jonny777 Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 I have searched for this topic and although it may have been discussed previously, I can't find any obvious reference. Does anyone know how many (if any) Bulleid Pacifics in original condition survived to the end of steam on the SR or at least into 1966? If there were any, does anyone have the numbers, please? (Apologies for the rather contrived title, but I was trying to avoid the dreaded "un-rebuilt" description, which seems to have fallen foul of the pedantic police; although it actually is a concise and well understood term for these locos - even if technically incorrect. ) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
asmay2002 Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 I have searched for this topic and although it may have been discussed previously, I can't find any obvious reference. Does anyone know how many (if any) Bulleid Pacifics in original condition survived to the end of steam on the SR or at least into 1966? If there were any, does anyone have the numbers, please? (Apologies for the rather contrived title, but I was trying to avoid the dreaded "un-rebuilt" description, which seems to have fallen foul of the pedantic police; although it actually is a concise and well understood term for these locos - even if technically incorrect. ) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_SR_West_Country_and_Battle_of_Britain_class_locomotives Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 (edited) (Apologies for the rather contrived title, but I was trying to avoid the dreaded "un-rebuilt" description, which seems to have fallen foul of the pedantic police; although it actually is a concise and well understood term for these locos - even if technically incorrect. ) You aint kidding, I recently metaphorically had my fingers rapped by pedants for saying that on a full size railway fb page, they should be called 'originals' ( that's my old pair of jeans !!). Well excuse me!! But casting my mind back ( 50 years !!) to my many visits to 9E, it was 34102 the only one doing the last honours, 34023 bought privately and kept for specials, and 34002,34015, 34019, & 34057 being cannibalized, and providing spares for both. I believe 34006 was kept at Salisbury at the same time. Edited October 8, 2017 by bike2steam Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonny777 Posted October 8, 2017 Author Share Posted October 8, 2017 You aint kidding, I recently metaphorically had my fingers rapped by pedants for saying that on a full size railway fb page, they should be called 'originals' ( that's my old pair of jeans !!). Well excuse me!! But casting my mind back ( 50 years !!) to my many visits to 9E, it was 34102 the only one doing the last honours, 34023 bought privately and kept for specials, and 34002,34015, 34019, & 34057 being cannibalized, and providing spares for both. I believe 34006 was kept at Salisbury at the same time. That is great, thanks. I find it strange that people get so worked up about this. If I said that the locos in original condition were not rebuilt, presumably that would be historically correct? However, to say they were unrebuilt rather than not rebuilt seems to be a step too far for many people. Fortunately, my grasp of the language does not give me the power to worry over such minor technicalities. A photo I have of a loco in original condition, in the last weeks would seem to be 34102 - so I'm happy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pH Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 From an article titled "Last of the 'Spam Cans'" in 'Steam Days' for May 2002: Unrebuilt engines in service in January 1966: 34002/06/15/19/23/38/41/57/64/66/76/79/86/102 (14 in total) Unrebuilt engines in service in January 1967: 34002/06/15/19/23/57/102 (7 in total) Unrebuilt engines in service on 1967/07/09 (last day of SR steam): 34023/102 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RFS Posted October 8, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 8, 2017 BRDatabase is an excellent reference - http://www.brdatabase.info/index.php Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewartingram Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 Nonrebuilt as opposed to unrebuilt? Stewart Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 Best places for info on Bulleid Pacifics on the 'net is the Bulleid Society website. http://www.bulleidsociety.org/OVS_Bulleid/OVSB_Light_Pacifics.html And for general Southern Railway/Region info then the SEMG website is a goldmine. http://www.semgonline.com/home.html Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PhilH Posted October 8, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 8, 2017 Re what to call 'em....just call them flat tops, it was good enough for us nippers during the many hours we used to spend on Campbell Road bridge at Eastleigh some 55+ years ago. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
david.hill64 Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 I am now going through the process of building an 'unrebuilt' WC, and it's quite obvious that even the 'unrebuilt' ones were rebuilt from their original condition, so calling them Spam Cans seems OK. But what would you then call the ones without the chain drive valve gear? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 I am now going through the process of building an 'unrebuilt' WC, and it's quite obvious that even the 'unrebuilt' ones were rebuilt from their original condition, so calling them Spam Cans seems OK. But what would you then call the ones without the chain drive valve gear? Er - chainless !? