August 1969, SR South-Eastern division. What would I see?

[Del]

I always wanted my 'big' layout to be set in 1986-90-ish, with NSE and Jaffa Cake with blue-and-grey EMUs. But the cost and rarity of RTR models in these liveries has led me to look further back to the blue and green 'crossover' period, and more specifically to August 1969, when I was born.

I know that there are BILs, HALs, VEPs, CEPs and EPBs all available in these liveries, but I don't think I'd have seen too many of these, except EPBs, on the SE Division (if I'd been old enough!).

 

So what was around? Was it mainly HAPs and SUBs?

Locos I guess would have been 24s, 33s and 73s?

And would the Corporate Image have started to take hold, with 'double arrow' station signs and black-on-white nameboards?

 

 

Edited September 11, 2017 by Del

[Steamport Southport]

If you haven't found it already then this is a very useful website, I can browse on there for ages and still find new things.

 

 

http://www.semgonline.com/home.html

 

 

 

 

Jason

[RFS]

The SR's South Eastern division would not have had 4-SUBs or 2-HALs by this time and it never had 2-BILs. In general EPBs were the order of the day for the inner suburban services, HAPs for the semi-fast services and BEP/CEPs for the main services to the coast. Plus there were the Hastings DEMUs plus some 3H units for the non-electrified lines. Some VEPs would have started to make an appearance by then, having first appeared in 1967 for the Bournemouth electrification.

 

My layout covers an era rather than a specific date (approx. 1957-1967) and "Rule 1" broadly applies, with steam-hauled trains with crimson and cream stock alongside a 4TC+33/1 in blue.  

[Oldddudders]

The VEPs didn't arrive in Kent until 1974. And there was a leaflet for customers - "New Trains For Kent". Cool, eh? Except that close scrutiny of the EMU on the cover showed it to be a CIG, which had had a VEP number added! I think the VEPs displaced HAPs, sent elsewhere.

[Nearholmer]

Quite a bit more freight than you might expect, especially in Medway, Medway valley, sheppey, and on the ferry routes.

 

Golden Arrow; The Night Ferry.

 

Nobody mentioned MLVs or TLVs.

 

Lots of newspaper, mail and parcels workings, including TPO workings.

 

3D at Tonbridge; 2H on the Rye line.

 

There's more, but this might give a start.

 

Kevin

Edited September 11, 2017 by Nearholmer

[Southernman46]

Foreign visitors on freight would be Class 25, 37, 45, 47 - Southfleet Coal, MGR's / Cement to Northfleet / Nuclear Sub fuel to/from Chatham, Hither Green Yard on general traffic / fuel. Much of the cross-London freight (the cement / ferry traffic) would tend to use the SR loco's to "foreign" yards - Acton / Brent / Temple Mills ...........................

 

Everything EMU except 4-CEP's was Blue.

 

Sunday Excursion traffic to North Kent resorts would be 33's from the WCML direction and 47's from everywhere else. 4-CIG's from the SW & Central divisions were not unknown and 10-car Class 117's from the GW suburban area.

 

And we had a lot of 08/09 Shunters that were outstabled and would then make the weekend 15mph / 27 mph trip back to Hither Green / Ashford

[Southernman46]

The VEPs didn't arrive in Kent until 1974. And there was a leaflet for customers - "New Trains For Kent". Cool, eh? Except that close scrutiny of the EMU on the cover showed it to be a CIG, which had had a VEP number added! I think the VEPs displaced HAPs, sent elsewhere.

Oooo  - I remember first seeing 7866 in the sidings behind Gillingham Signal box and you could SMELL the new paint from road 20 yards away .......

[Fat Controller]

I've seen a photo of a Class 40 on a troop train at Folkestone Central. Weekends from Easter to September would have seen lots of loco-hauled passenger workings to the various coastal resorts; some would have been 'Mystexs' from places like South Wales, others were charters on behalf of Saga ( a Folkestone company that started by running chartered trains to fill local hotels and B&Bs).

There was a lot of freight. Trains to Dover would convey ferry wagons, and also Carflats and Cartics with export cars. The Kent coalfield sent coking coal north, whilst the cement works around the Medway valley sent block trains as far as Glasgow. Hoo Junction yard dealt with things like wagon-load cement, oil and chemical products, and all manner of other things.

It's rather quieter now..

[Guest]

Worth pointing out that CEP/BEPs could work in multiple with HAPs without restriction. These 'express' units could, and did, also work with EPBs but there had to be a minimum 2:1 ratio of express to suburban stock, presumably because of different gear ratios. 4CEP/2EPB would therefore be a valid combination on your layout if you wanted it.

