Guards vans on inter-regional freight trains (British Railways days)

[Fat Controller]

Was once enlightened by a former BR manager with regards to the BR (WR) South Wales freight reorganisation of the late 1960s, brought about by the then inefficient railway operations in the area.

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The management team involved in the reorganisation engaged with the local union representatives almost from the 'off' - all except those at Margam allegedly took up the offer.

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The reorganisation brought about 'Blocplan' referred to elsewhere by the 'Stationmaster'.

 

In order to 'rubber stamp' the BR management proposals a final meeting was organised at the Temple of Peace in central Cardiff.

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The proposals were put to the various union reps and were approved with amazing haste (the meeting lasting but 90mins)...............except by the Margam rep's.

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The other reps present 'advised' the Margam contingent that they had been given the opportunity to take part in the planning of the reorganisation, but had chosen not to, so their (Margam's) views were now of no real consequence.

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This brought on an apparent "warm smugness" within the BR managers !

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Some of the improvements of the reorganisation included 

(i) 95% of coal trains from Monmouthshire Valleys loading points to destinations went without remarshalling, up from 17%

(ii) 83 % of coal trains from Cardiff Valleys loading points to destinations went without remarshalling, up from 2%

(iii) 91% of coal trains from Tondu / West Wales Valleys loading points to destinations went without remarshalling, up from 30%

 

The reorganisation saved 5x 350hp shunters (Cl08), 9x 650hp (Cl.14) and 18 mainline locos.

 

So, it appears, there 'may' have been 'staffing issues' in the Margam area ?

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Brian R

I wonder if Margam had been treated as a sort of 'Gulag', where members of the 'Awkward Squad' were sent? There were places on BR which were like this- Bricklayer's Arms being one, I was told by someone who tried to manage it- where people were sent if there'd been a record of complaints against them, or if there were (unproven) suspicions of dishonesty.

[br2975]

I wonder if Margam had been treated as a sort of 'Gulag', where members of the 'Awkward Squad' were sent? There were places on BR which were like this- Bricklayer's Arms being one, I was told by someone who tried to manage it- where people were sent if there'd been a record of complaints against them, or if there were (unproven) suspicions of dishonesty.

 

In 'the job' such places were referred to as 'punishment stations'

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When I arrived at my first station, Ely (Cardiff) I was asked by all and sundry "what did you do wrong ?" as it was generally accepted that after Ely there was no where left (or worse) in South Wales to send you !

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No doubt other industries, such as BR, had such locations.

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Brian R

Edited January 11, 2018 by br2975

[The Stationmaster]

I wonder if Margam had been treated as a sort of 'Gulag', where members of the 'Awkward Squad' were sent? There were places on BR which were like this- Bricklayer's Arms being one, I was told by someone who tried to manage it- where people were sent if there'd been a record of complaints against them, or if there were (unproven) suspicions of dishonesty.

 

Not really Brian.  The big problem at Margam - if indeed it was a problem - was that it was an amalgam of various places which had closed or been rundown when the hump yard was opened and there were degrees of 'separateness' which still remained in later years. I never noticed it particularly among the yard staff - but they were all still rather separate because of the sheer length of the site and the way working knowledge needed to be kept and tasks were divided.  However the Drivers were a totally different story and even as late as 1973 the links were mainly organised according to the various depots the men had come from when they were closed down to concentrate them onto the new diesel depot although obviously some had come in without ever being involved at the previous depots.

 

Radyr was very different because although footplate staff had come from a variety of depots they had been linked on the usual basis of seniority so their depot of origin was largely irrelevant and the same applied at Ebbw Jcn.

 

Punishment locations were not, in my experience on the Western, very common but 'punishment jobs' were - the main one being carriage cleaning where folk reduced in grade very often ended up (although the females of that species at Canton had normally been recruited directly and were all the more frightening as a result).  Odd thing actually in that female carriage cleaners seemed to have a tendency to being somewhat on the frightening side - at another depot I had to very carefully warn one of my ladies that contrary to her usual behaviour when first meeting members of management it was not the done thing to grab the General Manager between the legs and squeeze what resided there; fortunately she heeded my advice.

Edited January 11, 2018 by The Stationmaster

[The Johnster]

If there were, I was unaware of them Brian, mind my time was a few years later.  I think the basic problem at Margam was that it was a modern yard, and had neither the facilities nor the culture, developed over time, to deal with brake vans.  This apparently anomalous situation was probably down to something as simple as the shunters' and C & W cabins, which were centrally heated.  There was therefore no stockpile of coal for guards to raid for van stoves.

