The Pre-Grouping Pedants Weekly

[tomparryharry]

To be truly pedantic, surely the only reliable approach is to recreate the original pigment using the period ingredients - this will require a risk assessment and appropriate safety measures - together with base coat (probably red lead), varnish, and frequent polishing with an oily rag/cotton waste. This, together with prolonged exposure to period pollutants, will give you the correct hue. Research is required, therefore, not only into the nature of the paint but the relevant pollutants. A Sheffield-based engine, for example, may be exposed to a different atmosphere to a Liverpool shedded one.

So close! But not right! You must take account in the composition of the oily rag. Is it cotton, jute, or hessian? You can't just expect to chuck a rag on a job like this! Polish off? left handed, or right handed?

 

Jeez, amatuers, all of 'em....

 

Ian.

[Guy Rixon]

So close! But not right! You must take account in the composition of the oily rag. Is it cotton, jute, or hessian? You can't just expect to chuck a rag on a job like this! Polish off? left handed, or right handed?

 

Jeez, amatuers, all of 'em....

 

Ian.

 

 

Need to know the polishing pattern too. Some SECR locos were cleaned with a prescribed pattern of polishing and looked astonishing when the light came from a particular angle.

[Compound2632]

I've seen that photo too, but, like compound, can't think where and I don't have time to hunt for it just now.

 

It's in John Thomas' The Springburn Story. Thomas also mentions the inspiration for the Belgians' interest - some 4-4-0s built by Sharp, Stewart for the Dutch Railways, which were used on the international expresses. The Belgians came to visit McIntosh (Thomas' spelling) with a load of their coal and a request to try it in a Dunalastair. Neilson's built five; the Belgians were ready to order another 40 but there was opposition to £120,000 going out of the country so they were built by Belgian firms, along with a first batch of 812 clones.

 

There's no suggestion of any payment to the Caledonian; McIntosh must have got a fee as consulting engineer and presumably Neilson's made a profit on their five. Would it have been usual to supply the customer with a set of drawings?

 

Evidently intellectual property wasn't so closely guarded in those days.

[tomparryharry]

Next week in the Pedants Weekly, we get an article by our Features Editor, Heckmond Halfdiddle.  Heckmond is well-known for his exhaustive research on the wooden brake blocks on the Maryport & Carlisle railway, and his gritty expose of the cheese sandwich at Swindon Buffet. Heckmond is currently finishing his article on the colour of saddles, as worn by seaside donkeys at Blackpool South. Volume two covers the North side.

 

Our Christmas edition features some music for you! Yes! it's our ever-favourite 78rpm, featuring 'things that might have been'. Here, instead of the Kinks, in Waterloo Sunset, we have 'Bakerloo Sunrise'. For easy listening, we have 'syncopated Sounds', by Flo & the florins, as we go platelaying on the Great Central Railway.

 

 

Fred the office boy.     

[Penlan]

Our Christmas edition features some music for you! Yes! it's our ever-favourite 78rpm, featuring 'things that might have been'. Here, instead of the Kinks, in Waterloo Sunset, we have 'Bakerloo Sunrise'. For easy listening, we have 'syncopated Sounds', by Flo & the florins, as we go platelaying on the Great Central Railway.

Thank you Fred...

But in the pre-grouping era, there were 80 rpm records too, as well as many cylinder records.

I still have a small collection of 80 rpm's - those that have survived being made into flower pots etc.,

Unfortunatly my 1912 HMV record player with a Papermache Horn (overlaid with a Oak veneer) was a part of a settlement which went to the other person, many years ago, although I believe my daughter may well inherit it in due course.

I look forward to the Syncopated music.  Flo and the Florins, I'm sure the Florins should have a capital 'F',

and one hopes they are more than just a two bit accompaniment to Flo.

Presumably 'Florence and the Florins' wouldn't fit on the record label?

Edited September 15, 2017 by Penlan

[tomparryharry]

Thank you Fred...

