Hugh Longworth's book on pre-Nationalisation coaching stock

[Pint of Adnams]

I have to disagree. Deriving window/door positions has led to assumptions and incorrect coach sides being produced.  I still have a set of D56 sides with 'derived' door positions which is just inaccurate. It is the GWR coaches that I have an interest in, and plans of both sides are available in many cases. Like Balders, I have been researching prior to the Berners Lee revolution and sought out copies of both sides (and both ends which can be different). My professional background taught me to understand the target market to maximise sales. As this book is being talked about on RMWEB, then modellers are clearly part of the intended market, and as such the published diagrams offers only limited information. 

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

You might disagree but you confuse by requesting Diagrams showing both sides that were never produced by the companies and PLANS that might - a different beast altogether... In this instance correct use of terminology is important.

 

I do agree that, in the case of the LNER, the Diagrams as reproduced show less than the officials but, on the other hand, the GER-produced Diagrams were less informative.

[Coach bogie]

OK if it keeps you happy. PLANS of both sides

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Clive Mortimore]

OK if it keeps you happy. PLANS of both sides

 

Mike Wiltshire

I wonder if there is some kind soul who could help Hugh with this mammoth task? 

 

For GWR fans the Russell books are no more help despite most the drawings/plans/diagrams/illustrations being in 4mm scale.

Edited December 27, 2018 by Clive Mortimore

[robertcwp]

Although to be fair, he has acknowledged a number of those issues and offered further comment on his website.  I'll readily admit the problem with my call to "publish and be damned" is that, if there's only ever one edition of a book, there's never an opportunity to correct in print mistakes (not all of which may even be the author's) and introduce new material which has 'come out of the woodwork' from other 'experts' - especially those who see things differently yet haven't been able or willing to write and get published a book of their own.

 

So, like I asked earlier, is it better to have a 95% correct work "now or very soon", or wait in hope of a hypothetical 100% correct book "in say 10 years" that - for all sorts of reasons - may never materialise?

 

Having thought about this some more, I suspect I may not have all that much more than 10 more years of good modelling left in me; therefore if I'm to push-on with my 'Last Great Project' I think frankly I'll settle for the 95%!

What is acknowledged is a small fraction of the issues identified in Vol 1. A lengthy list was compiled by one of the line societies a few years ago, to which I contributed. I'm not sure it was ever published though (I don't own the copyright so can't publish it).

 

The 95% right now or 100% right maybe in 10 years' time if ever is an interesting question. Having contributed to lots of books (not on railways, except one bookazine) and written various articles, I doubt that 100% right is ever really achievable. I would probably settle for 98-99% but how the author takes to corrections and clarifications is important. The internet allows these to be publicised but the reception that some very good books receive can be so scathing as to probably put many authors off. Other authors have such an inflated opinion of themselves that they believe they are above challenge or criticism and whilst they might make a token acknowledgement of a few errors (often pointing the finger elsewhere) they don't really engage well with their readership or endear themselves to those who might buy their works. There are also some names where you pretty much know in advance that the writing will not be up to much. You might buy the book anyway, for example because it is very well illustrated.

 

You don't do it for the money either.

[Willie Whizz]

And that’s it in a nutshell, isn’t it Robert? These days you’re damned if you do and damned if you don’t. The people who are prepared to stick their heads above the parapet and overcome all the challenges of putting something out that’s accessible to the wider public, rather than stay within the comfort zone of tiny specialised societies and groups where they probably already have some reputation, but hardly anyone else knows they exist, are surely to be accorded some respect. So as far as I’m concerned, respect to Mr Longworth for all his book’s alleged faults; and to Banks and Carter too.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Who are Banks & Carter please?

Edited December 18, 2018 by Peter Kazmierczak

[Steamport Southport]

Who are Banks & Carter please?

 

I believe they are referring to this book.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/LNER-Passenger-Trains-Formations-1923-67/dp/086093649X

 

 

 

Jason

[Peter Kazmierczak]

I believe they are referring to this book.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/LNER-Passenger-Trains-Formations-1923-67/dp/086093649X

 

 

 

Jason

Ta Jason.

[robertcwp]

And that’s it in a nutshell, isn’t it Robert? These days you’re damned if you do and damned if you don’t. The people who are prepared to stick their heads above the parapet and overcome all the challenges of putting something out that’s accessible to the wider public, rather than stay within the comfort zone of tiny specialised societies and groups where they probably already have some reputation, but hardly anyone else knows they exist, are surely to be accorded some respect. So as far as I’m concerned, respect to Mr Longworth for all his book’s alleged faults; and to Banks and Carter too.

Yes, better than no book at all in both cases. The Banks/Carter book had lots of good photos in it and the Longworth books are a good source of information and better than none.

[Pteremy]

In theory an online database would address these concerns, something which could be kept updated as new information is found. And flag areas of possible uncertainty or information gaps.

[Clive Mortimore]

In theory an online database would address these concerns, something which could be kept updated as new information is found. And flag areas of possible uncertainty or information gaps.

I am not too sure that would work or be accurate. I know from post on this forum how  inaccurate information gets passed about even after people have proved it wrong , four post later the same myth reappears. All I can see is an on line data base would be full of these errors and any time they are corrected they would be changed back.

[Pteremy]

I agree that it would need to have good ongoing control/ownership, which is probably why it doesn't exist, too much of a commitment. And there is no reason why different views could not be accommodated, if they exist.

[Stanley Melrose]

My replacement copy arrived today and although I haven't checked all the way through, it is clear that the missing pages from the faulty edition are available in the copy delivered.

