Early class 253 formations

[PoshPaws]

Thanks to an amazing older thread on RailUKforums ( http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=38938 ), I now know that the very first HSTs delivered to the Western Region had this formation:

 

DMB - TF - TF - TRUK - TS - TS - TRSB - TS - DMB

 

This was reformed after a couple of years when it became clear that 2 catering cars was an extravagance. TRUKs that had already been introduced were sent to the Eastern Region for inclusion in the class 254s, and were replaced by an additional TS, giving the following formation:

 

DMB - TF - TF - TRSB - TS - TS - TS - TS - DMB (new build Western Region class 253s from this time were similar, but with a TRUB in the place of the TRSB).

 

The third early change was the introduction of the TGS which replaced the end TS, giving:

 

DMB - TF - TF - TRSB - TS - TS - TS - TGS - DMB

 

Now the questions:

 

1. Does anyone recall whether the TS cars inserted in the sets to replace the TRUK were shuffled around between sets to keep numbering consecutive so, for example, 253001 would have W42003/4/5/6, or whether the new build TS was just swapped in one per set making the above W43003/4/5/91? I know this would have been a big exercise, but BR was rather proud of the HSTs.

 

2. I seem to remember that while there were two catering cars they were both orientated with the seating area toward the centre of the train, then single catering cars were orientated with the seating portion facing second class on a TRSB and first class on a TRUB. Can anyone confirm or correct this?

 

3. I seem to recall that depot allocation stickers were carried on car ends, below the C3 restriction label and the technical details. Again, can anyone either confirm or correct this?

 

4. Does anyone know whether the DMBs were fitted with rooftop smoke deflectors before or after the TGS cars were inserted?

 

I hope these questions are OK, I have actually been asked to model an early HST set, and want to make sure it is as accurate as possible. Also, if anyone knows a good reference book for this, I would love to know.

 

Mike

[keefer]

2) think so - the thing to remember is that TRUB seats were unclassified seats for dining, whereas the TRSB seats were normal second class accommodation. Hence the orientation of single buffet vehicles.

[PoshPaws]

2) think so - the thing to remember is that TRUB seats were unclassified seats for dining, whereas the TRSB seats were normal second class accommodation. Hence the orientation of single buffet vehicles.

That's my understanding too, also that this placed the buffet counter in the most convenient position for second class and avoided extra foot traffic through the restaurant seating. My memory's rather fuzzy though, and I didn't really become interested until about 1980.

[Davexoc]

Thanks to an amazing older thread on RailUKforums ( http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=38938 ), I now know that the very first HSTs delivered to the Western Region had this formation:

 

DMB - TF - TF - TRUK - TS - TS - TRSB - TS - DMB

 

This was reformed after a couple of years when it became clear that 2 catering cars was an extravagance. TRUKs that had already been introduced were sent to the Eastern Region for inclusion in the class 254s, and were replaced by an additional TS, giving the following formation:

 

DMB - TF - TF - TRSB - TS - TS - TS - TS - DMB (new build Western Region class 253s from this time were similar, but with a TRUB in the place of the TRSB).

 

The third early change was the introduction of the TGS which replaced the end TS, giving:

 

DMB - TF - TF - TRSB - TS - TS - TS - TGS - DMB

 

Now the questions:

 

1. Does anyone recall whether the TS cars inserted in the sets to replace the TRUK were shuffled around between sets to keep numbering consecutive so, for example, 253001 would have W42003/4/5/6, or whether the new build TS was just swapped in one per set making the above W43003/4/5/91? I know this would have been a big exercise, but BR was rather proud of the HSTs.

 

2. I seem to remember that while there were two catering cars they were both orientated with the seating area toward the centre of the train, then single catering cars were orientated with the seating portion facing second class on a TRSB and first class on a TRUB. Can anyone confirm or correct this?

 

3. I seem to recall that depot allocation stickers were carried on car ends, below the C3 restriction label and the technical details. Again, can anyone either confirm or correct this?

 

4. Does anyone know whether the DMBs were fitted with rooftop smoke deflectors before or after the TGS cars were inserted?

 

I hope these questions are OK, I have actually been asked to model an early HST set, and want to make sure it is as accurate as possible. Also, if anyone knows a good reference book for this, I would love to know.

 

Mike

1. Looking at formations for 1986, the WR sets were formed quite orderly, but by then the TGS cars were inserted, and something tells me that the extra TS cars were added out of sequence initially. These were then removed again when the TGS deliveries started, which was from 1980 onwards. ER sets were a bit more jumbled, as were NE-SW.

