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Livery changes and frequency of repainting


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I have read all of the coach books I can find, especially Harris and Russell, but am struggling to find an answer to a reasonably simple question I have.

 

I am in the process of building rakes of coaches to represent the Britannia Halt end of the Kingwear line in 1933/34. I have always enjoyed the variety of stock in a GWR rake and am trying to capture the feel of a top line express in this era.

 

By now, the mainline coach livery incorporated double lining below the windows and the crest. 

 

Now as far as I am aware, 1929 marked the start of the newer, simple livery, and the 1929 Cornish Riviera / Torbay Limited stock was the first stock to receive it. At the outset, the livery did not include the double lining. This was phased in soon after (I still do not know the exact date but have found photos of old 70' coaches that were refurbished in 1931 with it).

 

Given my time period (33/34), what I am trying to work out is whether the 1929 stock would have been overhauled within 4-5 years and if so, would the double lining now be on these coaches? 

 

If anybody know how frequently mainline stock would have been given a fresh paint job, that would be amazing to know. I would also love to know whether roofs were repainted frequently too. I am guessing that 5 year old roofs would be very dark by now, but if they were given an overhaul after 4-5 years, then maybe I should have a few coaches with white roofs.

 

I look forward to hearing anything about re-painting, re-lining etc in this era.

 

 

 

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FWIW, here's what I say on gwr.org.uk:

 

"From 1922 onward, with the re-introduction of the brown and cream body colours, it seems less varnishing was applied, and the repainting interval dropped to approximately 7 years, and the pace of repainting seems to have accelerated during the mid- to late-1920s."

 

The qualification in the last part of that sentence tries to reflect the fact that crimson stuff seems to have disappeared by 1928, and fully-lined (1922-7) stuff seems to be rare by 1930.

 

Those pics you've seen of 1922/3 70' stock refurbed in 1931 would tie in with such a repaint window. The first repaints of the 1929 stock however are more likely to place them in single-waist-lining shirtbutton era.

 

What remains somewhat confusing is which stock qualified for double-waist lining ("the best express stock") and which remained in single-waist lining ("crosscountry and local carriages").
 The 1933 autotrailers were presumably regarded as a bit 'special', and received double-waist lining.

 

I'm in the dark about roof repaints. I would guess they got redone when sides were repainted.
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FWIW, here's what I say on gwr.org.uk:
 
"From 1922 onward, with the re-introduction of the brown and cream body colours, it seems less varnishing was applied, and the repainting interval dropped to approximately 7 years, and the pace of repainting seems to have accelerated during the mid- to late-1920s."
 
The qualification in the last part of that sentence tries to reflect the fact that crimson stuff seems to have disappeared by 1928, and fully-lined (1922-7) stuff seems to be rare by 1930.
 
Those pics you've seen of 1922/3 70' stock refurbed in 1931 would tie in with such a repaint window. The first repaints of the 1929 stock however are more likely to place them in single-waist-lining shirtbutton era.
 
What remains somewhat confusing is which stock qualified for double-waist lining ("the best express stock") and which remained in single-waist lining ("crosscountry and local carriages").
 The 1933 autotrailers were presumably regarded as a bit 'special', and received double-waist lining.
 
I'm in the dark about roof repaints. I would guess they got redone when sides were repainted.

 

 

That is very helpful. A 7 year cycle makes sense unless there was a major change (crimson to lined or lined to simple).

 

Assuming that is the case, I therefore need to model the 1929 CRE stock as rolled out because it would not have been repainted by 1933. The roofs would also not be very white at all by now!

 

I did see a rather nice photo of the 1925 articulated stock repainted in 1935/6 with the shirt-button. Given the above info, I think it would therefore be fair to assume that these coaches were painted in the simpler livery around 1930 and then the crest was swapped out for the shirt button in 1935/6. Of note, the roofs of the newly painted 10 year old coaches are immaculate white so I think it fair to assume that the 1930 repaint would have been white too. 

Edited by vonmarshall
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The LMS also used a 7-year paint lifetime.  

Of course, there would be exceptions. Damaged stock would probably be repainted promptly, but might be done in the existing pattern.  The "best express stock" might be redone in the newest corporate image (if it was quite different from before).  A change of crest might be only a splach of paint and a decal.  

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  • 4 weeks later...

 

FWIW, here's what I say on gwr.org.uk:
 
"From 1922 onward, with the re-introduction of the brown and cream body colours, it seems less varnishing was applied, and the repainting interval dropped to approximately 7 years, and the pace of repainting seems to have accelerated during the mid- to late-1920s."
 
The qualification in the last part of that sentence tries to reflect the fact that crimson stuff seems to have disappeared by 1928, and fully-lined (1922-7) stuff seems to be rare by 1930.
 
Those pics you've seen of 1922/3 70' stock refurbed in 1931 would tie in with such a repaint window. The first repaints of the 1929 stock however are more likely to place them in single-waist-lining shirtbutton era.
 
What remains somewhat confusing is which stock qualified for double-waist lining ("the best express stock") and which remained in single-waist lining ("crosscountry and local carriages").
 The 1933 autotrailers were presumably regarded as a bit 'special', and received double-waist lining.
 
I'm in the dark about roof repaints. I would guess they got redone when sides were repainted.

 

One qualification to the 7-year cycle for repainting. On returning to chocolate and cream, the GWR Board voted extra funds to speed up the conversion. I suspect that this was principally applied to express stock. So, the Lake livery would have disappeared quicker than expected with a 7-year cycle.

