Valuing vintage Hornby

[Northmoor]

Given the numbers of traders making a living, the secondhand market is alive and kicking. True most magazines and books have little value. But a friend who is disposeing another friends collection had been pleasantly been surprised at the amount made

 

Certainly kits and kit built items when well presented fetch good and high prices, similarly poorly described items can go for a song

One way to assist those disposing of a valuable item is to leave a full description

 

I must be going to the wrong swapmeets and shows - the traders I overhear always seem to be moaning about the lack of trade!  Mind you, when I used to do the odd autojumble I found the traders the same and it's no different at car boot sales.  Probably not a coincidence that the prices being asked by these traders for very common items are at the top end of a range.  More people would attend swapmeets and take the business back from "the internet" that most of the traders also seem to be moaning about, if they were known to be the place to get bargains.  Nowadays I find show traders are good only for obscure secondhand bits, spares and detailing parts.  New and common items are better sought elsewhere.

 

Actually I think very few "traders" make a living from it, the regulars at model railway shows are the exception (and even some of those are not full-time businesses).  I suspect that most eBay sellers with 10s-100s of lots are not really "just clearing out the loft" at all, their feedback scores in the hundreds or thousands indicate that they do far too much to be just a lapsed hobbyist.  Usually their lot descriptions indicate their lack of subject knowledge and are probably almost as blank as their tax return....

 

FWIW I have specifically "bought to sell" on eBay, buying job lots where I want to keep a minimum of 25% of the whole lot, knowing that selling the remainder, often bundled with bits of other lots and with a detailed description, will cover the cost of the 25% I wanted.  I have also bought some collections privately from work colleagues in the past and disposed of the unwanted items on a similar basis, but I never have and never would "cherry pick" a collection.  It is discourteous to do only half the job for them and I have always given them a fair price (about 75% of re-sale value), occasionally giving a little bit more than they asked, when there's a gem in amongst the tat.  Does this make me a business?  I don't know, but most businesses probably sell more than two or three lots a week and don't stop selling for months at a time!

[The Johnster]

We are heading towards products that are replaceable when worn out, not repairable, and it is only a matter of time before we see a loco with 'no user serviceable parts inside.  This is fine so long as it does not extend to bodies being permanently fixed to irreplaceable chassis, as the body is where the detailing, repainting, remumbering, and weathering is done.  

 

We have already reached a point where motors are to be replaced when the carbon brushes wear out, because it is cheaper for the manufacturer to provide replacement this way and not much more expensive for the user; the whole motor is now a throwaway unit.  It is not a major step from that to the entire running chassis being a throwaway unit, and if it lasts for a reasonable service life, this is not a problem.  If it doesn't, it is, and if the firm that makes it ceases to exist or will not carry stocks of it beyond a certain time, the loco is effectively worthless and on borrowed time even as a runner.  I have an ancient Airfix large prairie that comes into this category.  It runs perfectly well, but if it were to go down for any reason I would have to source replacement parts to get it running from a secondhand loco which would similarly be on borrowed time.  I have put some work in on this loco over the years, new buffers, pony and radial wheels, cab roof sliding shutter, repaint, renumber, transfers, weathering, which would presumably be effectively lost.  

 

I also have a s/h Hornby 2721, a model they still market as part of a train set.  The downloaded manual states that a replacement motor for this chassis is available quoting number X so and so, but it isn't; Hornby's slimming down exercise earlier this year means that they no longer carry spares, so another loco, again one I've put a bit of work into, is on borrowed time.  Mileage on my small BLT is not great and both these old ladies have probably got a few years in them yet, but they are effectively worthless as secondhand items to anyone who knows that they cannot ultimately be repaired.  

 

This has implications for the secondhand market in future, for locos at least; coaches and wagons will of course be less affected.

[jjb1970]

I think durability is a concern. The days of manufacturers maintaining a supply of spare parts and being able to service items for many years after sale are long gone for most model trains. That wouldn't be such a concern if I had reasonable confidence that the products were durable and would see me right but unfortunately I don't have that confidence.

[brianusa]

When I came to my senses, tossed out all the old trains and concentrated on tinplate, Lionel at first, over here there were old guys with a treasure trove of spare parts servicing electric trains out of cramped shops filled with the stuff of dreams of the era.  They had it all plus a lot of what we would call collectable trains which could be had nowhere else.  They are all gone now but in many cases old tinplate can easily be repaired thanks to the many spares being around.

