Victorian GWR Coaches Ruabon Dolgelley

[ChrisN]

Looking at the OS six inch map of 1888 - 1913 there is no sign of a bridge.  There maybe on the 1920 to 1940 map but there is on the 1937 map.  The picture is probably pre 1922 as it is a Cambrian train.  I would assume later rather than earlier.

 

Jus for fun here is the rainfall map.  Maps from the Library of Scotland

[MarcD]

You don't think the OS dropped a clanger? The bridge doesn't appear on either the 12inch or 6 inch maps. I have seen the photo before in a book I will have look in the morning to see if I can find it.

 

Marc 

[ChrisN]

I have seen the photo as well and here it is.  Barmouth 1919.  I know it does not look like Barmouth but Barmouth has a long platform and the station building is behind you on the right.  When I first saw this picture I spent a while scratching my head to work out how it could be Barmouth and where it was taken from.  Here is another photo showing the whole platform.

 

If anyone has not seen this collection of pictures it is well worth a browse, it has some wonderful pictures.

 

As for the OS map I think we can safely say the bridge was not there in 1888.  The National Library of Scotland has no map of the area between the two I posted.so an actual build date of the footbridge is difficult to pin down.

Edited September 22, 2017 by ChrisN

[Compound2632]

I don't think I have ever seen a post 1909 pre 1923 photos. Pre 1909 the coaches were manufactured by Wright and Son (Metropolitan C&W). Presuming the Cambrian ran stock on the branch in the same way as their other smaller branches, I would guess that the coaches would be a mixture of 4 wheel coaches either outside framed Metropolitan or those built by Ashbury's.  

 

The photo is Blodwell junction showing Ashbury coaches

 

Marc

 

The second carriage there, the first/second composite, has a very 'early LNWR' look to it. Is it perhaps an early Metropolitan RC&W product? Metropolitan's Saltley works had been the LNWR's carriage works until the latter moved to Wolverton. There is evidence (in the Isle of Man amongst other places) that Metropolitan inherited many of the works' established design features. Apart from the panelling, note the outside axleguards. The diagonal end tie rod is also distinctive.* [Ref. discussion in The North Western at Work, Hendry and Hendry (Patrick Stephens, 1990), pp. 54-55.]

 

Alternatively, it could be a LNWR coach bought second-hand?

 

*"The bosses to the pendant are typical" (Apologies for using this quote again.)

 

EDIT: There's a LRM kit.

Edited September 22, 2017 by Compound2632

[ChrisN]

The second carriage there, the first/second composite, has a very 'early LNWR' look to it. Is it perhaps an early Metropolitan RC&W product? Metropolitan's Saltley works had been the LNWR's carriage works until the latter moved to Wolverton. There is evidence (in the Isle of Man amongst other places) that Metropolitan inherited many of the works' established design features. Apart from the panelling, note the outside axleguards. The diagonal end tie rod is also distinctive.* [Ref. discussion in The North Western at Work, Hendry and Hendry (Patrick Stephens, 1990), pp. 54-55.]

 

Alternatively, it could be a LNWR coach bought second-hand?

 

*"The bosses to the pendant are typical" (Apologies for using this quote again.)

 

EDIT: There's a LRM kit.

 

Steven,

There is an even better photo, I think, in one of the books showing this carriage.  London Road Models do a kit of a 24ft 1850s composite which is the dead spit of it.  I cannot remember without looking if it was bought new or second hand, but if second hand then very early on.

 

The kit is sitting in my 'I must learn how to solder' pile

[ChrisN]

C.C. Green's Cambrian Railways Album Vol 1, top of page 22 is a picture of said coach and the caption says it is LNWR style and delivered in July 1864.

[Edwardian]

 

*"The bosses to the pendant are typical" (Apologies for using this quote again.)

 

 

[Compound2632]

 

 

*"The bosses to the pendant are typical" (Apologies for using this quote again.)

 

 

 

 

That's the one. Apologies we've been there before but sometimes it becomes apposite.

[Edwardian]

That's the one. Apologies we've been there before but sometimes it becomes apposite.

