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Class A4 4-6-2 in O Gauge from Hatton's


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On 09/05/2020 at 08:25, delticfan said:

Sad is a bit emotional, they are a doddle to fix but you will need a drill bit and handrail bits, Eileen’s Emporium for those. Next interesting bit for me is adding my numbers, I’m using Fox numbers which don’t look bad only a little carrier film noticeable. I trial glossed a Heljan wagon panel last night with Mr Hobby Gloss varnish using their self levelling thinners so its super smooth for the decals, will trial those today then the tricky bit varnish to match the rest of the loco, it’s almost Matt but just not quite, satin maybe to shiny hence the wagon trial.

 

 

I look forward to your results :) I've ordered a Un-numbered LNER Apple Green A3 which I am using Fox Decals for so it would be nice to see how it looks once you've finished the work. 

 

Thanks 

Tom

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Following on from earlier posts re A4 handrails. Now I have received mine and did not know about the missing handrails, I am reeling from and annoyed about the absence of cabside vertical handrails. I emailed twice with no response but managed to speak to Dave Mylett on telephone at the second attempt. He didn’t seem to be concerned by the problem. There are NO spares available to match those on the tender, he was NOT prepared to cover the cost of my procuring handrail knobs in fact his only offer was to issue a refund for the locomotive. He said he was not duly concerned as “it did not affect the running of the loco”. As a retired quality assurance engineer this attitude to customer relations is deplorable.  I have since ordered hand rail knobs from a competitor and if suitable, I will use them. if not, then I shall have to review my options as I have already received name and number plates for my chosen completed model. It’s a poor show as I have been a customer for many years and might have been for a long time yet.  However, customer care does not appear to be at the forefront of Hatton’s policy. Other model suppliers are available.

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On 15/05/2020 at 19:19, Norton Wood said:

 

 

I look forward to your results :) I've ordered a Un-numbered LNER Apple Green A3 which I am using Fox Decals for so it would be nice to see how it looks once you've finished the work. 

 

Thanks 

Tom

My wagon test went well I used the Matt varnish after leaving the decals to dry for a day. I built up the Matt slowly so the gloss finish changes to Matt not instantly so I managed to match it to the surrounding paint finish. Getting a smooth finish is down to choice of thinners and mix ratios if you want all the tedious details I can let you know what I’ve done.

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26 minutes ago, Cuddle Headrigg said:

Following on from earlier posts re A4 handrails. Now I have received mine and did not know about the missing handrails, I am reeling from and annoyed about the absence of cabside vertical handrails. I emailed twice with no response but managed to speak to Dave Mylett on telephone at the second attempt. He didn’t seem to be concerned by the problem. There are NO spares available to match those on the tender, he was NOT prepared to cover the cost of my procuring handrail knobs in fact his only offer was to issue a refund for the locomotive. He said he was not duly concerned as “it did not affect the running of the loco”. As a retired quality assurance engineer this attitude to customer relations is deplorable.  I have since ordered hand rail knobs from a competitor and if suitable, I will use them. if not, then I shall have to review my options as I have already received name and number plates for my chosen completed model. It’s a poor show as I have been a customer for many years and might have been for a long time yet.  However, customer care does not appear to be at the forefront of Hatton’s policy. Other model suppliers are available.

 

I'm also slightly annoyed at the fact I Ordered a streamlined corridor tender, unnumbered version with a single chimney under the impression that a Double chimney would come supplied with the model as mentioned on a previous page within this thread...

 

This was not included and after ringing Hatton's I got told that because the removal of the chimney damages the body (fair point) however why wasn't this mentioned at all until the model arrived on my doorstep. They also don't keep spare chimneys in stock.

 

I'm also slightly disappointed that the Lubricator linkage isn't included on the Fireman's side of the loco. 

I'm going to mention reverser linkage as well as this is present on the A3s but not the A4.

 

I've also purchased hand rail knobs from another competitor as well as a Double chimney from a second  competitor which are now being added by a close friend while its getting named and Numbered and we may have something in mind for the reverser linkage.

 

I'm slightly annoyed and i'm now about £15 down. 