 

Then I returned to Hornby; not so easy as all was hundreds of miles away but after persevering, I now have a comprehensive collection.  Fortunately, they don't often go wrong but most of the time they can also be fixed with what's available.  This was not easy or even possible in my N, OO or LGB eras which contributed to their demise.

 

Hopefully my current era continues to have better luck.

 

Brian.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...  This is fine so long as it does not extend to bodies being permanently fixed to irreplaceable chassis...

I believe we have already seen a couple of quite recent small OO loco productions with mechanisms effectively glued into the bodies.

 

...   It is not a major step from that to the entire running chassis being a throwaway unit, and if it lasts for a reasonable service life, this is not a problem.  If it doesn't, it is, and if the firm that makes it ceases to exist or will not carry stocks of it beyond a certain time, the loco is effectively worthless and on borrowed time even as a runner...

See 'split chassis construction steam loco mechanisms'. Don't care how good a model it may be, the difficulties in maintenance because many key components are unique to the model and have no commonality with kit builder parts mean that I will not ever buy again.

[locomad]

When I came to my senses, tossed out all the old trains and concentrated on tinplate, Lionel at first, over here there were old guys with a treasure trove of spare parts servicing electric trains out of cramped shops filled with the stuff of dreams of the era.  They had it all plus a lot of what we would call collectable trains which could be had nowhere else.  They are all gone now but in many cases old tinplate can easily be repaired thanks to the many spares being around.

 

Then I returned to Hornby; not so easy as all was hundreds of miles away but after persevering, I now have a comprehensive collection.  Fortunately, they don't often go wrong but most of the time they can also be fixed with what's available.  This was not easy or even possible in my N, OO or LGB eras which contributed to their demise.

 

Hopefully my current era continues to have better luck.

 

Brian.

That's because there RAM-D products which stands for Reliable, Accessible, Maintainable, & Durable. ( Assessible meaning it's easy to get at)

 

I picked up the acronym for some American quality course in the 1980's, it was with MacDonald Douglas the plane maker, everything had to be RAM-D in construction of there products, I think they got it from the American military, something about keeping B52's airworthy

 

Over the years realised it applies to just about everything we buy, the stuff which have lasted have been RAM-D products, Lionel and Hornby are prefect examples of RAM-D products hence why they have survived and because of that kept there value.

 

Most modern products and that includes modern model railway products are just not RAM-D, ie poor design, poor quality, differcult maintenance and lack of after care service.

 

Somehow I think that in 20 years time the stuff like Lionel, Hornby and a few other models built from before 80's will still be going strong while today's stuff will be found in the scrap bins or just thrown away, I just don't see them lasting

[Dunsignalling]

Somehow I think that in 20 years time the stuff like Lionel, Hornby and a few other models built from before 80's will still be going strong while today's stuff will be found in the scrap bins or just thrown away, I just don't see them lasting

I agree the old products are more likely to still be working by then, if you can still get brushes for the motors, but nearly all the people who collected them will be pushing up daisies and the market will be awash with unwanted stuff that desperate executors are trying to shift. It will need to be totally perfect, vanishingly rare or both to retain any real value

 

That said, I've got Bachmann diesels from the first tranche with centre-can motors that are still getting better having covered two or three hundred real miles.

 

John

Edited September 18, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[locomad]

I agree the old products are more likely to still be working, if you can still get brushes for the motors, but nearly all the people who collected them will be pushing up daisies and the market will be awash with unwanted stuff that desperate executors are trying to shift. It will need to be totally perfect, vanishingly rare or both to retain any real value

 

That said, I've got Bachmann diesels from the first tranche with centre-can motors that are still getting better having covered two or three hundred real miles.

 

John

There's a trend in the last couple of years where among younger people say under 40 to discover dad or grandads train set in the attic or left to them, realise that you won't get much money for them and get them working, building a small layout and keep the hobby going.

 

I notice quite a few Facebook groups who literally every day have newcomers enquiring about such finds.

