Having Some Serious Design Block and Need Help

[Seanem44]

I think your basic topology looks OK but others here are far more expert than me. However whether it's workable or not depends on the lengths of the various sidings, headshunts and the fiddle yard. You need to draw it to scale.

 

So is this right?: The baseboard will be 14ft by up to 3ft and the fiddle yard 2ft by 8-10in joined at right angles to the right hand end of the baseboard.

 

If the fiddle yard is only 2ft long it may have to steal some baseboard space.

 

Phil

 

Sorry...  the fiddle yard it 2 ft by 8-10 feet.  My mistake.

[Seanem44]

 

Heres a quick sketch of kind of what i am envisioning....

 

 

Whether this will work in my space constraints is a story only railcad or whatever I've been using for layout can tell.  I think I need to "flatten" it out a little bit.

 

Again, critiques welcome.

Edited September 22, 2017 by Seanem44

[Harlequin]

Sorry...  the fiddle yard it 2 ft by 8-10 feet.  My mistake.

 

Thank goodness for that! ;-) Should be plenty of space, then.

 

Phil

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

You've already spotted the big problem with the conventional small terminus - too much dead space at the throat end.  That's one reason Kingswear is so good, it's a prototypical example of a common model railway fudge - fill the dead corner with interesting stuff, including a turntable.  The early version of Borchester Town copies this arrangement.

 

As drawn, your plan is reminiscent of Lyme Regis or a fairly typical HR blt.

[Harlequin]

Sorry...  the fiddle yard it 2 ft by 8-10 feet.  My mistake.

 

Like this?

 

Phil

[Seanem44]

You've already spotted the big problem with the conventional small terminus - too much dead space at the throat end.  That's one reason Kingswear is so good, it's a prototypical example of a common model railway fudge - fill the dead corner with interesting stuff, including a turntable.  The early version of Borchester Town copies this arrangement.

 

As drawn, your plan is reminiscent of Lyme Regis or a fairly typical HR blt.

A turn table would definitely add operational interest.

 

How should I incorporate that?  Should I work the track leading to it off of the dock goods tracks?    I suppose adding an engine shed is in the relm now.

Like this?

Seanem44 1.png

 

Phil

Yes sir indeed!

[Harlequin]

A turn table would definitely add operational interest.

 

How should I incorporate that?  Should I work the track leading to it off of the dock goods tracks?    I suppose adding an engine shed is in the relm now.

Yes sir indeed!

 

Great! So the curve from the fiddle yard will pass close to the corner where the two baseboards meet and most of the potentially "dead space" is behind it - maybe something along these lines?:

 

I've probably made the main baseboard too thin at 2ft6in in this drawing. If it were wider there would be more room for scenery behind the station.

 

A little diagonal fillet might be useful between the two baseboards and the entry to the fiddle yard might be disguised by a diagonal bridge (like Kingswear)???

 

Phil

[Seanem44]

Great! So the curve from the fiddle yard will pass close to the corner where the two baseboards meet and most of the potentially "dead space" is behind it - maybe something along these lines?:

Seanem44 2.png

 

I've probably made the main baseboard too thin at 2ft6in in this drawing. If it were wider there would be more room for scenery behind the station.

 

A little diagonal fillet might be useful between the two baseboards and the entry to the fiddle yard might be disguised by a diagonal bridge (like Kingswear)???

 

Phil

Wow!  I really like what you have done here!   I can always add a triangular piece to that corner so the tracks don't pass too close.

 

This is actually really cool looking and I think if I do purchase a corvette or a Fletcher Class Destroyer (my favorite and I'm sure they docked in the UK) it will add even more visual interest.

 

I could probably even forgo the lock facilities and build out a town or some scenery in the top left, as the empty space isn't that bad.  Do the color codes on the turnouts indicate different size?

 

Thank you so much!

Edited September 22, 2017 by Seanem44

[Harlequin]

Do the color codes on the turnouts indicate different size?

 

 

Yes, it's just my personal convention: Purple is Peco Streamline large radius (~4ft) and browny/orange is Peco Streamline medium radius (~3ft). I sketched in a crossover for the dockside lines but I didn't work out proper pointwork for that.

 

Phil

[puck]

Is Weymouth Quay any good?

[The Stationmaster]

Is Weymouth Quay any good?

 

Rather basic railwaywise plus very limited loco choice - but nice if you like ships!

 

If you want big engines a slice of (Plymouth) Millbay docks station and lines would be a better bet or something based on them. 

[tractionman]

How about Falmouth Docks

 

https://goo.gl/images/ptESEp

 

Cheers,

 

Keith

[Harlequin]

Hi Seanem44,

 

As you know, I've pushed my design on a bit and this is where I've got to:

 

PDF version with a bit more info:

Seanem44 6.pdf

 

The scenery is very sketchy. I don't think the track spacings are right in the docks (probably too close to allow a travelling crane to run between them). And I've no idea how to lay out a military trans-shipment compound.

