Plymouth's Hidden Railways

[pb_devon]

Just to clarify....RNAD Bullpoint ceased to exist in the early 1990s. At that time the site was merged with Devonport Dockyard/Naval Base. Access was created from Weston Mill Jetty, and the separate entrance from Barne Barton closed. The site is still in use for RN and dockyard activities, but no armament use.

Narrow gauge railway ceased about 1958, and the standard gauge branch OOU about 1985. I suspect nothing had travelled over the branch for some time before that.

[Fat Controller]

On 17/05/2019 at 14:39, AberDG said:

Reactivating this topic, having gone through my copy further, hopefully someone can help with more information on traffic to the following sidings/depot in their latter years (late 80s, very early 90s)

 

1) Victoria Wharf...rail traffic finished in 1991, but what was it and the wagons used? Probably delivered by open but unlikely to be China clay due to potential for contamination (loading looks like by bucket scoop only)?

 

2) M. Thomas Distribution...was in operation in 1990. Main traffics I understand were fertiliser by VGA/PWA and bricks in OCAs...but anything else and what wagon type???? I think the OAA used as a reach wagon in the LPG siding was also kept there (photo pg 166).

 

3) RNAD Bull Point, closed early 90s , but never seen any photos of traffic in those latter years (only early 80).

 

Interested to see what comes out of the woodwork.

 

Thanks,

John

M Thomas (Distribution) handled vehicles (mainly 'soft-skin' types) for the MoDA; These used Warwells and Warflats as appropriate. There are photos of both types on Paul Bartlett's site. Thomas's had depots at Bridgewater and Truro as well. Fertiliser was a staple (I believe all the sites had been UKF depots originally), but other commodities were dealt with, such as bulk orange juice at Bridgewater.

[AberDG]

Thanks PB that explains why I can only find class 25s on Bull Point trains.

 

Hi Brian, having had a look at those Mod photos on Paul’s site they are all 1982 which would seem to indicate that they are Falklands related. Did they deal with vehicles later on say late 80s, early 90s (Gulf war?).

 

Think you are right that the Thomas sites were ex UKF, perhaps they changed when UKF were bought by Kemira ?

 

Would  love to know what was on the traffic to Victoria Wharf??

 

Cheers,

John

[brianusa]

Victoria Wharves were used mainly by Coast Lines shipping company which provided quite a bit of traffic, mostly general merchandise, over the years including indeed china clay, presumably in bags.  Most of the trucks seen were vans with a few open wagons.  The tankers were dropped off earlier at the various fuel installations.  B4s did the honours before the advent of the diesels.

    Brian.

[AberDG]

Hi Brian, I have always thought that the Cattewater branch was a fascinating operation right from the days of steam, as you say, to its final end. For me it would be a class 08 meandering through different sidings with a few tanks.

 

I’ll investigate Coast Lines shipping further.

 

Thanks,

John

 

[pb_devon]

John,

I have now remembered that I have some images of wagons in Victoria Wharves in the modern era. I will dig them out and post in due course.

[Siberian Snooper]

There were a load of ex Dockyard wagons stored at Victoria Wharf after the yard railway packed up in the eighties, until they were moved to the  Plym Valley  Railway.

 

 

[pb_devon]

The wagons said to comprise the last freight to Victoria Wharves, thought to be in 1991, were VDA and VGA.

However for Brian's benefit, here is something from 19 October 1965.

[Fat Controller]

14 minutes ago, pb_devon said:

The wagons said to comprise the last freight to Victoria Wharves, thought to be in 1991, were VDA and VGA.

However for Brian's benefit, here is something from 19 October 1965.

A rare sight of a Palvan being gainfully employed. I wonder what's in those sacks?

It looks as though someone's keeping a tally on the counterweight of the crane; I hope no-one moves it before he's finished.

[steve W]

1 minute ago, Fat Controller said:

A rare sight of a Palvan being gainfully employed. I wonder what's in those sacks?

Says 'English China Clay' on the sacks

[AberDG]

Bagged China clay by the looks of things.

 

...and I guess the VGAs fit in with the picture on page 64, and I would think also with bagged clay?

