Hugh Longworth's book on pre-Nationalisation coaching stock

[Peter Kazmierczak]

My copy of the book sits beneath the Christmas tree, so I can't open it until the 25th.

[Enterprisingwestern]

My copy of the book sits beneath the Christmas tree, so I can't open it until the 25th.

 

Should've been a Pagan!

 

Mike.

[balders]

Ooooo....Amazon delivery expected shortly....looking forward to Vol.2 already!

 

Guy

[Nick Gough]

A quick query - if I may?

Does this volume just cover these vehicles in the post-1948 period or does it also have information useful for the pre-nationalisation era?

[Stanley Melrose]

Peter,

 

You may wish to open your present asap.  My copy is missing pages 225 to 240.  These are replaced with duplicate copies of pages 211 to 224.  I'll be very surprised if my copy is the only one affected and will be suggesting to my supplier that all stock is examined before despatch.

 

I'll contact Crecy as well.

 

It's a tragedy because this book is clearly a real labour of love and while I understand the economic realities of publishing in a hard-back book rather than just making it freely available on the internet, wouldn't it be splendid to have all this data available online in a searchable database?

 

Stan

 

My copy of the book sits beneath the Christmas tree, so I can't open it until the 25th.

[tanatvalley]

A quick query - if I may?

Does this volume just cover these vehicles in the post-1948 period or does it also have information useful for the pre-nationalisation era?

It contains those vehicles that entered BR at Nationalisation. It starts with a numerical list of all the stock that came into British Railways ownership including building and withdrawal dates and diagram number. What follows is a “Hauled Stock Class List” by diagram number.

[balders]

Peter,

 

You may wish to open your present asap. My copy is missing pages 225 to 240. These are replaced with duplicate copies of pages 211 to 224. I'll be very surprised if my copy is the only one affected and will be suggesting to my supplier that all stock is examined before despatch.

 

I'll contact Crecy as well.

 

It's a tragedy because this book is clearly a real labour of love and while I understand the economic realities of publishing in a hard-back book rather than just making it freely available on the internet, wouldn't it be splendid to have all this data available online in a searchable database?

 

Stan

Mine is due in the next couple of days.....I'll keep you posted. Thanks for the heads up.

 

Regards

 

Guy

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Peter,

 

You may wish to open your present asap.  My copy is missing pages 225 to 240.  These are replaced with duplicate copies of pages 211 to 224.  I'll be very surprised if my copy is the only one affected and will be suggesting to my supplier that all stock is examined before despatch.

 

I'll contact Crecy as well.

 

It's a tragedy because this book is clearly a real labour of love and while I understand the economic realities of publishing in a hard-back book rather than just making it freely available on the internet, wouldn't it be splendid to have all this data available online in a searchable database?

 

Stan

 

 

 

Thanks for the heads-up Stan.

 

Just opened the parcel and had a quick thumb through my copy. Cor, it's a thick tome.

 

My copy appears to be OK. I got mine from Wordery (via Amazon).

 

Many thanks. Hope you get yours sorted.

 

Peter

[Clive Mortimore]

Peter,

 

You may wish to open your present asap.  My copy is missing pages 225 to 240.  These are replaced with duplicate copies of pages 211 to 224.  I'll be very surprised if my copy is the only one affected and will be suggesting to my supplier that all stock is examined before despatch.

 

I'll contact Crecy as well.

 

It's a tragedy because this book is clearly a real labour of love and while I understand the economic realities of publishing in a hard-back book rather than just making it freely available on the internet, wouldn't it be splendid to have all this data available online in a searchable database?

 

Stan

Hi Stan

 

Thanks for letting people know.

 

I have checked my copy and it is OK so it doesn't seem to be a fault across the whole print.

[Stanley Melrose]

Hi All,

 

Crecy have indicated that they believe the problem is restricted to my copy and advised that I seek a replacement.  That is already in train but it does seem very strange that this unfortunate problem is restricted to one copy.  I would have thought that the presses ran with a consistent input so to find that a single copy is affected defies belief.  Nevertheless, if that is the case, I shall be very pleased to hear it - as no doubt all other purchasers will!

 

I'd still love to have all the data in this book (and Vol 2) in an online searchable database!

 

ATB to all,

 

Stan

 

 

Hi Stan

 

Thanks for letting people know.

 

I have checked my copy and it is OK so it doesn't seem to be a fault across the whole print.

[Stanley Melrose]

Today's news is that a replacement copy is on its way and I've received a pre-paid label to return the faulty copy.

 

Profuse apologies from Blackwells and Crecy so full marks for custom service from both!