 

I've got grandchildren coming up to the age where when they visit there going to be introduced to Hornby-dublo 3 rail, why because it's durable enough to let them play with it, easy to lay track on carpet, and peco coupling is easy to handle ( info by hand ) than tension lock.

 

Another reason is I'am just not going to be afraid they might break something worth something while modern stuff is just too expensive and not durable enough for young children

 

There's also a nostalgic value, coupled with a small boxed set and a few coaches and wagons don't take that much space up, that why in the past they have ended up in attics, to be used again sometime

[Bernard Lamb]

I think durability is a concern. The days of manufacturers maintaining a supply of spare parts and being able to service items for many years after sale are long gone for most model trains. That wouldn't be such a concern if I had reasonable confidence that the products were durable and would see me right but unfortunately I don't have that confidence.

How long do you expect a mass produced and built down to a price model locomotive to last?

Three years ?

Five years?

In an age where computers are updated every year and a phone is nudging the £1k and is soon out of fashion, we can no longer expect the standard set by Hornby Dublo.

Add £50 to the RRP and it might be possible,but would the market take it?

Probably not going by general comments.

As for spares, well going by the stock turnover that the business model requires, with particular reference to Hornby, then holding virtually any spares is not possible.

Bernard

[Dunsignalling]

If we want umpteen new models of ever more esoteric prototypes, short production runs followed by protracted non-availability will inevitably become the norm.

 

Given that none of the mainstream "manufacturers" actually make very much (if anything) themselves, if any spares are to be made it has to be done by their sub-contractor at the time the loco is produced. Five  years down the line, you've no chance.

 

It's a fact of life that the more you run a loco, the sooner it will wear out but if you are only running them on a BLT, even the cheapies should give at least 20 years service.

 

For those that get run a lot and do wear out, there are usually mechanically sound but cosmetically rough examples to be found that can be broken up for spares.

 

When one of mine dies on me, it gets consigned to the display cabinet until I can source what's needed to fix it or I get round to giving it a new kit-built chassis.  

 

Sort of a personal Barry.

 

John

Edited September 18, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[locomad]

How long do you expect a mass produced and built down to a price model locomotive to last?Three years ?Five years?In an age where computers are updated every year and a phone is nudging the £1k and is soon out of fashion, we can no longer expect the standard set by Hornby Dublo.Add £50 to the RRP and it might be possible,but would the market take it?Probably not going by general comments.As for spares, well going by the stock turnover that the business model requires, with particular reference to Hornby, then holding virtually any spares is not possible.Bernard

Good question lot depends on how you treat the model, left in glass case, boxed in an attic or trashed around a layout, give it 200 hours of running expect mechanical failure

 

We compare to Hornby Dublo but even theirs models had there problems, 0-6-0 diesel shunter burnt out armature springs to mind, but and it was mentioned in model press at the time, there was spares to fix it and a service department to back it up, failing that even I once rewinded a armature. Not so easy on a small can motor, But on the whole if you left them in attics, glass cases, or used them on a layout, 60 years later they will work

 

However no so the recently purchased modern models, very disappointing I purchase for £200 a loco to find after just a few years a pony truck fell to bits, coupling rods snaped or bent, motors failing, my "Barry" line is full of recently purchased models, a very expensive scrap yard.

 

It's totally put us off buying anything new, it's not just me, my fellow modellers tell me the same stories, still not all is lost, buy a well known magazine for few pounds, get a free display loco, cut the chassis off, slap it on a old HD chassis and you have a pretty good looking streamline duchess that runs well and will last another 50 years

[hayfield]

Good question lot depends on how you treat the model, left in glass case, boxed in an attic or trashed around a layout, give it 200 hours of running expect mechanical failure

We compare to Hornby Dublo but even theirs models had there problems, 0-6-0 diesel shunter burnt out armature springs to mind, but and it was mentioned in model press at the time, there was spares to fix it and a service department to back it up, failing that even I once rewinded a armature. Not so easy on a small can motor, But on the whole if you left them in attics, glass cases, or used them on a layout, 60 years later they will work

However no so the recently purchased modern models, very disappointing I purchase for £200 a loco to find after just a few years a pony truck fell to bits, coupling rods snaped or bent, motors failing, my "Barry" line is full of recently purchased models, a very expensive scrap yard.