[Oldddudders]

Worth pointing out that CEP/BEPs could work in multiple with HAPs without restriction. These 'express' units could, and did, also work with EPBs but there had to be a minimum 2:1 ratio of express to suburban stock, presumably because of different gear ratios. 4CEP/2EPB would therefore be a valid combination on your layout if you wanted it.

I think it was "at least 50% mainline stock" in such a combo. So 4-EPB + 4-CEP was ok, but 8-EPB + 4-CEP wasn't.

[TravisM]

10-car Class 117's from the GW suburban area.

 

I think you might find they were 9 car consists.  Three sets of 3 car Class 117 sets.

 

Julian Sprott

[Del]

Thanks for all the info so far, everyone. So my EMU fleet should mainly be EPBs and HAPs, with BEP/CEPs in a supporting role.

 

 

Sunday Excursion traffic to North Kent resorts would be 33's from the WCML direction and 47's from everywhere else. 4-CIG's from the SW & Central divisions were not unknown and 10-car Class 117's from the GW suburban area.

 

And we had a lot of 08/09 Shunters that were outstabled and would then make the weekend 15mph / 27 mph trip back to Hither Green / Ashford

^^^

This is especially handy, seeing as I was born on a Sunday!

[Guest]

I think you might find they were 9 car consists.  Three sets of 3 car Class 117 sets.

 

Julian Sprott

I think you are right. I was remembering an 8 HAP/4 EPB combo that operated a Waterloo-Portsmouth peak service in the 1960s.

[Guest]

I think it was "at least 50% mainline stock" in such a combo. So 4-EPB + 4-CEP was ok, but 8-EPB + 4-CEP wasn't.

I think you are right. I was remembering an 8 HAP/4EPB combo that operated a Waterloo-Portsmouth peak service in the 1960s

[Nearholmer]

Tadpoles and loco hauled trains from Reading, at Tonbridge.

 

And, slightly OT, there were a lot of interesting "industrials" in Kent, too, so if your layout can include the start of a line to a cement works, port etc, you get a bonus. Some were even steam ...... 'fireless' steam. I don't think there was any 'real' steam left by 1969, at least not standard gauge, but I'm open to correction.

[Lyddrail]

Thanks for all the info so far, everyone. So my EMU fleet should mainly be EPBs and HAPs, with BEP/CEPs in a supporting role.

 

^^^

This is especially handy, seeing as I was born on a Sunday!

 

Ceps/Beps were mainline trains to the coast, EPBs were suburban services higher up the county, Haps did a bit of both.

Cheers.

[Nearholmer]

Hmmmm......

 

My recollection is that on the SER 'main', the HAP were used on trains that ran semi-fast to Tonbridge, dividing there, one part going all stations to Ashford, the other going ....... er ....... I give up! I was going to say Maidstone/Strood, but then I recall changing at Paddock Wood for that line.

 

The point I am failing to make being that HAP weren't suburban units (they had first class), but for use on semi-fasts and stoppers "in the country". They had their own niche, rather than "doing a bit of each".

 

And, the more I think about a 2-HAP, the more it seems like something from another age! They looked and felt deeply retro even c1970, when barely ten years old.

 

Kevin

Edited September 11, 2017 by Nearholmer

[Jim]

Hmmmm......

My recollection is that on the SER 'main', the HAP were used on trains that ran semi-fast to Tonbridge, dividing there, one part going all stations to Ashford, the other going ....... er ....... I give up! I was going to say Maidstone/Strood, but then I recall changing at Paddock Wood for that line.

The point I am failing to make being that HAP weren't suburban units (they had first class), but for use on semi-fasts and stoppers "in the country". They had their own niche, rather than "doing a bit of each".

And, the more I think about a 2-HAP, the more it seems like something from another age! They looked and felt deeply retro even c1970, when barely ten years old.

Kevin

HAPs splitting at Swanley..Stn announcement...

"Falkham up the front, Wrotham up the rear"

 

Excellent!

Jim

[Gwiwer]

Suburban trains - almost invariably EPB units in 4, 6, 8 or 10 car formations

Medway towns - Hap and EPB units on trains terminating (mostly at Gillingham) with those to the coast mostly Cep but some Hap. There were EPB workings through to Ramsgate at peak times and Haps coupled to Ceps too. Sheerness branch was always a single Hap except the through London trains which were up to four units.

Main lines through Tonbridge - Cep and Bep units on most trains with EPB workings out to Sevenoaks and occasionally Tonbridge. Hap units on he Medway Valley line from Paddock Wood to Strood. 6L DEMU units on London - Hastings trains with a 6B added on most. Specified trips for the shorter 6S units as they had fewer seats.

Tonbridge - Redhill - Reading mostly 3R "Tadpole" units but some rostered class 33 + 3 mk1 coaches. Tonbridge - Tun. Wells - Eridge always 3D units though 3H units were permitted and sometimes appeared west of Tun. Wells West.