 

(All points are Peco Streamline.)

 

Phil

Edited September 26, 2017 by Harlequin

[Seanem44]

Hi Seanem44,

 

As you know, I've pushed my design on a bit and this is where I've got to:

Seanem44 6.png

 

PDF version with a bit more info:

Seanem44 6.pdf

 

The scenery is very sketchy. I don't think the track spacings are right in the docks (probably too close to allow a travelling crane to run between them). And I've no idea how to lay out a military trans-shipment compound.

 

(All points are Peco Streamline.)

 

Phil

Wow.  This is really awesome looking!  Yeah, if anyone else wants to add their input, that would be great!

[Satan's Goldfish]

Hi Seanem44,

 

As you know, I've pushed my design on a bit and this is where I've got to:

Seanem44 6.png

 

PDF version with a bit more info:

Seanem44 6.pdf

 

The scenery is very sketchy. I don't think the track spacings are right in the docks (probably too close to allow a travelling crane to run between them). And I've no idea how to lay out a military trans-shipment compound.

 

(All points are Peco Streamline.)

 

Phil

 

Add my 2p's worth; I'd have kept the crossover into the platform where the dotted purple line is and treated the bay as a local/parcels departure platform, shortened the bay a bit for a bigger station building with a few more facilities.

 

Access to loco facilities would be trailing off the departure line as it runs into fiddle yard before the double-slip rather than a double shunt into the bay platform.

 

And adding another loco release from the middle road to the goods shed siding (paralleling the platform to middle road release). This would shorten the siding length into the goods shed (less wagons blocking whatever is in there) and add the ability to run-round a goods train if a passenger train is in the station.

[Harlequin]

Add my 2p's worth; I'd have kept the crossover into the platform where the dotted purple line is and treated the bay as a local/parcels departure platform, shortened the bay a bit for a bigger station building with a few more facilities.

 

Access to loco facilities would be trailing off the departure line as it runs into fiddle yard before the double-slip rather than a double shunt into the bay platform.

 

And adding another loco release from the middle road to the goods shed siding (paralleling the platform to middle road release). This would shorten the siding length into the goods shed (less wagons blocking whatever is in there) and add the ability to run-round a goods train if a passenger train is in the station.

 

If the crossover is moved to the dashed position then traffic coming in on the arrival ("down") line can't directly access platform 1. That's why I moved it back.

 

The turntable access from the platform 1 line is similar to the Kingswear prototype (see the 1936 plan of Kingswear in post #8) but yes, maybe it should be rejigged.

 

A release crossover on the goods siding is probably a good idea.

 

This website has some very useful photos and info on Kingswear: http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/newton-abbot-to-kingswear-also-brixham-branch.html

 

It shows that the travelling cranes were smaller than I had thought and ran on what appear to be standard gauge rails so I'll adjust the plan

[Seanem44]

Looking forward to see what you drum up.  This has been very helpful and enlightening.

[The Johnster]

Just an overview note on cranes.  The Airfix/Dapol/Kitmaster plastic construction kit crane that sees service on many a layout is in fact a bit of an oddity, a dockyard crane actually designed for use in a ship repair yard to be capable of handling items of machinery to be hoisted on board or off for work to be done on them.  It is not really a dockside cargo handling crane for loading or unloading cargoes into or out of the holds of large ships; it is nowhere near even the ball park of being big enough, or of having a long enough reach on the jib.  A proper dockside crane is about 3 times the size of this, and quite a hard thing to fit in on a model railway if you build it to scale!   Ocean going cargo ships, even steam age ones, are huge, and their handling facilities must match!

 

The cranes at Kingswear, IIRC, are rail mounted mobile cranes, and I made something vaguely like them many years ago for a canalside setting; basic and crude modelling with the body and jib of an Airfix dockyard construction kit crane mounted on an old tender chassis and sheathed in corrugated iron to hide it's ancestry.  It was surprisingly effective, and was claimed to be an accurate model of the prototype that had 'insprired' it at an exhibition by a bloke who claimed his father driven the original (made a change from Flying Scotsman).  Given the vagueness of the photos I'd worked from, this was encouraging...

 

The other model railway standard from the Airfix/Dapol/Kitmaster stable is of course the Smith Rodley 'breakdown' crane.  Again, this isn't really a breakdown crane, or a main line railway crane at all, though similar ones were built for railway use by the Per Way department at their PAD pre-assembled rail depots.  The kit is for an industrial use crane capable of being moved around a works or factory site to where it is required, but not under it's own power.  The PAD cranes were self propelled, but on an 8 wheeled chassis rather than the kit's bogies, and could be hauled dead to a tracklaying site and then move around that under their own power during an occupation.  It is fairly easy to model one of these by making up the kit as per the instructions but not fitting the bogies; instead mount the crane on an 8 wheel chassis from any LNER pacific tender picked up secondhand; it fits almost as if it's designed to!