 

2. I think you are right there.

 

3. Not sure on that one, but if anywhere, it would have been there.

 

4. There may have been the odd DMB without deflectors and a TGS, but the mod was well under way by the time the TGS deliveries started.

 

Dave

[br2975]

From one of my notebooks, a few examples of GWML sets during 1979.

253007 43014 41015 41016 40007 42090 42021 42022 42023 43120 02/05/1979 Cardiff

253010 43020 41021 41022 40010 42093 42030 42031 42032 43021 15/05/1979 Cardiff

253013 43027 41051 41052 40309 42076 42075 42077 42108 43026 02/05/1979 Cardiff

253014 43029 41029 41030 40014 42097 42042 42043 42044 43028 01/09/1979 Cardiff

253015 43127 41031 41032 40304 42098 42045 42046 42047 43031 28/08/1979 Cardiff

253017 43120 41036 41035 40305 42053 42052 42051 42100 43035 15/05/1979 Cardiff

253020 43040 41041 41042 40017 42103 42061 42060 42062 43041 01/09/1979 Cardiff

253022 43016 41017 41018 40303 42091 42024 42025 42026 43017 01/09/1979 Cardiff

253023 43120 41048 41047 40308 42070 42071 42106 42069 43046 01/09/1979 Cardiff

253024 43048 41050 41049 40004 42074 42072 42107 42073 43049 15/05/1979 Cardiff

253027 43030 41056 41055 40323 42110 42082 42083 42081 43019 28/08/1979 Cardiff

253028 43125 41122 41121 40322 42253 42251 42252 42254 43126 18/08/1979 Cardiff

253030 43129 41126 41125 40008 42261 42262 42260 42268 43130 28/08/1979 Cardiff

Brian R

Edited September 13, 2017 by br2975

[Robert Shrives]

Hi 

agree with all above but will check some works pics about in books for inner ends. It is interesting to look at the HST sets to day and how many have 3 or 4 std trailers still consecutively numbered. Messed a little with TGS and UAT fitted vehicles.  Does get worse with modern sets - the XC HSTs XC01 and XC02 are HST trailers in the main with the catering cars loco conversions and XC 3, 4 and 5 being mainly loco hauled convserions with the TGS being the HST trailer vehicle..

 

Robert  

[PoshPaws]

From one of my notebooks, a few examples of GWML sets during 1979.253007 43014 41015 41016 40007 42090 42021 42022 42023 43120 02/05/1979 Cardiff253010 43020 41021 41022 40010 42093 42030 42031 42032 43021 15/05/1979 Cardiff253013 43027 41051 41052 40309 42076 42075 42077 42108 43026 02/05/1979 Cardiff253014 43029 41029 41030 40014 42097 42042 42043 42044 43028 01/09/1979 Cardiff253015 43127 41031 41032 40304 42098 42045 42046 42047 43031 28/08/1979 Cardiff253017 43120 41036 41035 40305 42053 42052 42051 42100 43035 15/05/1979 Cardiff253020 43040 41041 41042 40017 42103 42061 42060 42062 43041 01/09/1979 Cardiff253022 43016 41017 41018 40303 42091 42024 42025 42026 43017 01/09/1979 Cardiff253023 43120 41048 41047 40308 42070 42071 42106 42069 43046 01/09/1979 Cardiff253024 43048 41050 41049 40004 42074 42072 42107 42073 43049 15/05/1979 Cardiff253027 43030 41056 41055 40323 42110 42082 42083 42081 43019 28/08/1979 Cardiff253028 43125 41122 41121 40322 42253 42251 42252 42254 43126 18/08/1979 Cardiff253030 43129 41126 41125 40008 42261 42262 42260 42268 43130 28/08/1979 CardiffBrian R

Actually that's a really useful post because it shows where in the rake the additional TS went. Thank you.

[stovepipe]

In mid-April 1980 I observed four TGSs up to 44013 in service on the WR, with some sets still to receive them. The complete sets noted were:

 

41015 41016 40007 42023 42022 42021 44009

41045 41046 40002 42066 42105 42067 42068

 

There were still Power Cars without smoke deflectors in Autumn1980, so there was perhaps a 6-month period when TGS could be seen with original condition PCs.

[PoshPaws]

I just want to thank everyone for the really fast and detailed answer so far. I really appreciate your help and hope I can return it some day.