 

MarkAustin

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Thanks, Mark. That would explain why crimson lake became rare post-1926-ish, and why 1922 and 1924 b&c lined schemes also became rare toward the end of the '20s. (I will do some suitably qualifying words on gwr.org.uk.)

 

If that premise is correct however, it would seem to indicate that the 'extra funds' the Board voted for were implemented and spread out over a longer-term programme of livery conversion, i.e. not just a '1922 quick-fix whim'. When did they vote? 1922? 1924? 1927?

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If there was a rush to be rid of lined out maroon livery, then everything repainted between 1922 and 1928 was given fully lined out panelling.  Simple livery came in during 1928 but I'm sure the last coaches to receive full panelled livery would still be carrying it 5 years later and much longer than this when it came to the older pre 1922 stock. Even GWR trains made up of plain choc & cream looked a rag-tag bunch with differing waistlines, cantrail levels and shades of cream varying between freshly applied to mustard colour. Therefore, I wonder if coaches carrying full panelled livery really stood out. The LMS got away with mixed design train formations because all the coaches were crimson lake.  On that railway, full panelling finished in 1933, but some coaches still carried it even after the war.

 

As for roofs, the covering was designed to protect, that is all. On a steam railway it would go greyish-brown in no time at all on some routes and I doubt anyone would concern themselves if it was no longer white. The GWR was the first to adopt steel roof panelling anyway so no canvass to rip or deteriorate. The all-white roof regime is a modellers fancy like black underframes.

Edited by coachmann
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  • 2 years later...

Hello all I have a couple of new questions regarding repainting, particularly of the Ocean Mails 70' stock, the Ocean Mails K38s and the Articulated Dining Cars.

 

I have photos of the 70' Ocean Mails coaches that purport to be taken in 1937 and they are still in full lined livery. they were originally crimson when built in the early 1900's so it makes sense they received the lined livery some time in the late 10's early 20's but then seem to have been unpainted for 10+ years if they are still lined in '37.

 

I also have plenty of photos of the K38 Ocean Mails vans in 1925 lined livery or in post 1947 livery, but nothing in between.

 

And finally I have plenty of photos of the Articulated dining cars in fully lined livery or in 1935 shirtbutton (the photos are dated 1936), but again nothing in between. No 1932 (7 years after they were built) pictures at all.

 

I cannot find any photos of any of the parcel vans or articulated stock in 1929-34 livery. 

 

So my question regards special trains around 1935, the period I model and the trains I am interested in.

 

From my research it would appear that in 1936 I should have a rather eclectic mix of liveries if I am modelling Ocean Mails and / or Ocean Liner expresses with lined livery on the Ocean Mails vans, lined livery or Shirtbutton on the Dining car triplets, and the 1929-34 livery on some of the other coaches. 

 

What do you all think? 

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1 hour ago, vonmarshall said:

I have photos of the 70' Ocean Mails coaches that purport to be taken in 1937 and they are still in full lined livery. they were originally crimson when built in the early 1900's so it makes sense they received the lined livery some time in the late 10's early 20's but then seem to have been unpainted for 10+ years if they are still lined in '37. 

 

If you mean diagram M15, these first appeared in lined brown livery. Here's one in 1947, in brown and cream. 

 

Ordinary full brakes were appearing in all-over brown from the mid-1920s, mainly the older Dean designs, but the later Colletts e.g. K40 could be seen in all-over brown from the mid-1930s.

 

Here's a good thread on K38s.

 

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4 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

 

If you mean diagram M15, these first appeared in lined brown livery. Here's one in 1947, in brown and cream. 

 

 

 

I think I did mean the M15. I have a book on the GWR Post Offices and it shows an M15 at the harbour being loaded in 1937 and it is in fully lined livery.

Thanks for the link to the K38 thread.

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Just following up on this for anybody interested...

 

In my Post Office GWr book which has an extensive chapter on the Ocean Mails, there is a photo of an M15 taken in 1937 still in full lined livery.

 

And then on HMRS there are 3 photos of interest...

 

An M15 taken in 1929 in the lined livery

https://hmrs.org.uk/photographs/70-apos-12wheel-ocean-mails-stowage-van-gw-1206-diag-m15-at-plymouth-millbay-side-built-10-1910-lot-1185.html

 

An M9 taken in 1935 in the 29-34 livery

https://hmrs.org.uk/photographs/70-apos-ocean-mails-stowage-van-gw-824-d-m9-at-plymouth-millbay-side-one-pair-of-doors-open-corner-of-dock-foreground-shed-background.html

 

A K38 taken in 1935 in the 1929-34 livery

https://hmrs.org.uk/photographs/57-apos-ocean-mails-brake-van-gw-1169-d-k38-at-plymouth-millbay-side-corner-of-dock-foreground.html

 

So in summary, a 1935 Ocean Mails train with either M9 or K38 was 100% prototypically painted in the simple livery, but at least one of the M15's were not repainted from lined as late as 1937.

 

You have to love the GWR!

 

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I've spent some time looking at those pictures in Hosegood's book, and I don't believe the date can be correct, despite being repeated several times. The staff uniforms look more like 1920s. For me the clincher is the front view of the train waiting to leave: the Castle has a small tender and the upper lamp iron on top of the smokebox, which together put it pre-1930. I respectfully suggest that the date is 1927, not 1937.

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