It's totally put us off buying anything new, it's not just me, my fellow modellers tell me the same stories, still not all is lost, buy a well known magazine for few pounds, get a free display loco, cut the chassis off, slap it on a old HD chassis and you have a pretty good looking streamline duchess that runs well and will last another 50 years

 

Reply

 

One good reason for making kits. They can be repaired

[Nearholmer]

Or, one good reason for favouring old crocks, and modern locos that are designed like the old crocks.

 

Last year, I brought a c1925 loco back to life by boiling the mechanism in a pot of water. Try doing that with yer fancy modern Bachmann. OK, so it was clockwork, but ......

 

There's even a chap who lives not five miles from me who can provide and fit any size of clockwork spring. His main business is in repairing clocks, but he has made many for rare old model locos. Springs for the more common ones are fairly readily available.

 

And, old electrics can be revived or repaired, too.

[locomad]

Reply

One good reason for making kits. They can be repaired

Very much agree, this is why I've returned to kit bashing, finding old kits and making them, and there is plenty of them.

 

Couple of years ago the model press was going on about death of the kit manufacturer as was the quality and numerous locos available rtr, maybe I'am bucking the trend but in the last few years I've made more then the previous 30.

 

I do like Wills finecast and some I'd always on lookout for decent chassis's to match

[locomad]

Another thought is the HRCA. They run auctions for their members, and they might be able to field a person who is willing to take a look and suggest a value.

Kevin

Not bad idea, I've been to a few of these and quite taken back the prices some stuff fetches, if you have some rare and sort after examples this might the the place to go

[jjb1970]

How long do you expect a mass produced and built down to a price model locomotive to last?

Three years ?

Five years?

In an age where computers are updated every year and a phone is nudging the £1k and is soon out of fashion, we can no longer expect the standard set by Hornby Dublo.

Add £50 to the RRP and it might be possible,but would the market take it?

Probably not going by general comments.

As for spares, well going by the stock turnover that the business model requires, with particular reference to Hornby, then holding virtually any spares is not possible.

Bernard

I think it depends on how you use the model. If you just put it in a display unit then I'd expect the model to last me out and more, however the scourge of Mazak rot means some models don't last even if unused. If a model is used, then unless it is in continuous use I'd expect a good few years. I still have Roco, Fleischmann and Marklin Hamo models I bought in the 80's that still work and which are reasonably user serviceable. I have US outline brass models older than me that still work and which are pretty easy to service and work on provided you are happy to use a set of jewellers screwdrivers despite the reputation of brass models for shuddering to a halt and dying after half a lap of a train set oval.

In terms of spares, I see little reason why with some foresight and smart design that a lot of the consumable parts couldn't be standardised and then spare parts could be provided. I'd go further and say that it is something that has surprised me when looking at some modern RTR models that there seems to be little evidence of designing in ease of production and servicing. In the case of electronic devices I find that in most cases the product is out of date before it dies and unlike a model train an electronic device is more about buying a capability than buying a product. I've got basically no interest in my smartphone or computer, what I'm interested in is the capability they offer. In the case of trains it is very much about the model trains.

[PatB]

I suspect that the durability and serviceability issues being reported in modern r-t-r models are the inevitable result of building what are, effectively, finescale models by mass-production methods and their being sold into and used in an uncontrolled environment. For example, a Guy Williams loco, built as a one-off by a man of great skill, using the best and most appropriate available materials for the job, and run in the museum environment at Pendon with the care and maintenance that entails, will last forever. All the mechanical parts, given the time and skill, can be remanufactured by the user, and spares can still be obtained for its ancient X04.  Take a model of the same prototype, built to a similar standard of detail but using materials which are compatible with mass manufacturing techniques (injection moulded plastics, die-cast mazak, bought-in can motors obtained in a single batch for the specific production run etc.) and sell it to Joe Tenthumbs, who then lets his 5 year-old grandchildren play with it on the carpet, and it won't last anything like as long and will probably end up on Ebay in "good condition" in fairly short order.

 

As alluded to further upthread, the increased level of prototype fidelity also has implications for spares supply. Quite apart from the matter of batch production by subcontractors, it must be remembered that the spares supply provided by Hornby Meccano, Triang et al was, in part, possible because they sacrificed accuracy in the interests of standardisation. When every 0-6-0 you sell is mounted on the same chassis it's much easier to carry a comprehensive stock of bits for your range .

