LYR, LNWR, GCR, MR in Manchester

[40135]

My primary interest in the UK has always been pre-grouping. Until recently, the difficulty of modeling this era has put me off, but now I'm seeing how easily available the kits are, and how good they look, I thought I'd give it a try.

 

I'm wondering, therefore, if there would be a prototypical location to base my four pre-grouping interests in Manchester.

 

I don't want to build an exact model of a prototype, merely to add an essence of realism to proceedings. I know the GCR operated into Central, I believe the MR operated into London Road, as did the LNWR, and the LNWR and LYR operated into Victoria, and later Exchange.

 

There's photographic evidence of NER teak stock through Victoria, too, behind Lanky locos.

 

If I have to sacrifice just one of the above, it'd be the MR; I know the first three are far more 'Manchester' than the last one. I just want to know if there'd be anywhere they'd share metals. Maybe around Castlefield?

[peanuts]

you could try around Oldham L&Y LNWR plus gcr over the oagb joint 

[SHMD]

Stalybridge has GCR, L&Y and LNWR.

 

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a6/Ashton%2C_Ashton_Moss%2C_Crothorn%2C_Droylsden%2C_Guide_Bridge%2C_Hyde%2C_Oldham_%26_Stalybridge_RJD_32.jpg

 

Or near Ashton, or Guide Bridge...

 

 

Kev.

 

[Argos]

It depends on how close to Manchester "around Manchester" is.

 

Macclesfield would be a good option, the GCR ran in over the Marple and Bollington line (joint with the NSR) and the LNWR formed an end on junction with the NSR.

 

The L&Y had running rights over the LNWR into Macc, I don't know if these were ever exercised though.

[johnd]

Don't forget Central which had Midland, Cheshire lines commitee, Great Central/LNER.

[johnd]

The book book LNER & LMS in Manchester would provide plenty of interest for you.

[40135]

Wow, an enlightening array of responses, amazing! Particularly the suggestions of the OAGB lines; the Oldham Loop is extremely special to me.

 

Thank you so much, all.

[coachmann]

Between Oldham Clegg Street, Central, Mumps and Glodwick Road stations is where the L&Y, LNWR and GCR came together. Up until 1939, the LNWR presence was still at Lees MPD with Coal Tanks and Super D's. The L&Y 2-4-2T's still worked the Oldham Loop alongside the LMS 2-6-4T's and the Saddletank 0-6-0's and 3F 0-6-0's worked transfer freights while the 0-6-0ST's sworked Higginshaw Gas Works into the 1960's. GCR 0-6-2T's and 4-4-2T's worked over the OA&GB.

 

I have just noticed you are interested in pre-grouping, so you can add to the above list all manner of LNWR classes except Claughtons. Similarly there was some variety of motive power on L&Y lines and GCR lines.

 

Late LMS and BR might be an easier option when it comes to coaching stock though unless you are prepared to build kits. Chowbent did coach kits for L&Y and LNWR. Barry Stevenson did LNWR coach kits. North Eastern Design did a few GCR kits as does Mousa Models. Some NER non-corridor coaches were drafted to the Manchester area in very early BR days.

[PenrithBeacon]

Your topic is so all embracing that I think you need to start buying some books. Or you could go wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oldham,_Ashton_and_Guide_Bridge_Railway

 

Regards

[Joseph_Pestell]

OP does not mention scale. But even in 2mm there is a remarkably wide range of kits available these days, particularly from Worsley Works (appropriately based in Manchester).

[John_Miles]

The Midland also operated into Victoria. There is a photo in the current Backtrack of a Johnson 4-4-0 on the L&Y. They ran trains northwards over the L&Y to Hellifield to connect with their Scottish expresses. The Midland's usage of London Road was fairly short. They used the MS&L side (layer GCR) but things became rather crowded so they were given notice to quit. Central opened just in time so after that their trains to the south used Central. I have fond memories of Central, it was fairly quiet but rather grand. The Midland also had a huge goods depot at Ancoats. Finally you missed the GWR. They operated into Manchester via running powers over the LNWR (IIRC) from Warrington. I think they must also have used the MSJA.

[John_Miles]

I forgot the GNR. It was a partner in CLC so I should have remembered. IIRC they mostly ran goods trains to Manchester, both by the GCR route over Woodhead and the Midland via Pinxton, the Erewash and Hope Valley lines. Their huge warehouse still exists in Deansgate.

[Regularity]

The GWR had running powers into Exchange, regularly used, just to add an extra flavour into the mix.

Edited October 1, 2017 by Regularity

[PenrithBeacon]

The GWR had running powers into Exchange, regularly used, just to add an extra flavour into the mix.

Until 1941. The GW had running powers over the MSJ&A but these were not used. The LNW gave them running powers over the L&M line to use instead. Locos were serviced at Ordsall Lane. Edited October 1, 2017 by PenrithBeacon

[Arthur]

 

I'm not sure what, if any, loco servicing facilities remained in use at Ordsall Lane after it's duties were transferred to the new depot at Patricroft, opened in 1884.

 

Certainly in later years, as evidenced by several photos, GW locos working into Exchange were serviced at Patricroft.

 

I've seen one photo of an outside framed 4-4-0 there.

 

.

[LMS2968]

Ordsall Lane continued to service locos long after Patricroft opened and into the 20th Century. It survived Patricroft's enlargement in 1901/02, but does not appear on the 1916 OS map.

[PenrithBeacon]

Ordsall Lane continued to service locos long after Patricroft opened and into the 20th Century. It survived Patricroft's enlargement in 1901/02, but does not appear on the 1916 OS map.