[Harlequin]

Just an overview note on cranes.  The Airfix/Dapol/Kitmaster plastic construction kit crane that sees service on many a layout is in fact a bit of an oddity, a dockyard crane actually designed for use in a ship repair yard to be capable of handling items of machinery to be hoisted on board or off for work to be done on them.  It is not really a dockside cargo handling crane for loading or unloading cargoes into or out of the holds of large ships; it is nowhere near even the ball park of being big enough, or of having a long enough reach on the jib.  A proper dockside crane is about 3 times the size of this, and quite a hard thing to fit in on a model railway if you build it to scale!   Ocean going cargo ships, even steam age ones, are huge, and their handling facilities must match!

 

The cranes at Kingswear, IIRC, are rail mounted mobile cranes, and I made something vaguely like them many years ago for a canalside setting; basic and crude modelling with the body and jib of an Airfix dockyard construction kit crane mounted on an old tender chassis and sheathed in corrugated iron to hide it's ancestry.  It was surprisingly effective, and was claimed to be an accurate model of the prototype that had 'insprired' it at an exhibition by a bloke who claimed his father driven the original (made a change from Flying Scotsman).  Given the vagueness of the photos I'd worked from, this was encouraging...

 

The other model railway standard from the Airfix/Dapol/Kitmaster stable is of course the Smith Rodley 'breakdown' crane.  Again, this isn't really a breakdown crane, or a main line railway crane at all, though similar ones were built for railway use by the Per Way department at their PAD pre-assembled rail depots.  The kit is for an industrial use crane capable of being moved around a works or factory site to where it is required, but not under it's own power.  The PAD cranes were self propelled, but on an 8 wheeled chassis rather than the kit's bogies, and could be hauled dead to a tracklaying site and then move around that under their own power during an occupation.  It is fairly easy to model one of these by making up the kit as per the instructions but not fitting the bogies; instead mount the crane on an 8 wheel chassis from any LNER pacific tender picked up secondhand; it fits almost as if it's designed to!

 

Thanks, that explains quite a lot and is very useful info.

 

On the 1936 map (post 8) it appears that there's a crossing from one of the dockyard sidings onto the crane tracks.

 

On the Cornwall Railway Society website (link above) there are few photos showing cranes at Kingswear but this is probably the best:

 

And here's sneak preview of my stylised rendition of it for the track plan:

 

BTW: One of my distant relatives really did drive the Flying Scotsman (I believe): Albert Pibworth - "Old Pib"! 

Edited September 29, 2017 by Harlequin

[Harlequin]

Here's the latest version of my idea:

 

To see it best click the image above to get the full size version or open the PDF below in Acrobat Reader, where you can zoom in to any depth and turn layers on and off.

 

 

 

 

[Seanem44]

Here's the latest version of my idea:

Seanem44 8.png

 

To see it best click the image above to get the full size version or open the PDF below in Acrobat Reader, where you can zoom in to any depth and turn layers on and off.

 

Seanem44 8.pdf

I'm liking it a lot!  What program do you use?

[Harlequin]

I'm liking it a lot!  What program do you use?

 

I use Xara "Designer Pro" but Xara "Photo and Graphic Designer" has all the useful drawing functions as far as I remember. You can get a free trial from www.xara.com.

 

Full Disclosure: I work for Xara.

 

There's a lot more that could be added to the drawing; little details like rowing boats, discarded rusty equipment, walkways, etc., and of course lots Military stuff but should I do that? I'm sure you'd rather take the ideas and add your own character to the design.

[ISW]

I use Xara "Designer Pro" but Xara "Photo and Graphic Designer" has all the useful drawing functions as far as I remember. You can get a free trial from www.xara.com.

 

Full Disclosure: I work for Xara.

 

 

Phil,

 

Well, that explains why your knowledge of Xara is better than mine. Hopefully, it's available for 'picking' now and then.

 

Ian

[Seanem44]

Two things I will likely do when I finally build.  I will likely have the two lines terminate in the military yard instead of going to the fiddle yard.  That way I can fully enclose and fence it in and save a little on point work.  I will also likely move the Goods Shed a smidge to the right and possibly eliminate the crossover leading to it.  Main reason for the move is so that the station won't be obscure by the goods shed.  Then again, I might leave it as is.  Also, I may eliminate the turn table.  It seems like it may be too crowded now and I would love to use that area for some full size buildings.  Don't know for sure.  Still love this design.  You have given me the perfect framework for exactly what I had envisioned!

Edited October 5, 2017 by Seanem44