 

Or, in this case, apostolic.

[ChrisN]

I assume that as I can build these coaches from Ratio kits that they have proper Ratio coach seats and not wooden boards?  That is even the third class had some up holster.

 

Would the composites have been first/second as GWR still had second class?  Finally third class is red, first class is blue, second class is?  Also did the interiors have different finishes or colours.  Sorry, I do know the answers for Cambrian coaches but not for GWR.  Just point me in the right direction.

[NCB]

There's a pic of a composite on page 57 of Slinn 2nd ed in 1900 showing 2 firsts sandwiched between 2 seconds. The coach is labelled Corwen to Bala.

[ChrisN]

I have posted this question already on another thread but it is quite old and no one has picked it up.

 

The thread  was asking about coach interior colours to which this was part of a reply by 'buffalo' that is relevant to my period:-

 

Michael Harris, Great Western coaches from 1890 has:

Current in 1890-1895: 1st Crimson Plush, 2nd and 3rd Rep, smoking compts in leather

 

 

I asked was the 'rep' for 2nd and 3rd class was the same, which I assume they were, and what colour was the leather?  Natural dark brown, black?

 

Also I know on the Cambrian the wooden interiors were different on different classes of coach, was that the same with the GWR?

 

Finally, I am aware of First Class Family saloons, and Third Class saloons, (one was hired regularly on the Cambrian to transport a football team to matches), but what sort of family would hire a Third Class Family Saloon?  A middle class family who might normally travel Second Class?

 

The last one is relevant for a Christmas present.  Shire Scenes do the third class saloon which has been restored at Didcot.  If I can find enough evidence that a family would have used it then I will purchase one and have it given to me at the appropriate time.  It will then be another coach to be attached to the back of a train on a random basis.

[Edwardian]

I have posted this question already on another thread but it is quite old and no one has picked it up.

 

The thread  was asking about coach interior colours to which this was part of a reply by 'buffalo' that is relevant to my period:-

 

Michael Harris, Great Western coaches from 1890 has:

Current in 1890-1895: 1st Crimson Plush, 2nd and 3rd Rep, smoking compts in leather

 

 

I asked was the 'rep' for 2nd and 3rd class was the same, which I assume they were, and what colour was the leather?  Natural dark brown, black?

 

Also I know on the Cambrian the wooden interiors were different on different classes of coach, was that the same with the GWR?

 

Finally, I am aware of First Class Family saloons, and Third Class saloons, (one was hired regularly on the Cambrian to transport a football team to matches), but what sort of family would hire a Third Class Family Saloon?  A middle class family who might normally travel Second Class?

 

The last one is relevant for a Christmas present.  Shire Scenes do the third class saloon which has been restored at Didcot.  If I can find enough evidence that a family would have used it then I will purchase one and have it given to me at the appropriate time.  It will then be another coach to be attached to the back of a train on a random basis.

 

Were not Third Class saloons generally "picnic saloons" typically used for works outings or days at the races?

[ChrisN]

Were not Third Class saloons generally "picnic saloons" typically used for works outings or days at the races?

 

This is what surprised me as the one at Didcot was called a family saloon.

[Compound2632]

This is what surprised me as the one at Didcot was called a family saloon.

 

From the interior, it looks to be fitted up as what the Midland and North Western called a picnic saloon. I see it's said to be Diagram G20 - how is that described? It is not unknown for preservationists to mis-identify vehicles but I would be surprised in this case. The North Western only had third class picnic saloons but the Midland had a few first class ones as well as thirds. My impression is that these would be hired by a larger group, whereas family carriages - always fitted up as first class - were for smaller groups.

 

Midland Railway Timetable, July, August, and September 1903:

 

"Saloon, Family, and Invalid Carriages.

 

"Carriages ... can usually be provided on prior application, the minimum charges being four full first class and four full third class ordinary or tourist tickets, or fares equivalent thereto. Each passenger travelling must hold a ticket corresponding with the class of carriage used, and if the party in any case exceeds the number named above, an additional fare must be paid for each additional passenger."