It was converted to a wagon repair shop. It was possible to see locos stabled there in the early 1960s

[PeterR]

Hi,

 

The Midland ran trains from Liverpool/Southport  through Victoria and up to Hellifield via Colne and I would think then to Carlisle.

 

The OA&GB ran through from Guide Bridge (with GC engines and stock) to Oldham.

 

The GC & Midland ran through the Chorlton (the GC branching off to go to Hyde Road and Audenshaw etc for Guide Bridge and Woodhead); the Midland continuing to Marple, and Millers Dale to Derby.

 

Back to Manchester stations the LNW had Exchange(and London Road)  which was severely bombed and has disappeared; the GWR ran trains to Chester from there as well as mentioned above..

 

There was a connecting line through Beswick  which I would think that the Midland/LNWR, and possibly the LYR used. Another It ran from London Road (GC side) with a branch off the Ancoats Goods Yard (MR) and through to the Miles Platting (LYR) area.

 

The NER and the LYR ran a competing service through from Liverpool to Victoria , en route to York (via the Calder Valley and Rochdale)  and Newcastle for which special rolling stock was built by both railways, and needed adjustments as the stock was too wide! The door handles were sunk into the sides to rectify things.

 

Peter

 

;

Edited October 10, 2017 by PeterR

[lanchester]

It depends on how close to Manchester "around Manchester" is.

 

Macclesfield would be a good option, the GCR ran in over the Marple and Bollington line (joint with the NSR) and the LNWR formed an end on junction with the NSR.

 

The L&Y had running rights over the LNWR into Macc, I don't know if these were ever exercised though.

I've seen pix of L&Y carriages being attached at Stockport to London expresses having apparently arrived from Colne.

[woodenhead]

Until 1941. The GW had running powers over the MSJ&A but these were not used. The LNW gave them running powers over the L&M line to use instead. Locos were serviced at Ordsall Lane.

My father used to have a GW routemap on his wall, I am sure it also showed GW running powers along the Sandbach route into Manchester from Crewe.

[The Stationmaster]

Until 1941. The GW had running powers over the MSJ&A but these were not used. The LNW gave them running powers over the L&M line to use instead. Locos were serviced at Ordsall Lane.

 

Interestingly the 1939 RCH list of running powers only shows the GWR as having running powers into Manchester from Walton Old Jcn and via the L&M route to Manchester Exchange.  (the llst doesn't mention Warrington separately although the GWR were running through to there prior to the Grouping and GWR engines worked through to Warrington in WWI with the 'Jellicoe Specials.  Incidentally GWR goods traffic was working into Manchester in GWR trains in the 1890s according to the Service timetable and could I think have only accessed the GWR's depot via that route.

[Leander]

The Midland ran trains from Liverpool/Southport  through Victoria and up to Hellifield via Colne and I would think then to Carlisle.

Trains from Liverpool to Hellifield went nowhere near either Manchester or Colne. The Liverpool - Hellifield workings went via Blackburn and Clitheroe. Midland services from Manchester to the S&C line at Hellifield travelled via, Bolton, Blackburn and Clitheroe.

 

On another point from your post, you appear to infer that exchange's closure was due to bombing in WWII. It was patched up, as was Victoria, after the cessation of hostilities, closing on 5 May 1969. All remaining services were redirected to Manchester Victoria.

[John_Miles]

Hi,

 

The Midland ran trains from Liverpool/Southport  through Victoria and up to Hellifield via Colne and I would think then to Carlisle.

 

The OA&GB ran through from Guide Bridge (with GC engines and stock) to Oldham.

 

The GC & Midland ran through the Chorlton (the GC branching off to go to Hyde Road and Audenshaw etc for Guide Bridge and Woodhead); the Midland continuing to Marple, and Millers Dale to Derby.

 

Back to Manchester stations the LNW had Exchange(and London Road)  which was severely bombed and has disappeared; the GWR ran trains to Chester from there as well as mentioned above..

 

There was a connecting line through Beswick  which I would think that the Midland/LNWR, and possibly the LYR used. Another It ran from London Road (GC side) with a branch off the Ancoats Goods Yard (MR) and through to the Miles Platting (LYR) area.

 

The NER and the LYR ran a competing service through from Liverpool to Victoria , en route to York (via the Calder Valley and Rochdale)  and Newcastle for which special rolling stock was built by both railways, and needed adjustments as the stock was too wide! The door handles were sunk into the sides to rectify things.

 

Peter

 

;

 

The Midland trains to Hellifield went via Blackburn and then the Chatfield line, not via Colne. So far as I am aware no Midland trains ran west of Colne. Even in the 1950s, I can remember catching trains from Skipton to Colne to see the grandparents in Nelson. The trains terminated at Colne and we either caught the bus or another train. The Midland service to Scotland from Liverpool went directly north to Blackburn, not via Victoria.

[Leander]

The Midland trains to Hellifield went via Blackburn and then the Chatfield line, not via Colne. So far as I am aware no Midland trains ran west of Colne. Even in the 1950s, I can remember catching trains from Skipton to Colne to see the grandparents in Nelson. The trains terminated at Colne and we either caught the bus or another train. The Midland service to Scotland from Liverpool went directly north to Blackburn, not via Victoria.

However, by the mid-1960s after local passenger services in the north west were dieselised, several Manchester services went beyond Colne to Skipton. I caught a DMU from Bolton on one occasion to go round Bolton and Skipton sheds and then to connect with the up Thames-Clyde Express at Skipton in what must have been 1965 or 1966.

[LNWR18901910]

The LNWR, the L&YR and the MR are my top-fave Pre-Grouping railway companies, so this should be interesting.