 

I went down there one particularly cold night with a single manned loco, which I had to 'second man' to the shed, only a few yards away for crows but some considerable walking distance owing to being separated from the yard by a drainage channel.  I also had to second man him back off following his statutory break.  Before leaving the yard, we shunted my van, warm, well stocked with coal, clean, and fully equipped, on to the outgoing train and I banked the stove.

 

When we returned, it was just in time to see my van disappearing downline in the direction of darkest Dyfed, smoke issuing cheerfully from the stove pipe.  The van they'd replaced it with was completely unprepped, filthy, no coal, no lamp oil, and, although it had lamps, they had no burners in them.  The road was had already been given, and obviously they intended any delay to be down to me.  I complained to the yard foreman, but was simply told to f off or he'd report me, saying that the van was as I'd brought it in, an outright lie.  So, having lodged my complaint, I simply uncoupled the unfitted portion of our class 7 train, did a brake test, put a tail lamp on the new rear vehicle, and gave the driver right away.

 

Not surprised to be called into the Train Crew Manager's office the following day.  I explained my side of the story, and told him he was welcome to interview my driver for corroboration as far as I was concerned, and that if there was any action against me, I would be involving the union LDC rep; I was fairly certain that that would be all I heard of the matter.  It was.

 

That's the sort of place Margam was.  I always put the attitude down to the men having been transferred from Dyffryn or other yards where they had been quite happy; there was a definite resentment and your point may have more than some validity!

[class8mikado]

Looking at some old film of scottish fish trains i noticed one which seemed to have a stove R or similaras a brake. Comment was that at the higher speeds a standard brake van was untenable, even with a van or two hung behind to steady it....

[russ p]

When I first started on the railway a few of the old hand guards used to go on about a concrete bodied van. I have never seen anything about this or these.

Did such a thing actually exist? 

[deltic17]

9 minutes ago, russ p said:

When I first started on the railway a few of the old hand guards used to go on about a concrete bodied van. I have never seen anything about this or these.

Did such a thing actually exist? 

They weren't referring to the concrete weights on each end of a 20T Brake Van were they?

[Simon Lee]

32 minutes ago, russ p said:

When I first started on the railway a few of the old hand guards used to go on about a concrete bodied van. I have never seen anything about this or these.

Did such a thing actually exist? 

 

Yes, it was not a popular piece of kit

 

 

 

[russ p]

That must be the offending item , looking at the age of it I do wonder if some of them had passed on the stories about them as the article says there were two. Any ideas when they were withdrawn.  I had previously thought if they existed they would have been wartime but obviously not 

[jim.snowdon]

They are a product of Mr Bulleid's imagination. Technically sound, but reportedly cold and damp, and badly sold to the users, who got themselves unnecessarily wound up about what might happen in accidents, etc. He was good at coming up with novel ideas, but not good at either selling them or appreciating the not so good points about them.

 

Jim

[br2975]

An old hand once told me; at Radyr during the early 70s, there was a  Guard who used to swap for the brake van prep job.

Johnny Wilkins , better known as " Johnny Chopsticks"

He would disappear into the nearby  woods and cut firewood for the vans and would clean them thoroughly.

Apparently "Johnny Chopsticks" would spend hours sorting the lamps out replacing wicks and burners, topping paraffin and cleaning lenses.

His colleagues considered him an eccentric.

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During the 70s it was still commonplace for Radyr to mark its' brake vans in an effort to retain them.

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Edited May 4, 2020 by br2975

[The Johnster]

On 04/05/2020 at 13:06, class8mikado said:

Looking at some old film of scottish fish trains i noticed one which seemed to have a stove R or similaras a brake. Comment was that at the higher speeds a standard brake van was untenable, even with a van or two hung behind to steady it....

The permitted speed for 16' wheebase brake vans was 60mph, and IIRC the Southern's Queen Mary and BY, Stove R, and Thompson BZ vans were rated for 75mph.  Some of what is said to have been done on fish trains, particularly on the ECML but on the West Coast as well, seems to have interpreted this a bit liberally; Bill Hoole reckoned to be able to run 800ton trains to passenger timings with A4s, but Bill Hoole was a speed merchant and loco thrasher (I knew someone who fired to him on the Festiniog, as it was spelt then, and who commented that if he was like that on 'Prince' he was glad not to have worked with him on the standard gauge.  Festiniog locos had hills to pull trains up and did not have an easy life, but I'd never seen a loco as abused as Prince, the oldest working loco in the country, was by Bill Hoole.  Alan Garraway, an amateur, was a much better driver of locomotives).  