 

So a first class group would be provided with a family carriage and a third class group with a picnic saloon. Four third class passengers in a picnic saloon would rattle around rather and hardly be a paying proposition for the company! The weight would be only a little bit less than a five-compartment third capable of seating 50.

 

Also:

 

"Picnic and Pleasure Parties.

 

"Cheap return tickets, usually at a single fare and a quarter for the double journey (minimum 1S.) are issued to parties of not less than six first or ten third class passengers, desirous of making pleasure excursions to pleasure resorts on or adjacent to the Midland Railway, on previous application being made. Single fares for the double journey will be charged for parties of 50 first class or 100 third class passengers to stations distant not less than 30 miles." 

[Edwardian]

This is what surprised me as the one at Didcot was called a family saloon.

 

A family saloon will typically have 2 classes of accommodation, family and servants, a luggage compartment and loos.

 

A Third Class saloon is arranged as a picnic saloon with bench seating and loo. One can see why this might appeal for a day trip, but use of a saloon presumably offers few advantages to the Third Class passenger embarking upon a long through journey.

 

I would say that GWR G20 is your classic Third Class picnic saloon type, as it has 2 saloons inter-connected via the passage between the loos, lending itself to be hired out by one large or two smaller parties. One can imagine how, for a race special or works outing, a number of these could be marshalled and booked by the saloon, rather than by the vehicle.  The initial Lot was for a dozen vehicles, but up to 1898 54 of them had been built, which, to me, suggests the use of them en masse for an excursion, rather than suggesting a high number needed for roaming the system individually.

 

At 1894 for the first Lot, it squeaks into your period.

 

There were First Class equivalents of G20-type Third Class picnic saloons.  They tended to have clerestories.

 

EDIT: Mikkel has produced a fine looking G20: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/75/entry-11359-low-tech-coach-restoration-5/

Edited October 23, 2017 by Edwardian

[ChrisN]

From the interior, it looks to be fitted up as what the Midland and North Western called a picnic saloon. I see it's said to be Diagram G20 - how is that described? It is not unknown for preservationists to mis-identify vehicles but I would be surprised in this case. The North Western only had third class picnic saloons but the Midland had a few first class ones as well as thirds. My impression is that these would be hired by a larger group, whereas family carriages - always fitted up as first class - were for smaller groups.

 

Midland Railway Timetable, July, August, and September 1903:

 

"Saloon, Family, and Invalid Carriages.

 

"Carriages ... can usually be provided on prior application, the minimum charges being four full first class and four full third class ordinary or tourist tickets, or fares equivalent thereto. Each passenger travelling must hold a ticket corresponding with the class of carriage used, and if the party in any case exceeds the number named above, an additional fare must be paid for each additional passenger."

 

So a first class group would be provided with a family carriage and a third class group with a picnic saloon. Four third class passengers in a picnic saloon would rattle around rather and hardly be a paying proposition for the company! The weight would be only a little bit less than a five-compartment third capable of seating 50.

 

Also:

 

"Picnic and Pleasure Parties.

 

"Cheap return tickets, usually at a single fare and a quarter for the double journey (minimum 1S.) are issued to parties of not less than six first or ten third class passengers, desirous of making pleasure excursions to pleasure resorts on or adjacent to the Midland Railway, on previous application being made. Single fares for the double journey will be charged for parties of 50 first class or 100 third class passengers to stations distant not less than 30 miles." 

 

Thank you,

I missed the picture of the interior.  When I was at Didcot the saloon was past the section that had a walkway beside it so I could not see in.  I am sure they called it a Family Saloon but Penrhos here just calls it a saloon.  As it has a toilet it could possibly be used for longer journeys except it has no luggage compartment which going away for more than a day trip would be required. 

 

The timetable information is wonderful. 

[ChrisN]

A family saloon will typically have 2 classes of accommodation, family and servants, a luggage compartment and loos.

 

A Third Class saloon is arranged as a picnic saloon with bench seating and loo. One can see why this might appeal for a day trip, but use of a saloon presumably offers few advantages to the Third Class passenger embarking upon a long through journey.