 

Mike

[Rivercider]

I have  a list from April 1978 after the WR sets were reformed.

The additional TS 42084 to 42110 were added in sequence to sets 253001 - 253027 respectively

TRSB sets

253001  43003  41003 41004 40001 42084 42003 42004 42005  43002

up to

253017  43035  41035 41036 40017 42100 42051 42052 42053  43034

 

TRUB(?) sets

253018  43037  41037 41038 40300 42101 42054 42055 42056  43036

up to

253027  43055  41055 41056 40309 42110 42081 42082  42083  43054

 

cheers

Edited September 13, 2017 by Rivercider

[Commoner]

I am off to work, so will give a detailed response later, but this may help.  W42084-110 were constructed and delivered from May-August 1977.  The process of transferring TRUKs and TRSBs to the ER was a slow process and TRUBs didn't arrive until March 1978.  The WR fleet gradually moved to having a single catering car gradually, and 42084-110 were booked in series to be placed in 253 001-027.  So 253 001 had 42084, 253 002 had 42085 etc.

 

Thanks

 

Kevin (Commoner)

[keefer]

"3. I seem to recall that depot allocation stickers were carried on car ends, below the C3 restriction label and the technical details. Again, can anyone either confirm or correct this?"

 

i thought i had a photo that would show this, unfortunately i was concentrating on the data panel!

 

 

The reason i took this snap is because it was Coach B of an Aberdeen-KX cl.254 set (with TRUK/TRSB) and i thought it was odd to have a cl.253 vehicle.

This was later than your time period (June 1983) - i think i've read there was a big reorganisation of sets in 1981/2 with some 253 trailers going to augment the ECML sets?

 

 

Edited February 28, 2023 by keefer

[Commoner]

Promised a more detailed answer to your questions in addition to my earlier posts.

 

1. Does anyone recall whether the TS cars inserted in the sets to replace the TRUK were shuffled around between sets to keep numbering consecutive so, for example, 253001 would have W42003/4/5/6, or whether the new build TS was just swapped in one per set making the above W43003/4/5/91? I know this would have been a big exercise, but BR was rather proud of the HSTs.

 

Only 16 TRUKs were actually delivered to the WR, 40511/13/14/18 and the first to leave was 40502 which went to Works in June 77.  This was followed by others through 1977/78.  Initially the additional trailers (42084-110) ordered to enable the 27 WR sets to be formed with one catering car were used quite randomly.  42085 for instance spent along time in the formation of 253 018 in the summer of 77 when it was formed with a single TRSB.  Set 253 027 when it was initially formed consisted of 41055/56, 40026, 42081/93/97/99, while its booked TS's 42082/83 were in use in other sets with 42110 yet to be delivered.  Formations began to settle down gradually, and often the insertion of the booked additional TS occurred after individual sets returned from overhaul.  The catering vehicle transfers was finally completed in September 1978, by which time most sets were formed as booked.  The main exception was that the TRUBs allocated to OOC settled down in 253 002/4/6/8 in 1979, while 253 018/20/22/24/26 were formed with TRSBs, 40015/17/02/04/06 from memory.

2. I seem to remember that while there were two catering cars they were both orientated with the seating area toward the centre of the train, then single catering cars were orientated with the seating portion facing second class on a TRSB and first class on a TRUB. Can anyone confirm or correct this?

 

Many OOC sets ran with their TRUK with the passenger accommodation adjacent to First Class.  Examples noted in October 1977 were 253 008/20/26.  SPM sets usually had TRUK and TRSBs marshalled with the kitchen/buffet counter area at the London end.  TRUBs were nearly always formed with the passenger accommodation next to First Class, while TRSBs could in single catering car sets be found either way round.  

3. I seem to recall that depot allocation stickers were carried on car ends, below the C3 restriction label and the technical details. Again, can anyone either confirm or correct this?

 

The addition of depot stickers to trailer vehicles in the way you describe came much later on the WR.  In the mid-1980s, LA and SPM often placed their respective depot sticker underneath the vehicle number.  In terms of power cars OOC started applying depot stickers above the 253 unit number from 1980 onwards.  Later all depots placed stickers under the 43xxx number.

4. Does anyone know whether the DMBs were fitted with rooftop smoke deflectors before or after the TGS cars were inserted?