 

For a van to be considered untenable by somebody in enough authority to specify Stove R to replace it the situation must have been genuinely dangerous; my experience was that nobody gave a flying f*ck about the guard's safety or comfort in brake vans.

 

You don't know what the old film was, do you?  I'd be interested in watching it!

[Gibbo675]

On 04/05/2020 at 13:42, russ p said:

When I first started on the railway a few of the old hand guards used to go on about a concrete bodied van. I have never seen anything about this or these.

Did such a thing actually exist? 

Hi Russ,

 

Concrete was a wonder material in the 1920's and 30's to such an extent that racing yachts were made from a steel mesh frame with concrete moulded around it. The construction technique forms a matrix structure in a similar way that glass fibres and resins form a matrix structure.

It is my guess that racing yachts were better lined and insulated than the bare concrete of the North Eastern Railway brake vans.

 

Gibbo.

[jim.snowdon]

15 hours ago, Gibbo675 said:

Hi Russ,

 

Concrete was a wonder material in the 1920's and 30's to such an extent that racing yachts were made from a steel mesh frame with concrete moulded around it. The construction technique forms a matrix structure in a similar way that glass fibres and resins form a matrix structure.

It is my guess that racing yachts were better lined and insulated than the bare concrete of the North Eastern Railway brake vans.

 

Gibbo.

And/or crewed by hardier souls for whom racing came before creature comforts.

 

Lack of insulation does seem to have been a problem with the concrete brake vans, given that they were reported as being damp. Whether they were any less draughty might be a moot point.

 

Jim 

[figworthy]

On 05/05/2020 at 19:10, Gibbo675 said:

Hi Russ,

 

It is my guess that racing yachts were better lined and insulated than the bare concrete of the North Eastern Railway brake vans.

 

Gibbo.

 

Serious racing yachts aren't lined or insulated (or even painted internally), it all adds weight, and as such slows the boat down.

 

Adrian

[class8mikado]

For the Johnster,

no sound and a bit speeded up, but some interesting consists, the fish train with a stove R after three minutes, Brake van not always the last vehicle, sometimes 2 involved.

( White Fish vans particularly rare !) watch to the end for the royal train !

[Gibbo675]

16 minutes ago, class8mikado said:

For the Johnster,

no sound and a bit speeded up, but some interesting consists, the fish train with a stove R after three minutes, Brake van not always the last vehicle, sometimes 2 involved.

( White Fish vans particularly rare !) watch to the end for the royal train !

Hi Class 8,

 

The V2's tender gets a serious rock-on at 9:32.

 

Gibbo.

[Michael Crofts]

Since this thread has been revived I'll add my little bit because there is something I've forgotten and would like to be reminded of.

My first job after school in 1969 was guard at Cambridge, a good place to be because of the variety of routes and traffic. Most of my memories of 'vans are of summer days pottering about the countryside on pick-up and trip workings, coloured by the fact that I did the job for two summers but only one winter. As the second winter approached I single-mindedly set out to find something else to do. Looking back on it there were lots of good bits but winter nights at Whitemoor when the wind was in the north or east were no fun at all.

Anyway, the thing I can't remember and would like to know about is how the paperwork for the up trains out of Whitemoor was prepared. My memory is that after the rest period I would walk along the train calling the loco back to bring the wagons together for coupling. I was never shown how to use a coupling pole, I had to just watch other people and try to work out the right swing for myself - and I always struggled with the vacuum hose couplings on the fitted stock, hoping that neither the loco nor the hump controller would move anything when I wasn't expecting it. After coupling the whole train up I would send it forward until it was clear of the points leading to the Brake hump, then go to the Brake which was next off the hump, and release the brake to let it run down on to the back of the train, and couple it. There was then a frantic search for coal. I don't remember preparing the lamps so they must have been trimmed & filled for me but I definitely remember always having to collect my own coal. And I have absolutely no memory of handing the driver any form of paperwork, neither do I remember noting the wagon numbers, weights and brake force of any coupled fitted stock myself. Was all that done by the hump controller when he assembled the train?

 

As others have said, you could get the stoves red hot if you wanted to.

 

And the way to stop a train was to turn a tail lamp round and then set the Bardic to red and wave it at a 'box. I had to do that one night  somewhere east of Royston when a chain came off the top of an empty bolster wagon and flailed along the cess, kicking up sparks and doing goodness knows how much damage. Fortunately the next 'box wasn't long coming, a quick wave of the Bardic got the next signal back to red, and the driver wasn't asleep. I needed help to get the chain back on board, it was so heavy.

Edited May 24, 2020 by Michael Crofts
clarification I hope