 

I would say that GWR G20 is your classic Third Class picnic saloon type, as it has 2 saloons inter-connected via the passage between the loos, lending itself to be hired out by one large or two smaller parties. One can imagine how, for a race special or works outing, a number of these could be marshalled and booked by the saloon, rather than by the vehicle.  The initial Lot was for a dozen vehicles, but up to 1898 54 of them had been built, which, to me, suggests the use of them en masse for an excursion, rather than suggesting a high number needed for roaming the system individually.

 

At 1894 for the first Lot, it squeaks into your period.

 

There were First Class equivalents of G20-type Third Class picnic saloons.  They tended to have clerestories.

 

EDIT: Mikkel has produced a fine looking G20: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/75/entry-11359-low-tech-coach-restoration-5/

 

I think you are right and it is a picnic saloon, so unless I can think of a reason to send a saloon such as this down from Ruabon or similar then it is not useful.  Having said that it could be a group of farmers coming for market day.  It could be hiring fair day as well. All this is on my narrow gauge layout which my wife says I should build, with the implication she does not want me to take up the room with a large layout.  The Broad Gauge Society does a really nice diagram kit of G37 but it is a bit expensive for a whimsy. 

[ChrisN]

Just to resurrect this thread.  I have it on good authority that the farmers from the Bala area are hiring the saloon to get to the market, which is fortunate as it appeared in my stocking at Christmas, along with the Ratio chassis and Shire Scenes sides to do the rest of the Dolgelley train.  (I already have the Ratio coaches needed.)  The Ratio kits are currently being built as I am working away from home so thank you everyone who gave me advice.

 

Now an observation and a question that I posted on my layout thread but it attracted no answers.  I will try here before posting it in the GWR section.

 

 I was reading Bradshaws the other night, well there is nothing against it, and came across something interesting.  Now I am talking Bradshaws December 1895.   At 9.50 (mrn) the Birmingham and North Express left Paddington for Chester, first stop Oxford.  It arrived at Chester at 3.33 (aft) a total of 5 hrs 43 mins.  According to Bradshaws there was no through route to Barmouth so this express did not have the through coaches that left Paddington every morning.  However, if you changed at Shrewsbury and Welshpool you would get to Barmouth at 6.15 (aft) in January 1895 or 6.35 (aft) in December 1895.  (They slowed their timings!)  I find that interesting as that is the time that the LNWR through coaches arrived which left Euston at 9.30 (mrn).  It/they were bound for Pwllheli, hold that thought for a moment.

 

 

At 10.00 (mrn) another train left Paddington for Chester.  It made its first stop at, wait for it............. Westbounre Park, a total of 3 minutes later.  Next stop Ealing Broadway (GW) 10.16 (mrn).  Yes this will take a while, and it arrives in Chester at 4.33 (aft) a total of 6 hrs 33 mins, so perhaps as long as you might have feared.  The latter part of the journey it is running about an hour behind the Birmingham and North Express and arrives at Ruabon at 4.2 (aft), eight minutes before the train to Dolgelley leaves, the one that connects directly with the Cambrian train to Barmouth.  This is why I am certain that the through coaches were not on the earlier train as it would have meant the through coaches waiting around for an hour as there was no train earlier.  Now the through coaches would have arrived at any time in 1895 at 6.50 (aft) to find waiting for it the train that arrived up to 35 minutes earlier.  The reason being that it had a through coach to Pwllheli as well. 

 

So the choice was between, if you wanted to go to Barmouth, catching a slightly earlier train and changing twice, carrying any luggage you had, or staying in the 'comfort' of a through coach and arriving later.  Also if you arrived early and got on the wrong train.......

 

Finally, just out of interest as I will model neither train, what would the formations of these trains been?  Would the express have been the latest coaches and the 10.00 o'clock older stock?

 

If you have been, thanks for looking.

