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Charlie586

Wantage Road 1880 4mm Broad Gauge

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The Rover is really taking shape now. Never mind if you don't find the front splashers. Those wheels deserve to be seen in full anyway :D.

 

Penhros' site just gets better and better. On the page you linked to, the photo of the 'preserved' D2 makes me smile!

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36 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

The Rover is really taking shape now. Never mind if you don't find the front splashers. Those wheels deserve to be seen in full anyway https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/emoticons/default_biggrin.png.

 

Penhros' site just gets better and better. On the page you linked to, the photo of the 'preserved' D2 makes me smile!

Trying to collect current from the wheels with the splashers in place without it shorting will be a challenge, so maybe it should stay lost a bit longer.

I like the D2 photo too, but it needs some chickens wandering around. 

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Bit of work on the carriage this week.

 

First up, I did a bit of research, and discovered, typically, the information I want is probably in a Broad gauge society mag that I don't have. I did find a few articles on building other BG carriages, and there is a diagram in the Russel book, so that has helped.

 

I don't have a photo I can put on here of what it looks like, but here is a similar length one (E6, not the E7 I'm doing) in 7mm scale

http://www.broadgauge.org.uk/_images/modelling/7mm/S080_E6_carriage_body.jpg

 

Anyway, the length difference of the kit (40ft) and underframe (46ft6). I've decided to build the underframe as is (and buy  or acquire a body that fits at some point) and cobble together an underframe for the body I've got.

 

20190620_143824_Richtone(HDR).jpg.be5c08be300682c391947c509130ea2f.jpg

 

Solebar half etch is soldered up to main solebar, but not soldered to base parts yet. You can see the rivet detail and other bits that would need cutting and resoldering,  plus the underframe spacings are for the 7ft rigid bogies (not actual bogies but they provided some radial movement), but I'll be using dean 6'4" bogies. There's some spare etch on the fret that'll I'll use for a solebar, and I'll cobble together rivets and overlay later (maybe 3d printed)

 

20190620_150718_Richtone(HDR).jpg.78f76b96a0973fc6f145768373622960.jpg

 

I found some U channel to try and make the footboards, but it's a bit thick (I remembered after that the person suggesting it is doing 7mm not 4mm). It would also be a pain to saw the length in half to make top and bottom boards, so we'll need to cobble these together as well.

 

Finally got onto the kit

 

20190620_135558_Richtone(HDR).jpg.03e69c9de644b7fa536104a3f9dd9ff5.jpg

 

Tinned the bolections, then cut out and tidied up then...

 

20190623_153641_Richtone(HDR).jpg.e00bc1d1d9b7f77fbe5ad097e99fe111.jpg

 

soldered to the body. One or two have gone on wonky in my haste, but there are spares, I'll file a bit first to see if it improves them, if not I'll unsolder (and probably a few others by accident) then resolder. However, I do struggle to find time to solder, early morning and soldering don't mix, so I'll probably remove from the body from the fret and fold up before next weekend when I'm likely to be able to solder next.

 

I'll try and dig out a ratio underframe kit, although it's too short and narrow, a few together may give a temporary fix. Worth a look.

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Which BGS mag are you after? I have a lot but not the full run.

Duncan

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Are you using the Penrhos Junction site? It’s a very public spirited job at recording the old GWR coaches. It’s slowly building up, four and six wheelers for starts, recently bogie coaches are appearing, and built round the diagram book, so older non diagram stock is missing. However, if broad gauge stock was converted, which a good deal of the later builds were, you should be able to trace a note to that effect, and gain some information.

http://www.penrhos.me.uk/Clerestories.shtml

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41 minutes ago, drduncan said:

Which BGS mag are you after? I have a lot but not the full run.

Duncan

 Broadsheet 61 looks like it may help from the description, 57 may help too. Thanks.