 

The first WR PCs fitted with smoke deflectors were 43012/13 in October 1977.  43012 lost its deflector following a turbocharger fire in May 78.  The fitting of the deflectors fleet wide on the WR began in June 1979 (43026/27) at overhaul.  However, their application was random and some power cars went to Works after this date and returned without deflectors.  I suspect this was because the manufacture of deflectors couldn't match the number of power cars going through works.  The last WR examples to receive deflectors at Overhaul were 43049-52 in Spring 1981 - all of which had previously been through Works in late 1979/early 1980 and returned without deflectors.  In August 79 an instruction was issued on the WR for PCs without deflectors, not to refit exhaust ports which were prone to falling off.  From then, some power cars could be observed with a flush roof where the ports used to be.  TGS were gradually introduced on the WR from 14.04.80. and by mid July all operational sets had 1 inserted.  It was then very possible to see a TGS set with a power car (or 2) without deflectors.  The PCs for the west of England build, 43124-52 all had deflectors from new.

A bit rushed but hope it helps.

Edited September 13, 2017 by Commoner

[stovepipe]

TGS were gradually introduced on the WR from 14.04.80. and by mid July all operational sets had 1 inserted. 

 

Interesting, my observations in post #8 were on 19.04.80.

[Commoner]

Interesting, my observations in post #8 were on 19.04.80.

Here's my records from that date.

 

253 001:-    43002      41004      41003      40001      42004      42003       42005      44001      43003                       

 

253 002:-    43004      41146      41006      40328      42006      42007       42008      44002      43005                       

 

253 003:-    43006      41008      41144      40304      42011      42010       42009      42273      43007                       

 

253 004:-    43009      41009      41010      40301      42093      42014       42012      42299      43008                       

 

253 006:-    43012      41013      41014      40302      42018      42019       42020      42300      43013                       

 

253 007:-    43014      41016      41015      40007      42023      42022       42021      44009      43015                       

 

253 011:-    43022      41024      41023      40011      42035      42288       42034      44011      43023                       

 

253 013:-    43027      41027      41028      40013      42039      42041       42040      44013      43026                      

 

253 014:-    43028      41029      41030      40014      42097      42042       42091      42044      43029                       

 

253 015:-    43031      41132      41139      40335      42098      42045       42046      42047      43030                       

 

253 016:-    43033      41033      41034      40016      42043      42049       42050      44008      43032                       

 

253 018:-    43036      41038      41037      40006      42101      42054       42055      42056      43037                            

 

253 019:-    43039      41039      41040      40306      42058      42059       42057      44019      43038                       

 

253 021:-    43043      41044      41043      40307      42065      42064       42063      42104      43042                       

 

253 022:-    43024      41045      41046      40002      42066      42105       42067      42068      43045                       

 

253 026:-    43052      41053      41054      40015      42078      42079       42080      44000      43053                       

 

253 027:-    43055      41056      41055      40008      42083      42082       42081      42110      43054                       

 

253 028:-    43126      41122      41121      40322      42253      42251       42252      42254      43125                    

 

253 029:-    43128      41123      41124      40323      42256      42258       42255      42092      43127                       

 

253 030:-    43129      41126      41125      40324      42259      42261       42262      42260      43025                       

 

253 031:-    43131      41127      41128      40325      42263      42264       42265      42266      43136                       

 

253 032:-    43134      41130      41129      40326      42269      42268       42270      42267      43133                       

 

253 035:-    43139      41136      41135      40329      42281      42282       42279      42280      43140                       

 

253 038:-    43121      41141      41142      40332      42294      42293       42292      42291      43132                       

Edited September 13, 2017 by Commoner

[Gwiwer]

 

 

2. I seem to remember that while there were two catering cars they were both orientated with the seating area toward the centre of the train, then single catering cars were orientated with the seating portion facing second class on a TRSB and first class on a TRUB. Can anyone confirm or correct this?

3. I seem to recall that depot allocation stickers were carried on car ends, below the C3 restriction label and the technical details. Again, can anyone either confirm or correct this?

 

2.  It varied and it changed over time so the only really reliable method is to use dated photographic evidence.  But in general the seated area would be marshalled adjacent to the coach which it matched so TRSB with seats at the TS end and TRUK with seats at the FK end.  In original formation the TRSB should have had (but I cannot confirm that it did) the seats adjacent to the single TS next to the power car in order to balance the number of seats either side of the servery.  The TRUK had no buffet counter or serving area as such though the kitchen door had a drop-down flap which was used at times for this purpose and had to be on those occasions when a TRUK was the only catering vehicle in the set.  It happened.  My recollection is that the coach was marshalled with this door at the TF end in order to facilitate table service of meals to first class passengers as originally intended when the vehicles were designed and formations specified.

