Signalling Sheffield Exchange Mk2

[Clive Mortimore]

As part of my planing for Sheffield Exchange (Mk2) I have devised the signalling of the scenic section. I first thought of semaphore signals but the number of leavers reached about 150 and there isn't the room for a box that big. I did think of two boxes one for the L&YR side and one for the GNR. I have decided that the LMS, as the main party in the joint station got the LNER to pay for a modern signalling system similar to that put in place by Westinghouse at Manchester Exchange and Victoria.

 

Rather than putting my plan up and everyone trying to redraw it for me I thought I would ask if there are any modellers in RMwebland who would like to have a go at designing the signalling diagram, remember it is 1929 "modern image". To make life easier shunting back into the station, or to the loco yards is only done on the two exit lines.

 

The point numbers are my reference number for wiring them.

 

 

Thank you for looking at this post.

[Kelly]

Clive, drop Natalie an email and I'm sure she'd be happy to help you with this.

[TheSignalEngineer]

If you are doing power signalling it would be a miniature lever frame so only 2" centres. I've got an article about Fenchurch St resignalling by SGE in 1935 if you are interested. That was a 140 lever box which was elevated over the tracks. I may also have a couple of old Westinghouse articles.

[Clive Mortimore]

If you are doing power signalling it would be a miniature lever frame so only 2" centres. I've got an article about Fenchurch St resignalling by SGE in 1935 if you are interested. That was a 140 lever box which was elevated over the tracks. I may also have a couple of old Westinghouse articles.

Hi SE

 

Thanks, I have the Warburton article in the LMS Journal no23. There is also this wonderful web site http://www.ekeving.se/ext/uk/VicEx_Manchester/index.html

and this one http://www.wbsframe.mste.co.uk/public/index.htm

 

My understanding the number of levers would be slightly less in a power box compared to a mechanical one as there would not be the facing point lock levers as the locking is incorporated in the point machines. It will still be quite a large box dominating the ends of platforms 4 and 5.

 

Following the recent signalling thread for railway modellers where many people contributed with knowledge, I was just wondering if between them all they would arrive at something similar to what I have already drawn. If they do then I am on the right track. What I find when someone post a "Can you check my signalling" thread they get so many answers I think half of them throw the train set away and take up another hobby in frustration. So for a change I thought I would present a blank canvas.

[jim.snowdon]

With a miniature lever frame and electric operation, the lever count may be smaller than you might think as one signal lever would be used for multiple routes, with the route set being used to determine which signal cleared (if semaphore) or what the route indicator displayed. As a comparison, the frame for Liverpool Lime Street was reduced from 155 to 95 levers, including six spares, by this methodology when the present Westinghouse frame was commissioned in 1948. (I'm not certain whether it is still in use, as control is due to be moved to the ROC in Manchester.)

 

Jim

[TheSignalEngineer]

Thanks Clive. The Manchester website is a very interesting one. Clearly shown there especially on the diagram of Deal Street is the way that some of the colour-light heads on through running lines replicate the function of the semaphore dolls. There are other cases where 'optical projection' theatre route indicators were used, this was before the introduction of 'feathers'.

The number of levers is economised by selection of which one clears by points locked and detected, e.g 19a, 19b 19c outside Deal Street box, where three heads on the same line are controlled by one lever, or 74a. 74b, 74c at Victoria west where three signals on different lines but all reading to signal 73 on the Down Slow work in the same way.

There are also Pull-push levers for shunt signals, e.g 1 Push and 1 Pull at the two ends Deal Street's Fast Lines crossover No.13.

 

It would be an interesting exercise to signal your double Minories layout to the principles used at Victoria.

 

Eric

Edited September 16, 2017 by TheSignalEngineer

[uax6]

One of the small two aspect colour lights from that installation is now with a friend of mine, its a lovely little thing, with LM&SR cast into the rear lid...

 

Andy G

[The Stationmaster]

Clive the main aspect running signals should be pretty straightforward and if you look at the Deal Street diagram it gives a pretty good idea of how subsidiary and shunting signals were provided/arranged

 

http://www.wbsframe.mste.co.uk/public/pdf/DealStreet_trackplan.pdf

 

Virtually all your routes would look to be low speed so wouldn't need the cluster heads (which were used as splitting signal heads for the faster turnouts although I do note that cluster heads as splitting signals were used into the bays at the Deal St end of Exchange station.  However for the model I think the vertically arranged heads with projector route indicators would be the best approach as your 'Home' Signals will read to a considerable number of routes.

[TheSignalEngineer]

Note on the Manchester Victoria pictures the semaphore Distant signals in the old painting style, the same as the Home arms, just the fishtails to differentiate between them. 

 

The aspects on the Shunt signals were interesting in that they differentiated between through and dead end roads showing Green or Yellow respectively. Call-on aspects showed white for proceed.

 

4-aspect heads had the second yellow aspect below the red. 

 

Regarding the mixture of 'straight' heads and clusters on the same line, I never worked out the logic of why these were provided in the way they were. Coming through on the Down direction towards Ordsall Lane it was possible to get something like Cluster w/o Theatre, Cluster with Theatre, Cluster w/o Theatre, Straight head with Theatre, Splitting Cluster. I wondered if it was due to sighting issues. 

 

Incidentally I refurbished one of the clusters when I was in the S&T shops as a trainee in the 1960s.

[jim.snowdon]

It is worth remembering that at the time Manchester Victoria was converted to colour light signalling, the whole concept of multiple aspect signalling was still in its formative stage, with various ideas being tried out on different railways in terms of signal head layout and methods for route indication. The standards that we have now were, I think, essentially derived from Southern Railway practice, once it had settled down to the four in line head, with the "finger" junction route indicators.