 

However don't get me wrong I'm happy I picked one up and as mentioned you have no chance of getting  another O gauge A4 for anywhere near the same price tag, Once my model has been completed I'll post some shots on this thread :)

 

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17 minutes ago, Cuddle Headrigg said:

Other model suppliers are available.

 

Really? For an O gauge A4? Do tell.

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Posted (edited)

Oh dear mr Parker, I was referring to the customer relations. You’ll have to allow for me being “old school” when the customer was always regarded as right. My message to manufacturers is, “If you can’t stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

I have built an A3 for less than £600 though. I’d show you a picture if I could work out how to attach it.  I’ve also scratchbuilt several other finescale tender locos  for little more than cost of wheels, motor & gearbox.

I only bought the A4 because it’s another top link loco and the boiler would be a bitch to create. I thought it would be a stable mate. I now wish I hadn’t bothered and built a Peppercorn A1 instead. I’m new to this forum stuff as I spend 50-60 hours a week building. There’s some good stuff on forum’s if you ignore the opinionated and focus on facts and experience.

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10 hours ago, Cuddle Headrigg said:

Oh dear mr Parker, I was referring to the customer relations. You’ll have to allow for me being “old school” when the customer was always regarded as right. My message to manufacturers is, “If you can’t stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

I have built an A3 for less than £600 though. I’d show you a picture if I could work out how to attach it.  I’ve also scratchbuilt several other finescale tender locos  for little more than cost of wheels, motor & gearbox.

I only bought the A4 because it’s another top link loco and the boiler would be a bitch to create. I thought it would be a stable mate. I now wish I hadn’t bothered and built a Peppercorn A1 instead. I’m new to this forum stuff as I spend 50-60 hours a week building. There’s some good stuff on forum’s if you ignore the opinionated and focus on facts and experience.

If you've built kits surely you can add a handrail?

 

My message to you is "If you can't add a handrail, don't model O gauge"

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I don't think he said he couldn't fit a handrail just that he's not happy with Hattons lack of customer service. 

Tell me why Hattons could not have included 4 hand rail knobs with an apology.

Norman 

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2 minutes ago, norman said:

I don't think he said he couldn't fit a handrail just that he's not happy with Hattons lack of customer service. 

Tell me why Hattons could not have included 4 hand rail knobs with an apology.

Norman 

All Hattons have to do is offer a refund, no need to supply items that weren't part of the finished model or offer an apology.  That isn't lack of customer service, not offering a refund would be lack of service

 

He says he has built loco kits, chances are he'll have spare knobs lying around.  I even have 7mm handrail knobs and I don't, and haven't, modelled 7mm scale

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Well that's the point, they should be part of the finished model, why not?

In my view Hattons could have come out of this smelling of roses, just a little bit extra, supply the knobs, just a few pence and result,  good customer service.

A refund is a legal requirement with distance selling and should not be considered as a service. 

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3 minutes ago, norman said:

Well that's the point, they should be part of the finished model, why not?

In my view Hattons could have come out of this smelling of roses, just a little bit extra, supply the knobs, just a few pence and result,  good customer service.

A refund is a legal requirement with distance selling and should not be considered as a service. 

If they were part every model of the batch, but missing on his then yes Hatton's should supply replacements, but they were missed off on the design, therefore Hatton's need to do nothing.  

 

Come to think of it, if there is nothing wrong with the loco, it works, decoration is fine, nothing is missing from the signed off design, then Hatton's don't even have to offer a refund.  The fact they are is very good service.

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12 hours ago, Cuddle Headrigg said:

Following on from earlier posts re A4 handrails. Now I have received mine and did not know about the missing handrails, I am reeling from and annoyed about the absence of cabside vertical handrails. I emailed twice with no response but managed to speak to Dave Mylett on telephone at the second attempt. He didn’t seem to be concerned by the problem. There are NO spares available to match those on the tender, he was NOT prepared to cover the cost of my procuring handrail knobs in fact his only offer was to issue a refund for the locomotive. He said he was not duly concerned as “it did not affect the running of the loco”. As a retired quality assurance engineer this attitude to customer relations is deplorable.  I have since ordered hand rail knobs from a competitor and if suitable, I will use them. if not, then I shall have to review my options as I have already received name and number plates for my chosen completed model. It’s a poor show as I have been a customer for many years and might have been for a long time yet.  However, customer care does not appear to be at the forefront of Hatton’s policy. Other model suppliers are available.