 

3.  Usually on a sticker below the carriage number rather than on the ends

[PoshPaws]

Promised a more detailed answer to your questions in addition to my earlier posts.

 

1. Does anyone recall whether the TS cars inserted in the sets to replace the TRUK were shuffled around between sets to keep numbering consecutive so, for example, 253001 would have W42003/4/5/6, or whether the new build TS was just swapped in one per set making the above W43003/4/5/91? I know this would have been a big exercise, but BR was rather proud of the HSTs.

 

Only 16 TRUKs were actually delivered to the WR, 40511/13/14/18 and the first to leave was 40502 which went to Works in June 77.  This was followed by others through 1977/78.  Initially the additional trailers (42084-110) ordered to enable the 27 WR sets to be formed with one catering car were used quite randomly.  42085 for instance spent along time in the formation of 253 018 in the summer of 77 when it was formed with a single TRSB.  Set 253 027 when it was initially formed consisted of 41055/56, 40026, 42081/93/97/99, while its booked TS's 42082/83 were in use in other sets with 42110 yet to be delivered.  Formations began to settle down gradually, and often the insertion of the booked additional TS occurred after individual sets returned from overhaul.  The catering vehicle transfers was finally completed in September 1978, by which time most sets were formed as booked.  The main exception was that the TRUBs allocated to OOC settled down in 253 002/4/6/8 in 1979, while 253 018/20/22/24/26 were formed with TRSBs, 40015/17/02/04/06 from memory.

2. I seem to remember that while there were two catering cars they were both orientated with the seating area toward the centre of the train, then single catering cars were orientated with the seating portion facing second class on a TRSB and first class on a TRUB. Can anyone confirm or correct this?

 

Many OOC sets ran with their TRUK with the passenger accommodation adjacent to First Class.  Examples noted in October 1977 were 253 008/20/26.  SPM sets usually had TRUK and TRSBs marshalled with the kitchen/buffet counter area at the London end.  TRUBs were nearly always formed with the passenger accommodation next to First Class, while TRSBs could in single catering car sets be found either way round.  

3. I seem to recall that depot allocation stickers were carried on car ends, below the C3 restriction label and the technical details. Again, can anyone either confirm or correct this?

 

The addition of depot stickers to trailer vehicles in the way you describe came much later on the WR.  In the mid-1980s, LA and SPM often placed their respective depot sticker underneath the vehicle number.  In terms of power cars OOC started applying depot stickers above the 253 unit number from 1980 onwards.  Later all depots placed stickers under the 43xxx number.

4. Does anyone know whether the DMBs were fitted with rooftop smoke deflectors before or after the TGS cars were inserted?

 

The first WR PCs fitted with smoke deflectors were 43012/13 in October 1977.  43012 lost its deflector following a turbocharger fire in May 78.  The fitting of the deflectors fleet wide on the WR began in June 1979 (43026/27) at overhaul.  However, their application was random and some power cars went to Works after this date and returned without deflectors.  I suspect this was because the manufacture of deflectors couldn't match the number of power cars going through works.  The last WR examples to receive deflectors at Overhaul were 43049-52 in Spring 1981 - all of which had previously been through Works in late 1979/early 1980 and returned without deflectors.  In August 79 an instruction was issued on the WR for PCs without deflectors, not to refit exhaust ports which were prone to falling off.  From then, some power cars could be observed with a flush roof where the ports used to be.  TGS were gradually introduced on the WR from 14.04.80. and by mid July all operational sets had 1 inserted.  It was then very possible to see a TGS set with a power car (or 2) without deflectors.  The PCs for the west of England build, 43124-52 all had deflectors from new.

A bit rushed but hope it helps.

You may think it's rushed, but it looks to me like you have put a lot of thought into it. I really appreciate such a thorough and helpful answer, and together with all the other really great answers this has made me a lot more confident in ordering the additional parts that I need. Thank you.very much indeed.

[PoshPaws]

I would like to thank everyone who has taken the time and made the effort to help me out here. This was only my second post on RMweb, and I never expected to get so much help.

 

I am now confident enough to order the extra coaches that I need, plus the window frames, lighting bars etc etc to make an all singing, all dancing early HST, and especially to order the necessary transfers (would you believe Railtec even introduced a new customisable sheet to their catalogue for this project? - usual disclaimer).

 

Guess it's time to find every early photo I can of a TRUK, maybe the TRSB too...