrified-as-two-gangs-armed-with-garden-equipment-and-a-chainsaw-clash-in-norfolk-market-town-1-5219520

[Caley Jim]

softies, try chainsaws and spades...http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/crime/woman-left-petrified-as-two-gangs-armed-with-garden-equipment-and-a-chainsaw-clash-in-norfolk-market-town-1-5219520

A bit OT, but we had a talk at Probus this morning on the Jacobite uprisings, to which the speaker had brought some typical weapons used by the Highland clansmen,targ, dirk, basket broadsword, Lochaber axe.  Makes these present day thugs look like softies!!

 

Jim

[t-b-g]

Is "walking distance" set out in any know reference work as a particular standard and if so, what units is it measured in. If not, I would define it as "The distance a grumpy railway modeller aged 65 with dodgy hips can walk in 30 minutes without getting out of breath by rushing".

[Regularity]

If your being pedantic, it either is, or isn't, within walking distance.. .

Being pedantic, it is you’re, not your being a contraction of “you are”’ and not the possessive of “you”.

 

Back in the pre-grouping days, those who were educated beyond primary school (and many with it) knew the difference. I think we should be held to those high standards.

 

It is disappointing that a debate about “walking distance” (surely relates to how much one has imbibed?) has failed to notice this basic error...

[Penlan]

My apologies, but having had an education in rural Scotland, perhaps I wasn't, oh how shall I say......

Begger, cought/court/caught* out grammatically.

* Spelt differently, pronounced the same.

On our Wednesday night lads (all over 70 years of age) get together,

I'm the only one who didn't go to Grammar School, so it seems to show, after all these years.
Ah, you mention imbibing, that's what we do, rather well.  Currently we have Courage Best, Rev James, Dartmoor Gold and the regular Betty Stogs on tap in the Legion, plus this weekend coming, an extra (free) barrel of Guinness for a Party - Somebody's Birthday and an Irish Band, plus some floppy leg dancers..
Oh, it's hard work being retired.

Edited October 3, 2017 by Penlan

[TheQ]

A bit OT, but we had a talk at Probus this morning on the Jacobite uprisings, to which the speaker had brought some typical weapons used by the Highland clansmen,targ, dirk, basket broadsword, Lochaber axe.  Makes these present day thugs look like softies!!

 

Jim

Not much good against muskets and cannons... As usual the French supplied a few troops and weapons, but not enough to make sure there was any chance of victory. Just enough to distract the British Army and Navy from the Channel....

[Edwardian]

A bit OT, but we had a talk at Probus this morning on the Jacobite uprisings, to which the speaker had brought some typical weapons used by the Highland clansmen,targ, dirk, basket broadsword, Lochaber axe.  Makes these present day thugs look like softies!!

 

Jim

 

Not much good against muskets and cannons... As usual the French supplied a few troops and weapons, but not enough to make sure there was any chance of victory. Just enough to distract the British Army and Navy from the Channel....

 

There was something of a difference between '15 and '45.  I believe that muskets were much more common in the ranks of the Jacobite army in '45.  In that regard, the opposing forces were similarly armed, and armed with muskets that were essentially the same as those used at Waterloo.

 

I believe that at Culloden, the Highlanders were still choosing the tactic of firing their muskets once before dropping their firearms and charging.

 

It is easy to be dismissive of this tactic as brave, but quaint, but regular British infantry in the Napoleonic period could break French columns by firing a volley, perhaps 2, and then charging.

 

In order for this to be successful, however, you needed to get it right.  Jacobite volleys were presumably no match for the disciplined and rapid fire that Wellington's infantry subsequently achieved, and, of course, you had to be within effective range.  This gives the attacker a problem in the Napoleonic era, too.  Wellington's infantry was generally on the receiving end, whereas the French attackers had to halt, dress ranks, perhaps, deploy from column to line, and then deliver a volley, all the while receiving British volleys within effective range before having the chance to reply.  Timing, and discipline, was everything; fire too soon and you did not damage the attacker sufficiently, fire too late and they had got off a volley at you.

 

Even so, a Highland charge was not an easy thing to repel. The Government infantry not only needed to keep their nerve, but had to employ a special ‘push your bayonet’ drill to repel the attack (represented below by a 1/72 scale figure).

Edited October 4, 2017 by Edwardian

[Compound2632]

There was something of a difference between '15 and '45.  I believe that muskets were much more common in the ranks of the Jacobite army in '45.  In that regard, the opposing forces were similarly armed, and armed with muskets that were essentially the same as those used at Waterloo.

 

I believe that at Culloden, the Highlanders were still choosing the tactic of firing their muskets once before dropping their firearms and charging.