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted October 9, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 9, 2017 A photo I have of a loco in original condition, in the last weeks would seem to be 34102 - so I'm happy. Lapford is also a rather special loco, because during the West Country (!) floods in the early 60s it found itself at New Street, having come via the Lickey on a Pines Express, probably the first service visit by the class. Precise date not recalled, as I’m currently on an ICE en route Hildesheim - Frankfurt! 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 (edited) Lapford is also a rather special loco, because during the West Country (!) floods in the early 60s it found itself at New Street, having come via the Lickey on a Pines Express, probably the first service visit by the class. Precise date not recalled, as I’m currently on an ICE en route Hildesheim - Frankfurt! I'm sure I've seen a clip of 34102 on the 'Pines' climbing the Lickey - but can I find it, naa. But she was a bit of a wanderer, in 1963 she was one of three light pacifics that made it to Nottingham Victoria on footie specials for the FA cup Forest v Saints game, the other two ( I think) were Dorchester, and Lord Beaverbrook. Edited October 9, 2017 by bike2steam 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PhilH Posted October 9, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 9, 2017 Lapford is also a rather special loco, because during the West Country (!) floods in the early 60s it found itself at New Street, having come via the Lickey on a Pines Express, probably the first service visit by the class. Precise date not recalled, as I’m currently on an ICE en route Hildesheim - Frankfurt! https://www.pinterest.com/pin/428827195743818862/ 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TravisM Posted October 9, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 9, 2017 When I lived in Hampshire, at a local railway society, there was a discussion about 34102 Lapford and one member said that when it was withdrawn, there was already a preservation group interested in it but outbid by Buttergieg's. After talking with BR, it seems that they were happy to let Buttergieg resell it to them and Buttergieg were happy to oblige (obviously they were going to make some money with the added bonus of not have to do any work plus saving the cost of the gas). The agreement was that they had to pay a deposit and then pay the balance within a agreed time, so when 34102 arrived at the scrap yard, it was put to one side but there's a but. From what the member said, Buttergieg asked numerous times for the deposit and when it finally arrived, it bounced! So they lost patience and the rest they say is history. Julian Sprott Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
71000 Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 (edited) I have searched for this topic and although it may have been discussed previously, I can't find any obvious reference. Does anyone know how many (if any) Bulleid Pacifics in original condition survived to the end of steam on the SR or at least into 1966? If there were any, does anyone have the numbers, please? (Apologies for the rather contrived title, but I was trying to avoid the dreaded "un-rebuilt" description, which seems to have fallen foul of the pedantic police; although it actually is a concise and well understood term for these locos - even if technically incorrect. ) Bulleids MERCHANT NAVY CLASS All the 30 Merchant Navy class were rebuilt. The last to be rebuilt being 35028 Clan Line rebuilt 21/8/59 to 24/10/59. Withdrawn July 1967 WEST COUNTRY - BATTLE OF BRITAIN CLASS Locomotives NOT rebuilt and Withdrawal date. 1966 and 1967 withdrawals highlighted. 34002 Salisbury. Withdrawn April 1967 34006 Bude. Withdrawn 19/3/67 34007 Wadebridge. Withdrawn 7/10/65 34011 Tavistock. Withdrawn 30/11/63 34015 Exmouth. Withdrawn 16/4/67 34019 Bideford. Withdrawn 19/3/67 34020 Seaton. Withdrawn September 1964 34023 Blackmore Vale. Withdrawn 9/7/67 34030 Watersmeet. Withdrawn September 1964 34033 Chard. Withdrawn 19/12/65 34035 Shaftesbury. Withdrawn 8/6/63 34038 Lynton. Withdrawn 12/6/66 34041 Wilton. Withdrawn 23/1/66 34043 Combe Martin. Withdrawn 8/6/63 34049 Anti-Aircraft Command. Withdrawn 13/3/66 34051 Winston Churchill. Withdrawn 19/5/65 34054 Lord Beaverbrook. Withdrawn September 1964 34055 Fighter Pilot. Withdrawn 22/6/63 34057 Biggin Hill. Withdrawn 7/5/67 34061 73 Squadron. Withdrawn 16/8/64 34063 229 Squadron. Withdrawn 15/8/65 34064 Fighter Command. Withdrawn 22/5/66 34065 Hurricane. Withdrawn April 1964 34066 Spitfire. Withdrawn 10/9/66 34067 Tangmere. Withdrawn 16/11/63 34068 Kenley. Withdrawn 7/12/63 34069 Hawkinge. Withdrawn 23/11/63 34070 Manston. Withdrawn 5/9/64 34072 257 Squadron. Withdrawn 25/10/64 34073 249 Squadron. Withdrawn 28/6/64 34074 46 Squadron. Withdrawn 15/6/63 34075 264 Squadron. Withdrawn April 1964 by WR 34076 41 Squadron. Withdrawn 9/1/66 34078 222 Squadron. Withdrawn September 1964 by WR 34079 141 Squadron. Withdrawn 27/2/66 34080 74 Squadron. Withdrawn September 1964 by WR 34081 92 Squadron. Withdrawn 16/8/64 34083 605 Squadron. Withdrawn 8/8/64 34084 253 Squadron. Withdrawn 3/10/65 34086 219 Squadron. Withdrawn 25/6/66 34091 Weymouth. Withdrawn September 1964 34092 City of Wells. Withdrawn 29/11/64 34094 Mortehoe. Withdrawn August 1964 34099 Lynmouth. Withdrawn November 1964 34102 Lapford. Withdrawn 9/7/67 34103 Calstock. Withdrawn September 1965 34105 Swanage. Withdrawn 4/10/64 34106 Lydford. Withdrawn September 1964 34107 Blandford Forum. Withdrawn September 1964 34110 66 Squadron. Withdrawn 22/11/63 Edited November 28, 2017 by 71000 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