 

Hope Vol 2 delivery is on time because that's the one I'm really interested in perusing in depth.

 

Stan

 

Hi All,

 

Crecy have indicated that they believe the problem is restricted to my copy and advised that I seek a replacement.  That is already in train but it does seem very strange that this unfortunate problem is restricted to one copy.  I would have thought that the presses ran with a consistent input so to find that a single copy is affected defies belief.  Nevertheless, if that is the case, I shall be very pleased to hear it - as no doubt all other purchasers will!

 

I'd still love to have all the data in this book (and Vol 2) in an online searchable database!

 

ATB to all,

 

Stan

[balders]

Arrived this morning and very impressive volume......despite the fact the packaging had been clearly tampered with by the Christmas Thieves who seem to inhabit certain distribution centres.....the fourth package we've received in two weeks that has been tampered with or plain burgled for its contents.

 

Regards

 

Guy

[robertcwp]

I could not find Thompson brake thirds 1690 and 1691 in the book. They were, I believe, rebuilt as sleeper brakes in 1956.

[Compound2632]

I could not find Thompson brake thirds 1690 and 1691 in the book. They were, I believe, rebuilt as sleeper brakes in 1956.

 

indignor quandoque bonus dormitat Homerus

[Peter Kazmierczak]

indignor quandoque bonus dormitat Homerus

Homer's usually awake (or hungover) when I watch the Simpsons.....

[Pteremy]

Perhaps the Christmas Thieves took the Brake Thirds.....

[Willie Whizz]

I couldn't possibly comment on what is being said here - I simply don't have the knowledge and expertise - but here is a point of view which past and prospective purchasers of Mr Longworth's book may find of interest.

 

https://www.steve-banks.org/prototype-and-traffic/349-british-railways-pre-nationalisation-coaching-stock

 

My only observation is this:  There eventually comes a point when one simply has to "publish and be damned", because if you wait ... and wait ... and wait ...until you're utterly certain you have every last conceivable and exhaustible 'fact' available, you probably never will publish - and even then, when you do, some so-and-so body will  still come out of the woodwork and say (as the old saying goes). "any fule kno ..." 

 

It may be no coincidence that the long-awaited Banks & Carter Volume 2 book has been put back yet again because (according to Crecy Publishing) "the author [sic] is still working on it".

 

It is perhaps a debatable point:  Is a technical book that is (say) 95% correct better than no book at all?  If one needs it now or very soon, rather than hypothetically in ten years?  And indeed, could even Nigel Gresley and his Carriage and Wagon Superintendent (or whatever the correct title might have been) themselves have written the 100% correct book at the time they were doing the job, even before so many records were lost, destroyed or secreted into private collections?

Edited December 16, 2018 by Willie Whizz

[Peter Kazmierczak]

There has always been contradictory data about railways, ever since the Stephenson's got onto their Rocket, and probably before.....

 

For example, the LMR were very fond of weekly periods, which didn't tie in with monthly returns from other regions. Also it was not unknown

to "massage" the figures to show that, for example, a certain works output might've been higher than it actually was over a specific period.

 

Loco allocations (and reallocations) can be a minefield. One region might say that DXXX was reallocated away in one month, whilst the

receiving region might quote another. Then there were locos "on-loan" or transfers that only ever happened on paper.

 

If the official figures vary, then what is "the truth"?

 

Timetables are another area where in one table, a train might be shown as going from A to B, whilst another table (in the same book)

indicate that it goes from A via B to C. Old Bradshaws are notoriously difficult to decipher at times.

 

Then there are station opening and closure dates. The list goes on.

 

Doubtless coaches are no different.

 

Whatever the pros and cons of Hugh Longworth's opus, I feel that for most purposes it's better to get the information out in the

public realm, rather than it stuck away in a drawer or someone's private collection, never to see the light of day.

[Coach bogie]

It is a very useful book for coach numbers etc, but for modelling it has limited value as, like other publications before it, the diagram is for one side of the coach only. I was looking forward to this a a one stop reference, but will still have to reference other sources for information on the opposite side of the a coach.

 

Sorry to put a downer on it, but as a builder of GWR coaches, diagrams of both sides is a must.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[robertcwp]

I couldn't possibly comment on what is being said here - I simply don't have the knowledge and expertise - but here is a point of view which past and prospective purchasers of Mr Longworth's book may find of interest.

 

https://www.steve-banks.org/prototype-and-traffic/349-british-railways-pre-nationalisation-coaching-stock

 

My only observation is this:  There eventually comes a point when one simply has to "publish and be damned", because if you wait ... and wait ... and wait ...until you're utterly certain you have every last conceivable and exhaustible 'fact' available, you probably never will publish - and even then, when you do, some so-and-so body will  still come out of the woodwork and say (as the old saying goes). "any fule kno ..." 