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7 minutes ago, Northroader said:

Are you using the Penrhos Junction site? It’s a very public spirited job at recording the old GWR coaches. It’s slowly building up, four and six wheelers for starts, recently bogie coaches are appearing, and built round the diagram book, so older non diagram stock is missing. However, if broad gauge stock was converted, which a good deal of the later builds were, you should be able to trace a note to that effect, and gain some information.

http://www.penrhos.me.uk/Clerestories.shtml

 

Thanks. Yes, I've spent many hours on the Penrhos site. The E7 diagram on there is after conversion to standard gauge so is only 8' ish wide instead of 10'. It's the solebar and bogie I'm after more info on, in particular was it ever 7ft rigid bogie and if so when did it become 6'4 dean bogie. As I'm doing 1880 (ish) and also the last day of broad gauge I'm hoping I can get it right for at least one of those.

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Not sure if this helps.  I have two diagrams of E7s, both 8ft wide so narrow gauge.  The first is lot 194 and has 7ft bogies with a 30ft 8" wheelbase, the second is for lot 411 and has 6ft 6" Dean Bogies with a 36ft wheelbase.

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Posted (edited)

The E7 were built in 1879, so would have that terribly cumbersome looking arrangement of having the shorter wheelbase with axleguards mounted on the solebars and loads of sideplay. You’re doing a year later, so would they have been changed by then? Coaches like the C4 came out ten years later, with a decent 6’4” bogie suspended  on the outer corners and a longer wheelbase, setting the standard gauge practice. I would fancy Dean wouldn’t be happy with the old arrangement for long, and replace it well before gauge conversion.

From a modelling point of view, you’ll get far better running by anticipating Dean and sticking proper bogies under, sod “getting it right”.

Edit: Then again, second thoughts, you could put all the outside gear on as it originally appeared as  a dummy arrangement, and have bogies with inside frames mounted behind. You’d need big track radius, though.

Edited by Northroader
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41 minutes ago, ChrisN said:

Not sure if this helps.  I have two diagrams of E7s, both 8ft wide so narrow gauge.  The first is lot 194 and has 7ft bogies with a 30ft 8" wheelbase, the second is for lot 411 and has 6ft 6" Dean Bogies with a 36ft wheelbase.

 

Thanks Chris

I had a sheet of paper with the kit which gave some information (numbers, date toilet added, axlebox changed etc) but the bogies are a mystery to me anyway. The date is probably in the broad gauge article I don't have. I suppose of the 4 carriages in the lot, they could have been altered at different times. It's interesting there's a 7ft bogie on a narrow (post 1892) body on one of the diagrams, that would be correct on both occasions I need. 

 

The Alextrack site also has information on Broad gauge carriages (and engines), but doesn't have pictures like Penrhos, but in some cases has more information.

http://www.broadgauge.co.uk/carriages/

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2 minutes ago, Northroader said:

The E7 were built in 1879, so would have that terribly cumbersome looking arrangement of having the shorter wheelbase with axleguards mounted on the solebars and loads of sideplay. You’re doing a year later, so would they have been changed by then? Coaches like the C4 came out ten years later, with a decent 6’4” bogie suspended  on the outer corners and a longer wheelbase, setting the standard gauge practice. I would fancy Dean wouldn’t be happy with the old arrangement for long, and replace it well before gauge conversion.

From a modelling point of view, you’ll get far better running by anticipating Dean and sticking proper bogies under, sod “getting it right”.

 

My last reply crossed with yours. You're right, it couldn't have run particularly well in either real or model form with that arrangement. I'm not planning any curves on the layout, but it would be nice to have the ability to go round one. The underframe kit includes a very complex looking 7ft compensated bogie that's hidden so it's possible with dummy parts to get it running and look nearly right. I've already started cutting some brass to make 6'4" bogie frames just in case.

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I got time to bend and solder the body up. The brass is really thin and half etched so I had a bit of a battle with the curves, but hopefully it won't look too bad when painted. What I did discover is a bargain shop mitre box is roughly broad gauge carriage width which came in handy when soldering.

 

20190628_150912.jpg.74f1bcb77030bd049267d9fe821c8f39.jpg

 

A better photo without the mitre box.