 

So, whilst I can see that there probably are ways of designing in better serviceability, I can also see that it is likely to be more difficult than the current way off doing things. Given that Helbachby seem to currently be able to sell every production batch they make several times over (given the Ebay frenzies one sees when batches sell out), regardless of long term serviceability, I don't really see any motivation for them to do so.

[Dunsignalling]

I suspect that the durability and serviceability issues being reported in modern r-t-r models are the inevitable result of building what are, effectively, finescale models by mass-production methods and their being sold into and used in an uncontrolled environment. For example, a Guy Williams loco, built as a one-off by a man of great skill, using the best and most appropriate available materials for the job, and run in the museum environment at Pendon with the care and maintenance that entails, will last forever. All the mechanical parts, given the time and skill, can be remanufactured by the user, and spares can still be obtained for its ancient X04.  Take a model of the same prototype, built to a similar standard of detail but using materials which are compatible with mass manufacturing techniques (injection moulded plastics, die-cast mazak, bought-in can motors obtained in a single batch for the specific production run etc.) and sell it to Joe Tenthumbs, who then lets his 5 year-old grandchildren play with it on the carpet, and it won't last anything like as long and will probably end up on Ebay in "good condition" in fairly short order.

 

As alluded to further upthread, the increased level of prototype fidelity also has implications for spares supply. Quite apart from the matter of batch production by subcontractors, it must be remembered that the spares supply provided by Hornby Meccano, Triang et al was, in part, possible because they sacrificed accuracy in the interests of standardisation. When every 0-6-0 you sell is mounted on the same chassis it's much easier to carry a comprehensive stock of bits for your range .

 

So, whilst I can see that there probably are ways of designing in better serviceability, I can also see that it is likely to be more difficult than the current way off doing things. Given that Helbachby seem to currently be able to sell every production batch they make several times over (given the Ebay frenzies one sees when batches sell out), regardless of long term serviceability, I don't really see any motivation for them to do so.

Given the time and skill, it should also be possible to extend the working lifespan modern r-t-r locos in a similar way; effectively making ones own spares and using whatever current motor can be made to fit when a new one is needed.

 

Hornby get their models made by up to half-a-dozen different firms in various factories, no doubt using a similarly varied range of equipment. Even if spares are provided at the time of production, being able to obtain any specific item when required, say 20 years later, will be a matter of chance.

 

Keeping such models in regular use over the long term, whilst retaining their original specification, is unlikely to be practical without cannibalising other examples.

 

John

Edited September 22, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[hayfield]

I have a contact in Germany who re-motors modern RTR locos with coreless motors. So where there is a will there is a way

 

A couple of recent threads are about the supply and manufacture of a replacement etched chassis for newly introduced models. This is another way of improving the chassis to complement excellent bodies

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

I suspect that the durability and serviceability issues being reported in modern r-t-r models are the inevitable result of building what are, effectively, finescale models by mass-production methods and their being sold into and used in an uncontrolled environment...

 Exactly so. Small detail parts on body or mechanism; whether the result of kit or scratchbuilding, or provided fitted on a RTR model, have to be treated carefully if there is to be no damage. Likewise the working parts must be maintained with adequate lubrication to prevent wear. I wince fairly frequently at obvious evidence posted online of owners unboxing and reboxing models frequently. This is a recipe for damage all around. Leave the model on the rails, handling only to lubricate - and that very carefully -  and exercise them very regularly to avoid them gumming up, that's the way to minimum damage and longevity in service. (I know this is a counsel of perfection for many, but if this is not possible then be realistic in your expectations...)

 

Spare part supply, buy cheap 'breakers' for any type you have multiples of is my suggestion. There remains a degree of commonality within maker's ranges, which can usefully be exploited; even if the manufacturer seems unaware of it! As an operator above all else I was accustomed to taking the Bachmann split chassis steam models to complete wear out in about six years: once the plating is gone through on tyres, stub axles and block, they are all done. The same running has yet to cause similar failure on the Chinese made steel axled wiper pick up steam models the oldest of which are well past fifteen years old; but I do oil round all the rod joints on a two month schedule as an example of essential routine maintenance, a routine established from the experience of operating various kit built mechanisms.