71000 Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 (edited) I am now going through the process of building an 'unrebuilt' WC, and it's quite obvious that even the 'unrebuilt' ones were rebuilt from their original condition, so calling them Spam Cans seems OK. But what would you then call the ones without the chain drive valve gear? David. The locomotives that were NOT rebuilt kept the Bulleid "Chain Drive". Although numerous alterations were made to locos in Original condition, the alterations were mainly minor improvements to reduce problems, and increase reliability. But this DID NOT extend to replacing the Bulleid valve gear. Edited November 28, 2017 by 71000 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
david.hill64 Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 (edited) David. The locomotives that were NOT rebuilt kept the Bulleid "Chain Drive". Although numerous alterations were made to locos in Original condition, the alterations were mainly minor improvements to reduce problems, and increase reliability. But this DID NOT extend to replacing the Bulleid valve gear. See "Basingstoke in OO 1958-67" in "Modelling real locations" here on RMweb. The Duke 71000 I know this: hence my description of those without chain valve gear (I can't spell Walschaerts) to distinguish them from those that retained the chain drive and the air-smoothed casing. My point is that all locos were modified/rebuilt in some fashion: slidebar supports changed, ashpans changed, casing changed, cabs changed, tender raves cut back. Even with all of these changes these are often described as unrebuilt. The OP notes the pedantic police object to the use of the word unrebuilt which implies original. So I made the light hearted suggestion that we could describe the ones with air smoothed casings as 'Spam Cans' but what would you then call the ones usually referred to as 'rebuilt'? Edited October 11, 2017 by david.hill64 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted October 12, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 12, 2017 Unspammed Cans? Unrebuilt and Rebuilt are in my view perfectly adequate terms for this use; the unrebuilt locos carried many modifications and alterations applied to some or all of them since their original introduction, but these were modifications and nothing approaching the fundamental rethinking of the rebuilt locos, which were of a radically different appearance and specification to the original design. The difference is much greater than that between, say, an unrebuilt and a rebuilt Royal Scot, where the only real change was the boiler and draughting. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
71000 Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 (edited) I know this: hence my description of those without chain valve gear (I can't spell Walschaerts) to distinguish them from those that retained the chain drive and the air-smoothed casing. My point is that all locos were modified/rebuilt in some fashion: slidebar supports changed, ashpans changed, casing changed, cabs changed, tender raves cut back. Even with all of these changes these are often described as unrebuilt. The OP notes the pedantic police object to the use of the word unrebuilt which implies original. So I made the light hearted suggestion that we could describe the ones with air smoothed casings as 'Spam Cans' but what would you then call the ones usually referred to as 'rebuilt'? As the term "Spam Can" was a WW2 reference to a basically then new style of food production, and the other new tinned product was "Bully Beef". Possibly the rebuilds should be called "Bully Beef". Depending how you looked at them, the rebuilds were rather Beefy looking ! Edited November 28, 2017 by 71000 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted October 13, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 13, 2017 (edited) Non-rebuilt is the best I can come up with, defining the loco as having not been rebuilt at all (post-1961) or not yet having been rebuilt once the process was under way (1957-1961). By definition no loco could be so described until a rebuilt loco existed. "Unrebuilt" is nonsensical unless one is referring to the planned future condition of General Steam Navigation. "Original" isn't correct for locos after about 1952, by which time pretty much all of them had received some modifications. "Air-smoothed" is OK but doesn't differentiate between a loco as built in 1946 and one in 1966 condition. John Edited October 13, 2017 by Dunsignalling Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lapford34102 Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 Any retaining their original configuration were almost universally known as Spamcans by those who worked on them. At the end 23 lived a somewhat pampered existence though I thought it was destined for the National Collection. Lapford was a collection of bits all trying to move in the same direction at the same time which it actually did with some success. If you want to model it accurately for the period the clack valve cover needs opening, the valves had a tendency to get stuck and someone needed to get up there with a suitable implement and whack them. A ladder was the preferred method......... Why were Spam's kept going till the end. I was told axle loading but no-one seem to be able to explain where this might apply, S+D possibly ? Stu Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivercider Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 Any retaining their original configuration were almost universally known as Spamcans by those who worked on them. Why were Spam's kept going till the end. I was told axle loading but no-one seem to be able to explain where this might apply, S+D possibly ? Stu I thought the axle loading restriction applied to routes in the West Country, the Barnstaple/Ilfracombe route for one, (the restriction to Plymouth via Meldon having been previously lifted), cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bibby Line Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 Just a tad off topic, but a question to Phil. Did you prefer to drive the originals or the rebuilds ? Eddie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now