 

I wondered with the picture of the bucket scoop in the picture on page 70 if the wagons might have been opens (sheeted?)....say Tiger POAs.....or I guess they could have used a temporary auger with hopper discharge wagons.

 

Cheers,

John

[Mallard60022]

There have been some really interesting books released in the recent past, about the Plymouth area. Having left in 1966, I have now learned just what I missed in my formative years there …. basically just 8 years!

Phil

Edited May 21, 2019 by Mallard60022

[Fat Controller]

39 minutes ago, AberDG said:

Bagged China clay by the looks of things.

 

...and I guess the VGAs fit in with the picture on page 64, and I would think also with bagged clay?

 

I wondered with the picture of the bucket scoop in the picture on page 70 if the wagons might have been opens (sheeted?)....say Tiger POAs.....or I guess they could have used a temporary auger with hopper discharge wagons.

 

Cheers,

John

Is it possible that the China Clay was being loaded on to rail there, having been brought in by road from a non-rail-connected site, somewhere in the Plymouth area?

Looking at the chap loading the bags reminded me of a job I had at Longport, Stoke-on-Trent, unloading VTG bogie vans laden with 60kg sacks of gypsum (for pottery moulds). The wagons had probably been quite neatly stacked before leaving Germany, but no-one thought to wrap them in plastic film. The effect of a wintertime crossing on the Zeebrugge- Harwich ferry can be imagined; we probably managed to recover 90% of the load with judicious use of a dustpan and brush.

[brianusa]

2 hours ago, Mallard60022 said:

There have been some really interesting books released in the recent past, about the Plymouth area. Having left in 1966, I have now learned just what I missed in my formative years there …. basically just 8 years!

Phil

 

Hi Phil, I left in 1963 and I have no concept of the diesel years other than what I have read and pictures that I have seen since.  Fortunately I spent a fair amount of time around this area around the late forties, early fifties as it was within cycling range of home.  Trouble with that is that I wasn't up to the nitty gritty about what went on there at the time.  Sure I knew the difference between an M7 and a B4, but apart from that not much else.  One big regret is that I never got to see a horse train on the P & D except for one in the late forties by the rather ornate bridge over the Plym, where there was a short siding with some trucks on it at the time.  Memory works well, sometimes!

      Brian.

[brianusa]

2 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

Is it possible that the China Clay was being loaded on to rail there, having been brought in by road from a non-rail-connected site, somewhere in the Plymouth area?

Looking at the chap loading the bags reminded me of a job I had at Longport, Stoke-on-Trent, unloading VTG bogie vans laden with 60kg sacks of gypsum (for pottery moulds). The wagons had probably been quite neatly stacked before leaving Germany, but no-one thought to wrap them in plastic film. The effect of a wintertime crossing on the Zeebrugge- Harwich ferry can be imagined; we probably managed to recover 90% of the load with judicious use of a dustpan and brush.

 

A lot of good stuff on here which has expanded belatedly, my knowledge of this area!  It looks to me that the guy is unloading rather than loading although why he's just dumping them on the ground instead of onto a truck or something is a good question, or why it was on the ground to be loaded?  Those two have a lot of work on their hands regardless!

    Thanks to all contributors to the topic.

              Brian.

[Gordon A]

Looks like the bags are on a pallet of some sort?

 

Gordon A

[PhilJ W]

1 hour ago, Gordon A said:

Looks like the bags are on a pallet of some sort?

 

Gordon A

And there is some sort of sling over the bags. Being transferred from shore to ship perhaps? (In the book it says that the dock was used for the export of china clay.)

[Siberian Snooper]

6 hours ago, PhilJ W said:

And there is some sort of sling over the bags. Being transferred from shore to ship perhaps? (In the book it says that the dock was used for the export of china clay.)

 

They still export clay, it comes down from Lee Moor in lorries.

 

 

 

 

[pb_devon]

47 minutes ago, Siberian Snooper said:

 

They still export clay, it comes down from Lee Moor in lorries.

 

 

 

 

Indeed, you can always tell when a ship is in dock by all the HGV tipper trucks trundling into Plymouth from the east.

[brianusa]

This sounds as though there will soon be demands for reinstatement of the LMT!

"All those lorries, etc, etc."

    Brian

Edited May 22, 2019 by brianusa