[DCB]

The best way I know of to value a loco, or anything else within reason, is to check the prices on Ebay, Find a similar item, watch it and see what it sells for, or if a buy it now, if it sells. It will probably take several days to get reliable data.   The other day about 20 Hornby 27XX were advertised on Ebay from 99p plus P+P so about £4.50 to about £30.  Only the 99p one had any bids.

 From trying to value some old O gauge It looks like no one is interested in bottom of the range Hornby 0 gauge at all

The Hornby Dublo value seemed to peak about 20 years ago as did Wrenn which suits me as paying £5 for a chassis or 4 wagons suits my budget. 

Sadly our highly detailed models are generally worth less than a play worn standard version.  I have been putting 2000s Tender drive locos back to standard couplings etc for a friend and hunting in his loft for the boxes  to sell as non standard couplings seem to put people off, again standard pristine boxed is what folk seem to want.  Luckily I don't care about condition so I can still pick up bargains

[Northmoor]

The best way I know of to value a loco, or anything else within reason, is to check the prices on Ebay, Find a similar item, watch it and see what it sells for, or if a buy it now, if it sells. It will probably take several days to get reliable data.   The other day about 20 Hornby 27XX were advertised on Ebay from 99p plus P+P so about £4.50 to about £30.  Only the 99p one had any bids.

 From trying to value some old O gauge It looks like no one is interested in bottom of the range Hornby 0 gauge at all

The Hornby Dublo value seemed to peak about 20 years ago as did Wrenn which suits me as paying £5 for a chassis or 4 wagons suits my budget. 

Sadly our highly detailed models are generally worth less than a play worn standard version.  I have been putting 2000s Tender drive locos back to standard couplings etc for a friend and hunting in his loft for the boxes  to sell as non standard couplings seem to put people off, again standard pristine boxed is what folk seem to want.  Luckily I don't care about condition so I can still pick up bargains

Agree with every word you say.

 

This is exactly how I estimate values of stuff I'm selling (on eBay I also select Sold Items, so you don't even have to wait for the listings to finish).  I look a typical value for the same item in similar condition and deduct about 25% for a starting price.  It gives bidders "somewhere to go" and feel they might get a bargain, so put in a bid.  There is a huge amount of stuff not selling now because starting prices are too high.

[neilkirby]

 On the subject of retiring on the proceeds from selling old models. Back when my uncle had a model shop in the late 70's / early 80's (i was the Saturday boy) a guy came in one particularly busy day carrying a very filthy cardboard box, which it turned out contained an equally filthy, tinplate looking locomotive.  IIRC the guy said it came from his late  grandad's house and he wanted to sell it.  With one eye on the queue of people waiting to be served (we used to get that in those days!) my uncle made him an instant offer of £25, the guy was happy.  then on asking if it was complete, the guy rather honestly said that "he thought that one bit which goes inside was missing, but he thought he knew where it was and could drop it in" my uncle gave him £22.50, with the outstanding £2.50 if he returned with the missing part. Needless to say we never saw him again and the box sat for quite some time out the back. One quiet day my uncle dug it out cleaned it up. On checking a reference book he found it to be very rare live steam (iirc Marklin?), from 1900s, only 3 were know to exist, and his was in better nick than the example in the book! My uncle kept in in a cabinet in his house for years, until with the shop struggling it had to be sold, he got £1000's for it at auction, and it probably would have gone for more if the guy had returned with the missing part, which turned out to be the burner.

Neil

[hayfield]

In many areas if you buy a commodity at the correct price and market it well you normally make a profit. Was the collection built up for profit or pleasure ?

[Torper]

I've got quite a few Hornby Dublo "super detail" coaches and was hopeful that I'd be able to sell them.  Then I found that they're worth peanuts.  Now I used to love these coaches and am still very fond of them.  I think that the tinplate sides and their livery still looks really good.  So I've decided what I'm going to do with them.  They're going to be the first rake of HD tinplate coaches in P4, and I shall take great pleasure in running them on my layout.  Mind you, the bogies are devils to do anything with so I may have to replace them rather than convert them - in the unlikely event of anyone having any experience of converting od HD coaches to P4, please let me know!

 

DT