 

20190629_141950.jpg.8a222de6907968485b0a11b9cda15c0f.jpg

 

After the photo was taken, I had another soldering session and put in most of the compartment dividers except one. In between the second from end first class carriage (a ladies first class carriage) and the central luggage doors is a ladys's (or ladies's ) toilet. The photo on penrhos gives a good idea of it in standard gauge times

http://penrhos.me.uk/Clerestories.shtml#E7dwg

However, you'll notice on that pic the (probably frosted ) extra window next to the luggage compartment for the lav and the two small panels that are in different places on the model. The body (despite the fret saying E7) actually appears identical to an E6. I think the kit originally dates to the 80's (victoria models? then IKB and now via broad gauge society) so I'm unsure if the kit is at fault or if the compartments were changed when the carriage was narrowed on gauge conversion (which seems a major rebuild rather than just swapping the under frame). I think I'll never know, can't find anything on internet or broad gauge site, so I'll build as is.

 

20190629_145405.jpg.2a5f07aa9573416b5bcdb8ef3d6e3b08.jpg

 

Parts for the new correct length frame are being put together. Just need to file a tad more off for a better fit then solder. 

 

After re-reading the Norton Fitzwarren accident page

https://spellerweb.net/rhindex/UKRH/GreatWestern/Broadgauge/BristolExeter/Norton.html

I'm pretty certain the reason the carriage there is without running boards is because it is a special rather than a standard express, of which all pictures I've seen had the boards. So I'm going to use the running boards in the kit for the E6/7 with dean 6'4" bogies, and use the kit underframe for an E3 or E10 with 7' non-bogie (just need to buy a body obviously). This gives me a start at two different trains from different periods.

Long term though, with carriage kits going for well over £50 each and loads needed, a cheaper way of obtaining/creating them is required...

 

Lastly, a bit of early morning plasticard fun. 

 

20190630_084408.jpg.f87934891fb6ccc8097b5a674273ab37.jpg

 

Possibly the smallest GWR 3rd. Unfortunately it's standard gauge and a long way from home but I've always fancied having one of these since I saw the picture in the Russell book. I'm still trying to work out how to do the bolections, the strip I've used just looks too thick for them. I might cheat and use thin brass bent into a rectangle.

 

I'll carry on fiddling with carriages until I either get bored of them or get the right wood for the platform.

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I fancy that in the picture of the Norton Fitzwarren accident, both coaches have had their footboards torn off, the second coach doesn’t look in too bad a nick until you see that the nearest end is resting on a standard guage accomodation bogie, and the Broad gauge axleguards are missing, so definitely stick with footboards. Your kit is shaping nicely.

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Thanks. I've just zoomed into the pic and you're right

 

1367799068_Nortoncoaches(2).jpg.8e699137c1aeff325a38b42d79437af7.jpg

 

The foot board bracket/supports are there, but the boards are not. I'll have to fabricate a set.

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Sort of did more to the carriage. I removed the clerestory roof from etch, cleaned the tags off and started to bend to get the right shape. However...

 

20190704_075119_Richtone(HDR).jpg.8fc0d3b66c70b02c583dbb5c4cc68add.jpg

 

The lid don't fit. It's too narrow (or standard if you prefer). Measuring it, I'm sure it's meant for the later, narrow bodied version. I've fired off an email to the BGS in case they've accidentally supplied the wrong bit. If not then I'll have to cobble another roof base together or attempt to add extra bits to the ends (which will be hard to get to look right).

 

I've found an E6/7 being built in 7mm on a dutch site. Thanks to google translate, most of it is understandable, if comical at times (not sure what it means by ashtray though?)

http://www.blokpost-nul.nl/Project_GWR_BG_Coach_Diag 4a_CDJ/Project_GWR_BG_Diag4a_CDJ.htm

 

So I paused work on the carriage and wondered what to do next. I thought about the underframe but discovered the BGS do individual 40ft solebars (although meant for a K1/2, it's the right length for the E7) so thought It'd be best to order one.