I presume that you were employed  by some sort of Quango or similar set up that had a bottomless pit as far as money was concerned. Most of us in your field worked for companies where "design for manufacture" was one buzzword and there was also a reject level in place that would set an acceptable standard for the item at the desired price. I find it a poor show by you to come on to this forum with your ranting. I find your ignorance of design, sales and QC appalling. More so when you claim to be qualified to comment on such topics. Hattons, through Dave have been very open about this model at all stages. They have tried to explain why certain decisions have been taken. For the price quoted it seems to me to be rather good value. As others have said a good starting point if you want to improve on a "layout model". I am not at all surprised at the reaction from Hattons. If you shouted at them like you are shouting on here then you deserve all you get. 

Just a final point, people who do research get paid far more than I ever did. QC is generally regarded as a necessary nuisance. To produce a loco of this type for this price the cash allowed for either activity must be fairly limited. You get what you pay for and in this instance I feel that you are not prepared to go along with that. They were prepared to offer you a refund. That sounds pretty fair customer relations to me and it is very good of them to point out your consumer rights. They do not have any obligation to offer you a better service than any other customer. Even though you threaten to take your business elsewhere.

Bernard

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12 hours ago, Cuddle Headrigg said:

There’s some good stuff on forum’s if you ignore the opinionated

 

Blackadder:
Baldrick, have you no idea what "irony" is?

Baldrick:
Yes, it's like "goldy" and "bronzy" only it's made out of iron.

 

Please refer to my response in the 'wrong' topic... 

 

 

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14 hours ago, Cuddle Headrigg said:

I’m new to this forum stuff as I spend 50-60 hours a week building. There’s some good stuff on forum’s if you ignore the opinionated and focus on facts and experience.

 

That's true - but I notice you have only posted in this topic which suggests you registered just to have a rant.

 

14 hours ago, Cuddle Headrigg said:

Oh dear mr Parker, I was referring to the customer relations. You’ll have to allow for me being “old school” when the customer was always regarded as right.

 

On that basis, no model would ever get into the shops because there will always be a customer who will find a fault with it, and according to your rules, that fault would need to be corrected even if it meant a re-tool.

 

The handrail was missed off. Hattons have held their hands up to it. No-one wanted to miss it off, it was a mistake. You will struggle to find a single model out there that doesn't include a mistake, some bigger than others. Those who know more than me about A4's will tell you that the shape of the front of some older models is all wrong, but people still happily bought them. QC checks wouldn't have identified the problem as it wasn't on the design, in the same way as the missing handrail isn't.

 

Most people will buy this loco and be perfectly happy with it. There's a lot of model for your money here.

Some will chose to add the missing handrail - as modellers have been doing to RTR models for over half a century. Ideal? No, but that's life. It's easier and cheaper than building a Finney kit, the only alternative currently available as far as I know (someone feel free to correct me).

Some will find this missing handrail so terrible they will ask for their money back. I suspect that this isn't a requirement of the sale of goods act, but deciding if the A4 isn't of merchantable quality would be a court case and cost more than Loveless A4. Hattons have offered your money back which seems fair enough.

 

The other problem is that Chinese manufacture doesn't normally involve a big bag of spare parts. If you want spares, you order them at the time, or do what other manufacturers do and cannibalise returned models. That's the price we pay for high-quality models at a reasonable price. Even if you were sent handrail knobs, should fitting go wrong (slipped drill for example damaging the paint) who's fault is that? I have to accept that when I poke models with knives and drills, I void any warranty, but it might be harder to argue this if the manufacturer supplies the parts to be used suggesting drilling holes. I appreciate that you are confident you can fit the missing part, but there are people who can't add coal to a tender, we don't all have the same skill level.

 

Like every other RTR model, the A4 is what it is. As customers, we are free to decide to buy or not to buy.

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Posted (edited)

Thank you Norman. As you say, they could have come out of this positively. Mr Lamb; a complaint is not a rant and I was not rude to Mr Mylett. You know nothing about what was said as you weren’t present to hear the conversation. So I suggest you keep your opinions for those who like to hear your voice other than yourself. You’re ranting more than anybody.  My standards are obviously higher than yours. Model returned for refund. I’ve had enough of this site already. Goodbye.