 

It may be no coincidence that the long-awaited Banks & Carter Volume 2 book has been put back yet again because (according to Crecy Publishing) "the author [sic] is still working on it".

 

It is perhaps a debatable point:  Is a technical book that is (say) 95% correct better than no book at all?  If one needs it now or very soon, rather than hypothetically in ten years?  And indeed, could even Nigel Gresley and his Carriage and Wagon Superintendent (or whatever the correct title might have been) themselves have written the 100% correct book at the time they were doing the job, even before so many records were lost, destroyed or secreted into private collections?

Steve Banks is hardly writing from a position of strength here given all the issues with Volume 1 of his book, which have been discussed at length elsewhere, although what he has written in the piece linked above is fairly typical of him. I would not afford it much weight.

[Welchester]

Hi All,

 

Crecy have indicated that they believe the problem is restricted to my copy and advised that I seek a replacement.  That is already in train but it does seem very strange that this unfortunate problem is restricted to one copy.  I would have thought that the presses ran with a consistent input so to find that a single copy is affected defies belief.  Nevertheless, if that is the case, I shall be very pleased to hear it - as no doubt all other purchasers will!

 

I'd still love to have all the data in this book (and Vol 2) in an online searchable database!

 

ATB to all,

 

Stan

 

The problem isn't restricted to your copy. I've just contacted the seller to arrange a replacement.

[Pint of Adnams]

It is a very useful book for coach numbers etc, but for modelling it has limited value as, like other publications before it, the diagram is for one side of the coach only. I was looking forward to this a a one stop reference, but will still have to reference other sources for information on the opposite side of the a coach.

 

Sorry to put a downer on it, but as a builder of GWR coaches, diagrams of both sides is a must.

 

Mike Wiltshire

Diagrams invariably only show one side, plan view and an end view so you will remain disappointed. The only way, apart from photographs, to get a view of the opposite side is to derive it from the plan view which does show the position of doors and windows, the rest can be developed through understanding the design characteristics.

[Willie Whizz]

Steve Banks is hardly writing from a position of strength here given all the issues with Volume 1 of his book, which have been discussed at length elsewhere, although what he has written in the piece linked above is fairly typical of him. I would not afford it much weight.

 

Although to be fair, he has acknowledged a number of those issues and offered further comment on his website.  I'll readily admit the problem with my call to "publish and be damned" is that, if there's only ever one edition of a book, there's never an opportunity to correct in print mistakes (not all of which may even be the author's) and introduce new material which has 'come out of the woodwork' from other 'experts' - especially those who see things differently yet haven't been able or willing to write and get published a book of their own.

 

So, like I asked earlier, is it better to have a 95% correct work "now or very soon", or wait in hope of a hypothetical 100% correct book "in say 10 years" that - for all sorts of reasons - may never materialise?

 

Having thought about this some more, I suspect I may not have all that much more than 10 more years of good modelling left in me; therefore if I'm to push-on with my 'Last Great Project' I think frankly I'll settle for the 95%!

[balders]

Put it into perspective of anything involving research. Your product is as good as your source. As a historian (and yes I did my degree before the internet) I think the scope of the project is pretty epic considering the scope of sourcing original material AND putting it together in a readable format. I am still taken aback by the amount of material. Considering it's coaching stock as well where records are nowhere near as comprehensive as locomotive. Double sided diagrams? Yes. I get your point but when some of the stock was built in the 1890's that ain't no bad effort. Mr.L. makes the caveat that if the info isn't good enough to put pen to paper in respect of dates then it isn't done.

 

I'm looking forward to the next Volume as I've a special place for LMS stock. Great stuff.

 

Regards

 

Guy

[Coach bogie]

Diagrams invariably only show one side, plan view and an end view so you will remain disappointed. The only way, apart from photographs, to get a view of the opposite side is to derive it from the plan view which does show the position of doors and windows, the rest can be developed through understanding the design characteristics.

I have to disagree. Deriving window/door positions has led to assumptions and incorrect coach sides being produced.  I still have a set of D56 sides with 'derived' door positions which is just inaccurate. It is the GWR coaches that I have an interest in, and plans of both sides are available in many cases. Like Balders, I have been researching prior to the Berners Lee revolution and sought out copies of both sides (and both ends which can be different). My professional background taught me to understand the target market to maximise sales. As this book is being talked about on RMWEB, then modellers are clearly part of the intended market, and as such the published diagrams offers only limited information. 

 

Mike Wiltshire