 

Then I remembered the 40ft D2 sides I had 3d printed a few years ago

 

20190705_141545_Richtone(HDR).jpg.3dfdd2c0716bbe4b9b82d2a4a26a32f5.jpg

 

I should have soaked them in alcohol then water when I got them as some of the support wax remains, but never did. Since the photo I've soaked them in water a few times and carefully given it a going over with some wet and dry. They're not as sparkly now, but maybe need another go. The BGS do etched ends as well as the solebar so I could effectively have a cheap carriage. Another plan is to lengthen the compartments in CAD and print another to make a 46'6 E2/3 to match the underframe kit I have, especially as that carriage kit isn't available, but the cad file is a bit corrupt. However I found an old back up of it yesterday half finished so should be able to recreate from that. Shapeways has become expensive for printing these, but I'll try sprueing a few together and also try iMaterialise to see if I can get it cheaper.  If it's still no cheaper then I'll have to bite the bullet and stop waiting for the price of the Anycubic Photon to drop. Either way, I'll have at least another clerestory roof to worry about building.

 

I was hoping to get a primer coat done soon on the carriage (and maybe the rover underframe) while the weather is warm, but haven't done the hinges and other bits so will probably just prime the D2 sides to see how they come out.

 

This leaves me with not much carriage wise to do, so the works have gone on their annual holidays and the station and scenery will get some attention next.

 

Lastly a bit more 5am bleary-eyed Culm Valley 3rd coach scratch-building was done.

 

20190705_152458.jpg.f3f278aeb0a64803a83a64ab16d28a89.jpg

 

Not glued up yet, just staged for a photo. Shame I've only got the one size plasticard strip, but it is what it is. I'm going to have to cram some weight in somewhere to stop it kangarooing.

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Interesting week's work.  It is frustrating when things do not fit as they should.  The third is looking very good and has been built a lot quicker than I did my ones.  I usually, apart from lead passengers, put lead under the seats so it is hidden out of the way.

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Charlie,

 

As I’ve got your D2 sides and a set of the BGS ends I’ll try to check them against each other for height if that will be a help.  I got the ends to convert the  Mallard/blacksmith 6w composite to the BG version but the BGS ends and the Mallard coach sides are a mismatch, so the D2 will be the ideal use for them.

 

Have you made a drawing of the Culm Valley 3rd and would you be prepared to share it? 

 

Duncan

 

 

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8 hours ago, ChrisN said:

Interesting week's work.  It is frustrating when things do not fit as they should.  The third is looking very good and has been built a lot quicker than I did my ones.  I usually, apart from lead passengers, put lead under the seats so it is hidden out of the way.

Thanks Chris.

I think the seats are benches,  there weren't compartment partitions as such, which makes it slightly harder, but I think lead figures and lead under the bench is the best way.

 

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8 hours ago, drduncan said:

Charlie,

 

As I’ve got your D2 sides and a set of the BGS ends I’ll try to check them against each other for height if that will be a help.  I got the ends to convert the  Mallard/blacksmith 6w composite to the BG version but the BGS ends and the Mallard coach sides are a mismatch, so the D2 will be the ideal use for them.

 

Have you made a drawing of the Culm Valley 3rd and would you be prepared to share it? 

 

Duncan

 

 

Thanks Duncan.  If you could check them that would be helpful. I think the BGS ends may be based on 7inch eaves which would make them 1mm too small, but I can live with that. I don't think the ends currently available have holes for steps which is another shame.

 

I'm sure I got the diagram of the culm valley ( ex Rhymney ) off the Castle Aching thread, I'll pm it to you tonight . It has different windows to the Russell picture, but there's a good photo that's nearly side on which helped. A very rough drawing is above the D2 sides in picture on yesterday's post. I've got a part finished 3d cad file of it (along with the 8 other part finished cad files I'm working on ), but it should make a good silhouette file especially as there's no tumblehome.

Charlie 

 

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11 hours ago, Charlie586 said:

I've found an E6/7 being built in 7mm on a dutch site. Thanks to google translate, most of it is understandable, if comical at times (not sure what it means by ashtray though?)

 

Hi Charlie, I had a look and I think what Google got wrong is 'aspotten'. Inserting that word into the Reverso Context translator results in: 'axle box'

 

Your workbench seems to be overflowing with interesting coaching stock! My sympathies regarding the unplanned interruptions, they can be annoying - although you seem to take them in your stride.

 

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1 minute ago, Mikkel said:

 

Hi Charlie, I had a look and I think what Google got wrong is 'aspotten'. Inserting that word into the Reverso Context translator results in: 'axle box'

 

Your workbench seems to be overflowing with interesting coaching stock! My sympathies regarding the unplanned interruptions, they can be annoying - although you seem to take them in your stride.