Edited by Cuddle Headrigg
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1 minute ago, Hal Nail said:

You'd go a long way in politics these days with a slogan that good.

 

I'm incompatible, I can't fake sympathy or concern (when I show it it's genuine) and I've never said "That's a really good question".

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On 05/05/2020 at 14:26, JeffP said:

Painting is really dead easy. 

Place on paper and spray the desired colour, two light coats is better than one heavy one.

Allow to dry, about an hour if you use car spray.

Turn the plates over on a clean sheet of paper and rub them while applying light pressure.

Keep checking and blow away any debris.

The still soft paint will be removed and leave the metal underneath shiny.

If you leave it too long, the same effect can be had by using the lightest grade of wet-or-dry paper.

Trust me, it works

Agreed. Glue a strip of 1500 grade paper to a lolly stick ensuring that there are no creases. Allow paint to fully harden overnight and then gently sand off the surplus. The stick ensures the paper stays dead flat and only removes the necessary paint. I have just done a set from Severnmill for St Frusquin and have a set to do for my ancient Wild Swan.

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A serious question. Do they actually run? Has anyone had the chance to let them loose on a roundy roundy or garden railway with a full ten coaches? If so, what kind of radius curve? (I am expecting an answer in excess of six feet).

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47 minutes ago, doilum said:

A serious question. Do they actually run? Has anyone had the chance to let them loose on a roundy roundy or garden railway with a full ten coaches? If so, what kind of radius curve? (I am expecting an answer in excess of six feet).

 

Hi Doilum,

We had the pleasure of running a pair of A3's on Pete Waterman's 'Leamington Spa' layout with a couple of rakes of his heavy kitbuilt coaches last year. The layout incorporates a few steep gradients too. With the current situation we haven't managed to arrange anything similar with the A4, but both locomotives share basically the same chassis so will give a similar performance. We're looking forward to seeing footage of the A4s out and about on people's layouts.

Whilst both the A3 and A4 will operate on Peco's setrack points and second radius curves, we really recommend a wider radius if possible, especially if running at speed.

The A4 page on our website has lots of detailed info on the model specifications which you can view following the link below:

Click here for Hatton's O Gauge A4 - Specifications and details.

Cheers

Dave
 

 

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6 minutes ago, Hattons Dave said:

 

Hi Doilum,

We had the pleasure of running a pair of A3's on Pete Waterman's 'Leamington Spa' layout with a couple of rakes of his heavy kitbuilt coaches last year. The layout incorporates a few steep gradients too. With the current situation we haven't managed to arrange anything similar with the A4, but both locomotives share basically the same chassis so will give a similar performance. We're looking forward to seeing footage of the A4s out and about on people's layouts.

Whilst both the A3 and A4 will operate on Peco's setrack points and second radius curves, we really recommend a wider radius if possible, especially if running at speed.

The A4 page on our website has lots of detailed info on the model specifications which you can view following the link below:

Click here for Hatton's O Gauge A4 - Specifications and details.

Cheers

Dave
 

 

Thanks. I have just replied on the A3 thread. What always interests me is the relationship between radiuses and the number of coaches that can be pulled round them. I have a display model of an A4. Whilst it could pull all forty something of my wagons round the 5'6'' curves it struggled to pull four coaches. Eventually I gave up and repurposed the motor. The A3 looked impressive.

On 05/05/2020 at 14:26, JeffP said:

Painting is really dead easy. 

Place on paper and spray the desired colour, two light coats is better than one heavy one.

Allow to dry, about an hour if you use car spray.

Turn the plates over on a clean sheet of paper and rub them while applying light pressure.

Keep checking and blow away any debris.

The still soft paint will be removed and leave the metal underneath shiny.

If you leave it too long, the same effect can be had by using the lightest grade of wet-or-dry paper.

Trust me, it works

Agreed. Glue a strip of 1500 grade paper to a lolly stick ensuring that there are no creases. Allow paint to fully harden overnight and then gently sand off the surplus. The stick ensures the paper stays dead flat and only removes the necessary paint. I have just done a set from Severnmill for St Frusquin and have a set to do for my ancient Wild Swan.

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