But in the pre-grouping era, there were 80 rpm records too, as well as many cylinder records.

I still have a small collection of 80 rpm's - those that have survived being made into flower pots etc.,

Unfortunatly my 1912 HMV record player with a Papermache Horn (overlaid with a Oak veneer) was a part of a settlement which went to the other person, many years ago, although I believe my daughter may well inherit it in due course.

I look forward to the Syncopated music.  Flo and the Florins, I'm sure the Florins should have a capital 'F',

and one hopes they are more than just a two bit accompaniment to Flo.

Presumably 'Florence and the Florins' wouldn't fit on the record label?

Aah! Flo & the Florins! I remember them well! Sadly, due to copyright issues, Florence had to leave. The last time I saw her, she was doing a modelling gig for some bloke doing £5 notes. When last he spoke Heckmond Halfdiddle had a contract for sorting out the pebbles on Dungeness beach. I still get a postcard from time to time, here in my padded cell....

 

Fred the Office Boy.

[Poor Old Bruce]

Not Caledonian Blue but, for what it's worth, a friend has told me that he was chatting to the bloke behind the counter at Mason's Paints* (long since gone - Mason's that is, I don't know about the bloke) in Derby and was told that Midland Red, LMS Crimson and BR Maroon all had the same recipe (or as near as with updating of constituents). Any colour difference was due to undercoats and varnish (and weathering of course).

 

* Masons were a long time supplier of paint to the railway.

[Northroader]

Not sure if this is the correct Dunalistair version as built for the the Belgians! Model built by a Sou'West man who quite likes the style of some of the Auld Enemies engines!

Ian.

That model of yours is a real beauty, S7, I'm led to believe? The lining is perfection. Got any more piccies, please?

One other thing about the M'Intosh/ Belgian story I find interesting is that the 4-4-2T they had must have been designed in Scotland, but he Caley didn't use them?

[Penlan]

Aah! Flo & the Florins! I remember them well! Sadly, due to copyright issues, Florence had to leave. The last time I saw her, she was doing a modelling gig for some bloke doing £5 notes. 

Oh, so it's not the Florence who marketed the ZBedie,

often mis-quoted as "Florence, it's time for Bed said Zbedie" 

[Compound2632]

Volume two covers the North side.

 

We expect publication in 2027.

[tomparryharry]

We expect publication in 2027.

Heckmond is currently compiling his notes at the moment. Also in preparation, is his latest authorative tome:- "Pedants Progress: My travels with an Oxo Cube & Thermos flask in Skegness".  

 

Get yours today!

[ian@stenochs]

Not Caledonian Blue but, for what it's worth, a friend has told me that he was chatting to the bloke behind the counter at Mason's Paints* (long since gone - Mason's that is, I don't know about the bloke) in Derby and was told that Midland Red, LMS Crimson and BR Maroon all had the same recipe (or as near as with updating of constituents). Any colour difference was due to undercoats and varnish (and weathering of course).

 

* Masons were a long time supplier of paint to the railway.

I have in my possession three differently labelled tins of paint from a well known model paint manufacturer. The paint contained in each is to my eyes identical in shade! Coincidence or what?

 

Ian.

[Northroader]

Should have gone to Specsavers.

[EddieB]

Regime Mac Intosh. 1898-1908."L'augmentation incessant du tonnage des trains de voyageurs et de marchandises, les vitesses de plus en plus elevees exigees des trains express et l'introduction des voitures lourdes a bogies amenerant l'-administration des chemins de fer de l'Etat a envisager la creation de types de locomotives entirement nouveau.

Le besoin de locomotive d'express se faisant cruellement sentir, il fut decide d'adopter un locomotive classified purement anglais, le type "Dunalastair III" a foyer profound, Cree par l'ingenieur Mac Intosh, "Locomotive Super intendant" du Caledonian Railway en Ecosse. Cinq machines de ce type des 4-4-0 "American" a roues de 1.98m. furent commandes de Neilson, Reid and Co a Glasgow et mises en service a la fin de 1898".