[Brassey]

Just to resurrect this thread.  I have it on good authority that the farmers from the Bala area are hiring the saloon to get to the market, which is fortunate as it appeared in my stocking at Christmas, along with the Ratio chassis and Shire Scenes sides to do the rest of the Dolgelley train.  (I already have the Ratio coaches needed.)  The Ratio kits are currently being built as I am working away from home so thank you everyone who gave me advice.

 

Now an observation and a question that I posted on my layout thread but it attracted no answers.  I will try here before posting it in the GWR section.

 

 I was reading Bradshaws the other night, well there is nothing against it, and came across something interesting.  Now I am talking Bradshaws December 1895.   At 9.50 (mrn) the Birmingham and North Express left Paddington for Chester, first stop Oxford.  It arrived at Chester at 3.33 (aft) a total of 5 hrs 43 mins.  According to Bradshaws there was no through route to Barmouth so this express did not have the through coaches that left Paddington every morning.  However, if you changed at Shrewsbury and Welshpool you would get to Barmouth at 6.15 (aft) in January 1895 or 6.35 (aft) in December 1895.  (They slowed their timings!)  I find that interesting as that is the time that the LNWR through coaches arrived which left Euston at 9.30 (mrn).  It/they were bound for Pwllheli, hold that thought for a moment.

 

 

At 10.00 (mrn) another train left Paddington for Chester.  It made its first stop at, wait for it............. Westbounre Park, a total of 3 minutes later.  Next stop Ealing Broadway (GW) 10.16 (mrn).  Yes this will take a while, and it arrives in Chester at 4.33 (aft) a total of 6 hrs 33 mins, so perhaps as long as you might have feared.  The latter part of the journey it is running about an hour behind the Birmingham and North Express and arrives at Ruabon at 4.2 (aft), eight minutes before the train to Dolgelley leaves, the one that connects directly with the Cambrian train to Barmouth.  This is why I am certain that the through coaches were not on the earlier train as it would have meant the through coaches waiting around for an hour as there was no train earlier.  Now the through coaches would have arrived at any time in 1895 at 6.50 (aft) to find waiting for it the train that arrived up to 35 minutes earlier.  The reason being that it had a through coach to Pwllheli as well. 

 

So the choice was between, if you wanted to go to Barmouth, catching a slightly earlier train and changing twice, carrying any luggage you had, or staying in the 'comfort' of a through coach and arriving later.  Also if you arrived early and got on the wrong train.......

 

Finally, just out of interest as I will model neither train, what would the formations of these trains been?  Would the express have been the latest coaches and the 10.00 o'clock older stock?

 

If you have been, thanks for looking.

 

You would need to refer to the carriage diagrams for 1895 which I do not have.  The earliest corridor trains on the GWR ran to Birkenhead from 1890 so don't know if the Chester service had these by 1895 but the marshalling diagram would show if corridor or not.  Eitherway the coaches would have been Dean clerestories so from a modelling perspective, apart from the corridor issue, would look similar.  Does Bradshaw say whether there was a dining service on either?

 

In 1912 the 9:10 and 9:50 to Birkenhead were both Corridor.  The Barmouth through coach was in the 9:50 train.  However, this was transferred at Birmingham to the 11:05 Birkenhead which also had the Pwllheli carriages in the formation.  All three had dining cars but the 9:10 and 11:05 had "70'" stock which would have been newer at the time so the 9.50 did have relatively older stock.  Barmouth through coach returned the next day on the 10:10.  The Barmouth through coach is not shown as corridor though the Pwllheli are.

 

(Interestingly the 9:50 also had a corridor through coach Paddington to Hereford)

Edited April 8, 2018 by Brassey

[ChrisN]

You would need to refer to the carriage diagrams for 1895 which I do not have.  The earliest corridor trains on the GWR ran to Birkenhead from 1890 so don't know if the Chester service had these by 1895 but the marshalling diagram would show if corridor or not.  Eitherway the coaches would have been Dean clerestories so from a modelling perspective, apart from the corridor issue, would look similar.  Does Bradshaw say whether there was a dining service on either?