2H units on Ashford - Hastings and the Lydd branch with 3H and 3D not unknown

Boat trains by 1969 usually 12Cep+MLV as the TLVs had gone by 1968.

Golden Arrow and Night Ferry hauled by class 71 locos

Inter-regional holiday trains to Margate and Ramsgate could produce classes 24, 25 or 47.

Freight - plenty of it and worked by classes 33 and 71 though with frequent visits from many other types

Parcels and newspaper trains - again often worked by a 33 though sometimes an MLV or 71

Shunting by class 09 with some 08, 10 and 12 though class 12 (D152xx) may have been extinct by 1969.

Plenty of variety

[Del]

So we're in the South-East London suburbs, that bit where you're never quite sure if it's London or Kent (Erith, Welling, Sidcup, Bexley, that sort of area).

Would any of the DEMUs have made it up that far, maybe on through services to London from their usual stomping grounds, or would they have been kept in their regular neck of the woods?

I'm guessing diesel-operated Hastings services wouldn't be seen that far east?

[SRman]

Class 24 as 'native' diesels would have been extinct by then, but as occasional visitors on cross-London freights, they could still appear. There is one photo in a book i have of a class 27 visitor, but that was an extremely rare occurrence. 31s were more frequent on the cross-London transfer freights, in addition to the 25, 37, 45 and 47 mentioned earlier, plus classes 15 and 16, although they were approaching the ends of their short lives by then.

Add into the mix of EMUs, DEMUs, electric and diesel locomotives the mix of liveries. The SR was very slow to add small yellow panels, so it would be possible to see green diesels and EMUs with no yellow panels in 1967, side by side with green or blue with full yellow ends, and even a few blue units with small yellow panels, as well as the more expected green with small yellow panels. Express EMUs such as the CEPs and BEPs initially went into plain blue (with small or full yellow ends), but within a year or two fresh repaints were in blue and grey.

 

Edited September 12, 2017 by SRman

[Oldddudders]

So we're in the South-East London suburbs, that bit where you're never quite sure if it's London or Kent (Erith, Welling, Sidcup, Bexley, that sort of area).

Would any of the DEMUs have made it up that far, maybe on through services to London from their usual stomping grounds, or would they have been kept in their regular neck of the woods?

I'm guessing diesel-operated Hastings services wouldn't be seen that far east?

That is the former South Eastern Railway suburban network, aka the Dartford group of lines - all lines lead there!

 

EPBs were on every train, although the pair of 4-DD double-deckers was still plying the Bexleyheath Line at this date. The only relief among the EPBs, which didn't travel beyond Gillingham or Maidstone West, were the HAPs, which ran an hourly - or was it half-hourly? - service from Charing Cross via Lewisham and Woolwich Arsenal (the North Kent line) semi-fast all the way to Ramsgate.

 

Sorry, not a DEMU in sight, but plenty of freight services.

Edited September 12, 2017 by Oldddudders

[Nearholmer]

Well ....... the Hastings units were used for off-region excursions, starting from all sorts of places. The Spalding flower festival was always popular, which says a lot about Britain at that time.

 

Also, off region excursions inwards and home. The terrible events of Eltham Well Hall were a bit later, but an example.

Edited September 12, 2017 by Nearholmer

[The Lurker]

Hmmmm......

 

My recollection is that on the SER 'main', the HAP were used on trains that ran semi-fast to Tonbridge, dividing there, one part going all stations to Ashford, the other going ....... er ....... I give up! I was going to say Maidstone/Strood, but then I recall changing at Paddock Wood for that line.

 

 

All stations to Ashford calling at Paddock Wood, Marden, Staplehurst, Headcorn, Pluckley and Ashford. The 5.14pm from Tonbridge IIRC was one of these. That was the train I caught if I had been involved in after school activities such as sports. It was indeed change at Paddock Wood for the Medway Valley line. The only through I can recall from the late 70s was the 8.20 from Paddock Wood to Tonbridge which came off the Medway Vally and across the mainline and into the Up Platform. Or at least it did until Olddudders masterminded the singling of the junction.

[The Lurker]

That is the former South Eastern Railway suburban network, aka the Dartford group of lines - all lines lead there!

 

EPBs were on every train, although the pair of 4-DD double-deckers was still plying the Bexleyheath Line at this date. The only relief among the EPBs, which didn't travel beyond Gillingham or Maidstone West, were the HAPs, which ran an hourly - or was it half-hourly? - service from Charing Cross via Lewisham and Woolwich Arsenal (the North Kent line) semi-fast all the way to Ramsgate.

 

Sorry, not a DEMU in sight, but plenty of freight services.

The nearest you would get regularly would have been the Hastings units flying through Hither Green, although presumably by 1969 slightly more slowly than in previous years, given the 1967 accident