 

Jim

[Clive Mortimore]

HI All

 

While trying to find a clear photo of a Westinghouse M style point machine I came across the Brighton ASLEF Branch website's page on the Southern Railway signalling of Brighton.

Contemporary with that going on in Manchester. 

[TheSignalEngineer]

Colour light signalling was developing very rapidly in the 1920s and 1930s. The IRSE and the MoT were very involved in 1921 when committee reports into three-position semaphore and colour lights considered the way forward. Up to about 1932 the common method for junctions was to use separate heads on colour lights in the same way as semaphore dolls for each route. Then under the guidance of A E Tattersall, Signal Engineer for the Northern section of the LNER, the first Position Light Junction Indicators were installed at Thirsk. The early version had neon tubes which gave an indication of the route set. these were not particularly successful and the modern version with a row of lamps became the norm by the end of the 1930s. 

[TheSignalEngineer]

HI All

 

While trying to find a clear photo of a Westinghouse M style point machine I came across the Brighton ASLEF Branch website's page on the Southern Railway signalling of Brighton.

Contemporary with that going on in Manchester. 

Great find. Shows that the SR were using multiple heads where they couldn't use Theatre indicators at that time although Thorrowgood of their signalling department had wanted to develop a junction indicator for higher speed lines. I understand that he was beaten by Board politics. By the time that Waterloo to Vauxhall was done in 1936 they had started to use Feathers. They were also widely used by the LMS at Rugby by 1939. By that time the colour light signal had evolved into what was the standard until the introduction of LED signals a few years ago.

[The Stationmaster]

It is worth remembering that at the time Manchester Victoria was converted to colour light signalling, the whole concept of multiple aspect signalling was still in its formative stage, with various ideas being tried out on different railways in terms of signal head layout and methods for route indication. The standards that we have now were, I think, essentially derived from Southern Railway practice, once it had settled down to the four in line head, with the "finger" junction route indicators.

 

Jim

 

Certainly 4 aspect signals first made their appearance on the Southern Railway (and used both cluster heads and some with the 4 lights arranged vertically; I think the difference of application was probably as much down to loading gauge clearance as anything else although sighting might have played a part as well).  As Signal Engineer has said the ('feather' type)  position light junction indicator was developed on the LNER to solve the problem of long distance sighting of separate signal heads for each route which tended to merge as 'white light' when seen from a distance.  The first attempt overcome this  was to use approach lighting of splitting signals but it wasn't successful so the second idea was to use fluorescent tubes - including one arranged vertically above the main aspects to indicate the 'straight' route.  These it would seem weren't entirely successful so the principle of using a row of 5 white lights at an angle to the main head was developed - Vanns dates this to 1933.

 

The Southern and LT of course adopted a similar principle but using 3 light instead of 5 in their junction indcators - the oldest Southern application of JIs which I can trace thus far was in the South Western Line resignlling scheme out from Waterloo installed in 1936.

 

Incidentally the position of the colours in the vertically arranged 4 aspect signal heads was not wholly standardised in the 1930s as signals were installed in the post war (1949) GE line resignalling with a yellow aspect at the bottom.

[TheSignalEngineer]

I've seen a diagram from about 1922 which showed rows of five lights in a discussion on three position signalling vs. colour lights. I believe this may have been trialled overseas but can't find any reference to its use in the UK.

[St Enodoc]

Certainly 4 aspect signals first made their appearance on the Southern Railway (and used both cluster heads and some with the 4 lights arranged vertically; I think the difference of application was probably as much down to loading gauge clearance as anything else although sighting might have played a part as well).  As Signal Engineer has said the ('feather' type)  position light junction indicator was developed on the LNER to solve the problem of long distance sighting of separate signal heads for each route which tended to merge as 'white light' when seen from a distance.  The first attempt overcome this  was to use approach lighting of splitting signals but it wasn't successful so the second idea was to use fluorescent tubes - including one arranged vertically above the main aspects to indicate the 'straight' route.  These it would seem weren't entirely successful so the principle of using a row of 5 white lights at an angle to the main head was developed - Vanns dates this to 1933.

 

The Southern and LT of course adopted a similar principle but using 3 light instead of 5 in their junction indcators - the oldest Southern application of JIs which I can trace thus far was in the South Western Line resignlling scheme out from Waterloo installed in 1936.

 

Incidentally the position of the colours in the vertically arranged 4 aspect signal heads was not wholly standardised in the 1930s as signals were installed in the post war (1949) GE line resignalling with a yellow aspect at the bottom.

Mike, 1933 would correspond with the date of the Brighton Line electrification.

[TheSignalEngineer]

Mike, 1933 would correspond with the date of the Brighton Line electrification.

The Brighton Line had some junction signals with multiple heads up to at least the 1960s. Many retained the old layout of second yellow at the bottom.

 

Eric

Edited September 19, 2017 by TheSignalEngineer

[Dagworth]

The Brighton Line had some junction signals with multiple heads up to at least the 1960s. Many retained the old layout of second yellow at the bottom.

 

Eric

There are photos of 4 aspect signals at Stratford (London) in the 80s with that arrangement of aspects.

 

Andi

[The Stationmaster]

There are photos of 4 aspect signals at Stratford (London) in the 80s with that arrangement of aspects.

 

Andi

 

I took one - I went there for that very purpose, in the early 1990s

 

I've seen a diagram from about 1922 which showed rows of five lights in a discussion on three position signalling vs. colour lights. I believe this may have been trialled overseas but can't find any reference to its use in the UK.

The arrangement was used in at least one (British) empire country and included a position light JI arranged vertically for the 'straight' route but I'm not sure when it dates from although I'm fairly sure that it was Pre-WWII

[Fay Singpoint]

We have a cluster head in our stores. Just trying to find an excuse to install it somewhere on the railway.