 

Regarding an online database, that would be my preference but clearly unlikely to pay royalties to Mr Longworth, whose heroic endeavours resulted in this printed version. While I might pay for access to an online version, it would soon be passed (if not by me but by others with less scruples) to other interested parties without payment - hence the online business model fails as there is almost always a way around most protection systems that limit access to a single paying customer.

 

If anyone has concrete ideas of a business model which would simultaneously reward Mr Longworth while making all the data he has assembled available to all interested parties, now is surely the time to speak up.

 

Whatever the way forward, I await with interest the ex-LMS story.

 

Stan

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi Stan

 

The beauty of having the information readily to hand, straight off the bookshelf, means there is less chance of it being there one day and not the next. I have uploaded information, drawings etc. only for the host to go PUFF and the whole lot lost. Being naive, thinking it would be there for ever I didn't save a copy and blow doing it all again. 

[Peter Kazmierczak]

As Clive rightly says, much better to have the info in hard copy, rather than on a cloud somewhere. Easier to read when in the

smallest room of the house too.....

 

I've got stuff on a floppy disc (remember them?). Can't access it now.

Memory sticks that lose their "memory".

 

Also databases can be altered; yes sometimes for the better, but more often not.

[Pteremy]

Yes, books have their uses too!

 

On a different point, anyone interested in formal Diagrams should note that the ones in this book are tiny, less than the width of the half page columns containing the lists. I like the fact that they are included as they should help with recognition in a photo. But I don't think that they are going to be the basis for detailed modelling purposes on their own.  

[BMacdermott]

Hello everyone

 

I have had my book for a few days now and would like to thank Hugh for his hard and dedicated work in producing this work (and the projected follow up).

 

No book is ever going to be 100% perfect but at least this publication gives us some clear representations of stock - given that some (many?) will have been altered in some way over the years. The cross-referencing layout is very handy, particularly on those occasions where a photo shows just a sneaky few feet of a coach and its running number behind a loco. It's a simple matter to look the number up, cross-check the diagram number, then refer to the relevant page.

 

I particularly like the way the LNER articulated stock is shown 'individually' and then as combined sets - very nice. And the set numbers are there, too.

 

My book is fine and all pages are intact. Coming from the printing industry, I can say for certain that the error is nothing to do with any printing press per se. There are a number of possible reasons why buyers might be missing the noted 16pp section, but they might never be known.

 

Overall, very, very pleased.

 

Brian

[81C]

It's a nice book, I had a quick look through it today 3-4 later SWMBO call up that our guest had arrived I was well and truly plumbed in 

what did catch my eye was the info' on brown stock and milk tankers full credit goes to Hugh for another fine reference book. 

[The Stationmaster]

It's a nice book, I had a quick look through it today 3-4 later SWMBO call up that our guest had arrived I was well and truly plumbed in 

what did catch my eye was the info' on brown stock and milk tankers full credit goes to Hugh for another fine reference book. 

 

Only got my copy yesterday and as it's officially a combined Christmas and Birthday present I'm technically not supposed to delve into it until next week.  But a quick look through  prior to purchase (by my son)  sent a 'wow!' to my lips, and for me particularly withdrawal dates are very useful.

[Bucoops]

I picked this up recently as soon as I heard of its existence but haven't had a chance to actually look through it yet. It did cross my mind that it is pointless to me having GWR info as well as LNER - but my follow up thought was "can you do better?" Of course I can't so no more thoughts like that from me.

 

Any error is unfortunate but it is a minefield so I'm not too concerned, My percieved use is to identify specific types that are useful for my future layout and then use it as as starting point for individual research.

 

Thank you Mr Longworth for all your hard work

[Bucoops]

I picked this up recently as soon as I heard of its existence but haven't had a chance to actually look through it yet. It did cross my mind that it is pointless to me having GWR info as well as LNER - but my follow up thought was "can you do better?" Of course I can't so no more thoughts like that from me.

 

Any error is unfortunate but it is a minefield so I'm not too concerned, My percieved use is to identify specific types that are useful for my future layout and then use it as as starting point for individual research.

 

Thank you Mr Longworth for all your hard work

 

I've had a flick through - the introduction talks about the usage I had already decided it was for so that's good. I have spotted a couple of small errors - things like the heading has the correct diagram number but the text below has the previous one instead - makes me think it was copy-pasted and not amended fully. I can live with the odd one like that as the sketch plan gives a good clue as to what it should be anyway. I wish I had the patience (and time!) to put something like this together, it's an enourmous amount of data.

 

Now, who wants to do one for pre-grouping stock absorbed into the LNER for me? 

[Hugh Longworth]

Volume 2 went to the printers at the end of December, so it should be available in February.  Enjoy!

[Compound2632]

I've had a flick through - the introduction talks about the usage I had already decided it was for so that's good. I have spotted a couple of small errors - things like the heading has the correct diagram number but the text below has the previous one instead - makes me think it was copy-pasted and not amended fully. I can live with the odd one like that as the sketch plan gives a good clue as to what it should be anyway. I wish I had the patience (and time!) to put something like this together, it's an enourmous amount of data.

 

Now, who wants to do one for pre-grouping stock absorbed into the LNER for me? 

 

A much more rational proceeding would be books on the coaching stock of each of the constituent companies - as exist for the major LMS constituents and, I believe, the Southern. 

[Peter Kazmierczak]

I've just put up a quick review of this book on "Amazon", but what struck me is that no mention is made of Pullman cars. They were an important element on the LNER - maybe they'll all appear in Vol 2?

[Bucoops]

A much more rational proceeding would be books on the coaching stock of each of the constituent companies - as exist for the major LMS constituents and, I believe, the Southern. 

 

True - but the ex-GE had not only ex-GE stock but also had all sorts of other stuff cascaded down.