 

Thanks Mikkel 

Axle box makes a lot more sense in the context!

I'm going to need another few baseboards before the coaches are on frames/bogies or else I'll only get a 2 inch run on the current one if it's all placed together.

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Your D2 sides and the BGS ends seem a close match.

F22900EF-E645-410B-AE0C-043AE81DF4F8.jpeg.e99aaea4862ffc7017e581dcd35a210e.jpeg

Duncan

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2 hours ago, drduncan said:

 

Thanks Duncan, that's very useful.

Might need to take the strip off at the very bottom of the side. Just waiting for the BGS to get back to me on the order.

Charlie

 

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Little bit of work this week but only a few pics.

 

I had a bit of soldering time so soldered together the 46' underframe, for which I have no carriage to sit on, but at least that bit is done.

 

20190711_150623_Richtone(HDR).jpg.2b2f5952c82bddf7d89fe52f8592d53a.jpg

 

It shows how difficult it would have been to cut 2 sections out either side of the centre and stick back together to make a 40' one.

 

I also folded up the bogie that comes with the kit (7' variety) but haven't yet soldered

 

20190714_154532_Richtone(HDR).jpg.55a7f35104db0c687c605d022c56eb81.jpg

 

Also shown are the 6'4 bogies i'm scratchbuilding (2 pairs of 2 sides taped together), these like the 7' above will be inside bearing and dummy plates with axleboxes, springs etc. attached to the frame, but won't have elaborate springing. Because of the rigid frame they'll only be about 5mm of lateral movement for both sorts, but as my track is straight, it won't be a problem.

 

Tried cutting some plasticard and even thought of using old piercing saw blades to vary the width on the culm valley 3rd, but nothing actually got stuck down. I need to make a big order for wheels with all these carriages. Also, I've finally found a suitable piece of wood for the platform base and I've started cutting it up.

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Primed the 3d printed D2 sides

 

20190718_144108_Richtone(HDR).jpg.113fa5e539e42a7bd06505028ce11b70.jpg

 

A bit of stepping is visible, though one of the sides is worse than the other. I'll have another go at sanding with wet and dry then re-prime.

 

20190718_150426_Richtone(HDR).jpg.0aea5df264e866a5bae9ab266c2c758d.jpg

 

Opened out holes in the 6'4" bogie sides. Need to make frame spacers for them now, but my caliper's battery has gone flat so put that on hold for a bit.

 

20190719_145721_Richtone(HDR).jpg.dd3d5df0c772a8404f2c4da53bf0e7eb.jpg

 

The platform wood has been sawed but not glued and screwed down yet.

 

20190720_092130.jpg.561f148ebd21269454980aacdb5bf9eb.jpg

 

Soldered the 7' bogie up and put it together. The thin piece of wire that goes through the four holes for the rocking mechanism was a nightmare to get in. I've plonked 4' early broad gauge carriage wheels in for now as I've a surplus of them and no mansell's. I was trying to find some brass nuts and bolts to attach the bogies to the underframe, but couldn't find them. However, I did find the underframe castings which I sort of forgot I'd bought with the kit.

 

20190721_152730.jpg.d4f636770683af4c281a406759b1c1e6.jpg

 

This is where I ran out of time and it's just soldered, so not cleaned or tarted up yet. The castings for the spring hanger are good, however the plate where it attaches to the frame is a bit thick. The spring casting itself is whitemetal so I'll glue/epoxy that on as I don't get on with soldering whitemetal. There's also another piece needed between the hanger and spring, a loop and some type of locking piece that I'll have to fabricate, probably just a small chain link will do. The Norton Fitwarren accident photo previously shown is the best to see what it should look like.

http://www.spellerweb.net/rhindex/UKRH/GreatWestern/Broadgauge/Nortoncoaches.jpg

Have to say I think I prefer the look of the 7' to the Dean 6'4, but I'm a long way off needing to chose one way or another for the next carriage yet. For a start, I need sides for the underframe I've got.

I've ordered a few bits and bobs which should come in the next few days. That's it for now.

 

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