Quote from "Nos inoubliables Vapeur" Phil Dambly. It would seem the Railway just went to the manufacturer and said build us some of them. After trials, Belgian industry built 40 copies in 1899, type 17, and 50 more in 1901. It was found that more power was needed for the heaviest trains, also problems with burning Belgian coal briquettes, so type 18 was built, with larger firebox, 140 in 1902-5. Six had superheat , type 18s, and in 1908 a further enlarged type 18bis, appeared with fifteen examples.

Next an engine which the Caley didn't have, a 4-4-2T, but a dead ringer of Mac Intosh practice, type15. Large numbers of these were built for local services. These were followed by type 30 0-6-0 goods engines, followed by type 32, all very Scottish appearance, and 809 were built up to 1914. A copy of the "Oban bogie" 4-6-0, type 35 was also built from 1903. You'll appreciate the Belgian State Railway had a very Scottish appearance pre ww1.

I hope you didn't type out that quotation in full: http://rixke.tassignon.be/spip.php?article707&lang=fr !

 

I'm sure these locomotives (and preserved examples) have been discussed previously, over in the Continental/Overseas section. Unfortunately it hardly matters what shade the preserved class 18 is painted - such is the gloom of TrainWorld where it is now housed.

[Compound2632]

I'm sure these locomotives (and preserved examples) have been discussed previously, over in the Continental/Overseas section.

 

They were introduced here to demonstrate that we aren't interpreting "pre-grouping" in too insular a manner. We've touched on French, Belgian, Dutch and Scottish locomotives - India next?

[Caley Jim]

Not sure if this is the correct Dunalistair version as built for the the Belgians! Model built by a Sou'West man who quite likes the style of some of the Auld Enemies engines!

Ian.

Couldn't make up my mind whether to click on the 'like' or the 'friendly/supportive' button there, Ian!

 

Jim

[Caley Jim]

It's in John Thomas' The Springburn Story. .....

That's why I couldn't find it! A friend has my copy of that book at the moment.

 

One other thing about the M'Intosh/ Belgian story I find interesting is that the 4-4-2T they had must have been designed in Scotland, but he Caley didn't use them?

There were drawings for both 4-4-2's and 4-6-0's produced but neither came to anything.

 

........ We've touched on French, Belgian, Dutch and Scottish locomotives - India next?

Many Indian locomotives were built in Glasgow!

 

Jim

[Compound2632]

Many Indian locomotives were built in Glasgow!

 

It was leafing through The Springburn Story that brought India to mind!

[Penlan]

I have in my possession three differently labelled tins of paint from a well known model paint manufacturer. The paint contained in each is to my eyes identical in shade! Coincidence or what?

Conversly - as befits Pedantry - I have at least 4 tins of paint from, I assume, the same paint supplier, all labelled the same and all slightly different in colour, these being representations of 'LNWR Coach White'.

[Poor Old Bruce]

I have in my possession three differently labelled tins of paint from a well known model paint manufacturer. The paint contained in each is to my eyes identical in shade! Coincidence or what?

 

So when one expires you can use the others and no-one will notice.

[tomparryharry]

That's why I couldn't find it! A friend has my copy of that book at the moment.

 

 

There were drawings for both 4-4-2's and 4-6-0's produced but neither came to anything.

 

Many Indian locomotives were built in Glasgow!

 

Jim

 

Somewhat amazing, but I've got a works drawing for a Scottish 4-4-2 tank over here....

 

Ian.

[CKPR]

 "...wooden brake blocks on the Maryport & Carlisle railway." At last, now this thread is starting to get interesting !

[Compound2632]

 "...wooden brake blocks on the Maryport & Carlisle railway." At last, now this thread is starting to get interesting !

 

The true home of the wooden brake block was the LNWR.

[MarcD]

I thought a wooden brake block was a stick?

 

Marc

[F-UnitMad]

Wooden brake blocks...??!! How 19th Century!!

 

Oh, hang on....