 

It is easy to be dismissive of this tactic as brave, but quaint, but regular British infantry in the Napoleonic period could break French columns by firing a volley, perhaps 2, and then charging.

 

In order for this to be successful, however, you needed to get it right.  Jacobite volleys were presumably no match for the disciplined and rapid fire that Wellington's infantry subsequently achieved, and, of course, you had to be within effective range.  This gives the attacker a problem in the Napoleonic era, too.  Wellington's infantry was generally on the receiving end, whereas the French attackers had to halt, dress ranks, perhaps, deploy from column to line, and then deliver a volley, all the while receiving British volleys within effective range before having the chance to reply.  Timing, and discipline, was everything; fire too soon and you did not damage the attacker sufficiently, fire too late and they had got off a volley at you.

 

I'm sorry, but as discussed previously, in terms of the development of the British state, the Jacobite rebellions are post-grouping and hence OT. The treatment of the Highland clans after the '45, however, puts the LMS's treatment of the locomotives it inherited from its Scottish constituents in perspective.

 

Going with the OT discussion, were not Highland regiments central to Wellington's army at Waterloo? Though I have heard that battle described as being chiefly fought between Irish and Poles.

[Edwardian]

I'm sorry, but as discussed previously, in terms of the development of the British state, the Jacobite rebellions are post-grouping and hence OT. The treatment of the Highland clans after the '45, however, puts the LMS's treatment of the locomotives it inherited from its Scottish constituents in perspective.

 

Going with the OT discussion, were not Highland regiments central to Wellington's army at Waterloo? Though I have heard that battle described as being chiefly fought between Irish and Poles.

 

Highland regiments have, of course, been some of the best infantry in the British army. 

 

In contrast, what you had in the Jacobite risings was essentially a feudal levy.  Natural warriors, but untrained and, hence, undisciplined as cohesive infantry formations on an open battle field.  It should also be borne in mind that a lot of them had no choice; they followed the clan chief's decision. They, nonetheless, did pretty well up the point they lost. I would suggest that the conventional infantry employed by the Government was not an inherently superior troop-type, it was only where properly trained and seasoned regiments were employed that Government forces gained the advantage.  A recoat and a musket alone does not make an infantryman.      

 

The Highland regiments in Government service were regulars, and trained as such.  They also gained significant combat experience in numerous theatres throughout the Eighteenth and Nineteenth Centuries, so they quickly became veterans. They were bound to have been more effective than the Highlanders in Jacobite service.

 

By the Napoleonic Wars, a period of considerable expansion of the regular army, the Highland regiments sometimes struggled to fill their ranks with Highland Scots, but, I suspect, English county regiments had similar issues.  The shortfall seems invariably to have been made up by Irishmen.  Thus, in addition to the numerous Irish regiments, a large proportion, perhaps 20-30%, of nominally English, Scots or Welsh regiments was probably made up by Irishmen. 

 

As Sean Connery famously says in The Longest Day, "it takes an Irishman to play the pipes"!

 

There was an exhibition at the National Army Museum some years ago called Road to Waterloo.  I recall a chart showing the composition of a Highland Scots regiment.  There were soldiers from all over the British Isles, and a very substantial minority of Irishman.

[Edwardian]

, were not Highland regiments central to Wellington's army at Waterloo? Though I have heard that battle described as being chiefly fought between Irish and Poles.

 

I would say so.  Three kilted Highland Regiments (42nd, 79th, 92nd) were present on the British left, where Picton's Division were attacked by Divisions of D'Erlon's I Corps.  The fate of this attack was sealed by the ultimately self-destructive charge of the Union Brigade, and that of the Household Brigade. Highland infantrymen are said to have grasped the stirrups of the Scots Greys and charged with them.  See Lady Butler!

 

I think, though, the Highlanders were significantly depleted by Waterloo, probably down to 200-300 men per battalion, as they had suffered quite heavily 2 days before at Quatre Bras; some had been caught in the open by lancers whilst in the process of forming a square.  Nasty.

 

The 71st was also present on the British right.  Designated light infantry, they did not wear the kilt, but had a chequered band on their shakos.

Edited October 4, 2017 by Edwardian

[TheQ]

Many highlanders  who took part in the 45 rebellion, within a few years were fighting for the British in America. With the break up of the Clan system, and the lack of work in the areas involved it was a natural thing to do. There were families with men on both sides.

[Caley Jim]

Wellington's famous quote about the Highland regiments, when inspecting the lines before Waterloo, is 'I don't know what they do to the enemy, but they scare the hell out of me'.

 

Jim