 

In 1912 the 9:10 and 9:50 to Birkenhead were both Corridor.  The Barmouth through coach was in the 9:50 train.  However, this was transferred at Birmingham to the 11:05 Birkenhead which also had the Pwllheli carriages in the formation.  All three had dining cars but the 9:10 and 11:05 had "70'" stock which would have been newer at the time so the 9.50 did have relatively older stock.  Barmouth through coach returned the next day on the 10:10.  The Barmouth through coach is not shown as corridor though the Pwllheli are.

 

(Interestingly the 9:50 also had a corridor through coach Paddington to Hereford)

 

Brassy,

Thank you.  Where would I get the carriage diagrams from?

 

The 9:50 in Bradshaw is listed as the Birmingham and North Express but does not appear to  mention a dining service.  In 1895 the coach from Barmouth returned at 10:00am and appeared to be attached to the 12:23 from Chester which was also labelled The Birmingham and North Express, one of three, and had a through carriage from Liverpool.

[Brassey]

Brassy,

Thank you.  Where would I get the carriage diagrams from?

 

The 9:50 in Bradshaw is listed as the Birmingham and North Express but does not appear to  mention a dining service.  In 1895 the coach from Barmouth returned at 10:00am and appeared to be attached to the 12:23 from Chester which was also labelled The Birmingham and North Express, one of three, and had a through carriage from Liverpool.

 

Can't remember if they had dining cars in 1895 now!

 

I 'think' GWR carriage diagrams are at Kew though I don't know which years they might have in the archive.  Mine came via a member of the GW Study Group along with other stuff from Kew so I assume that is where he got them but it might have been from his personal collection.  These are even rarer than Working Timetables.  I only have GWR through carriage workings for 1912 because that is the year of my interest.

 

The LNWR Society has a lot of information including carriage diagrams and WTT's in their Study Centre which is also open to the public.  It does include stuff that ran on joint lines.  A search on their website will reveal what is in the archive.  If I have a moment, I'll have a look.

 

Edit: search show nothing prior to 1906

Edited April 8, 2018 by Brassey

[ChrisN]

Can't remember if they had dining cars in 1895 now!

 

I 'think' GWR carriage diagrams are at Kew though I don't know which years they might have in the archive.  Mine came via a member of the GW Study Group along with other stuff from Kew so I assume that is where he got them but it might have been from his personal collection.  These are even rarer than Working Timetables.  I only have GWR through carriage workings for 1912 because that is the year of my interest.

 

The LNWR Society has a lot of information including carriage diagrams and WTT's in their Study Centre which is also open to the public.  It does include stuff that ran on joint lines.  A search on their website will reveal what is in the archive.  If I have a moment, I'll have a look.

 

Edit: search show nothing prior to 1906

 

Thank you that is most helpful.  I need to go to Kew so that is one more thing on the list.

[Penrhos1920]

GWR coach diagrams are in York. You can find a few that will interest you on my website below. In 1895 few if any through coaches were corridor. I would suggest any GWR bogie brake composite built before 1895 will meet your requirements. Or a brake third and luggage composite if you want a pair. Somewhere on rmweb recently there was a similar discussion about what GWR coach matched a description from a Midland carriage programme. The coach was described in terms of number of compartments and number of seats. No exact match was found.

[ChrisN]

GWR coach diagrams are in York. You can find a few that will interest you on my website below. In 1895 few if any through coaches were corridor. I would suggest any GWR bogie brake composite built before 1895 will meet your requirements. Or a brake third and luggage composite if you want a pair. Somewhere on rmweb recently there was a similar discussion about what GWR coach matched a description from a Midland carriage programme. The coach was described in terms of number of compartments and number of seats. No exact match was found.

 

Penrhos,

Thank you.  I will not waste my time trying to find the diagrams at Kew.  I do look at your site fpr GWR coach information. it is a very valuable resource.  I do have a couple of bogie coaches that fit the bill.  I will also need through coaches from Manchester Exchange and Birkenhead which from previous discussion would also appear to be GWR coaches.  I was hoping to get some 6 wheel cletestories on those.  I will try and get as many types as possible just for the variety.  I just need to get the diagrams so that I can get them cut.