fitting a dcc ready socket?

[antonyvw]

Newbee questions.

Im aware that modern models come either ddc ready or dcc fitted. Older models can be addapted by fitting a dcc module. My question is - is it possible to fit one of the dcc ready sockets to older locos? If so do they require as much wiring as fitting a dcc chip that has the wires attached? And obviously which is the better way of doing it? (fitting the socket for a plug in chip or a wired chip?).

 

thanks

Antony

[newbryford]

Newbee questions.

Im aware that modern models come either ddc ready or dcc fitted. Older models can be addapted by fitting a dcc module. My question is - is it possible to fit one of the dcc ready sockets to older locos? If so do they require as much wiring as fitting a dcc chip that has the wires attached? And obviously which is the better way of doing it? (fitting the socket for a plug in chip or a wired chip?).

 

thanks

Antony

 

There is a similar amount of work involved in fitting an 8-pin socket or hard-wiring a decoder.

The advantage of the socket is that you swap decoders easily if required.

 

Cheers,

Mick

[RFS]

Older locos were not designed with DCC sockets in mind, so it will be down to the individual loco as to whether there is space for both a socket and a decoder. 

[Ron Ron Ron]

Some older locos without sockets have barely enough space to fit in a "hard wired" decoder as it is.

Installing a DCC socket may be nigh on impossible in a few of those.

[Nigelcliffe]

Some older locos without sockets have barely enough space to fit in a "hard wired" decoder as it is.

Installing a DCC socket may be nigh on impossible in a few of those.

 

Unless willing to start hacking space into models to fit the decoder.  Which in turn depends on access to suitable tools, a bit of knowledge on how to use them, and a willingness to cut into a model.

There are very few models which approach "impossible", just various degrees of difficulty. 

 

 

- Nigel

[Suzie]

There is often a remarkable amount of space in older models, especially diesels and tenders. If there is no lighting to worry about you just need four wires - two to the pickups and two to the motor.

 

At first when fitting decoders to older locos I fitted a 9-jst socket which is really easy with flying leads and takes no space at all - but decoder support for this socket is now very limited with pretty much just TCS and Lenz supporting it, so now I fit the Zimo ADAPLU PCB which includes a PluX-22 socket so that I can plug in a MX600p12 decoder, and still have the option to wire a speaker and plug in a sound decoder later.

 

Don't be tempted to fit the old NEM652 8-pin socket. As well as being inflexible with not much functionality, it is very bulky and generally requires a decoder with wires and a plug on to be accommodated. You can get 21-pin sockets as well such as the Zimo ADAMTC but this does limit you to more expensive decoders if you want something from a quality make like Zimo - there is no MX600d so you will need the 21-pin MX632d instead.

[tender]

-- so now I fit the Zimo ADAPLU PCB which includes a PluX-22 socket so that I can plug in a MX600p12 decoder, 

 

 

Ouch, thats more expensive than the decoder! Unless your going to be continually swapping decoders i'd just hard wire a decoder with flying leads.

[RAF96]

I use these NEM652 sockets...

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/gallery/image/70338-103-2230/ 

thus

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/gallery/image/79022-0-4-0-decoder-installation2/

Rob

Edited October 9, 2017 by RAFHAAA96

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

... And obviously which is the better way of doing it? (fitting the socket for a plug in chip or a wired chip?)...

It doesn't come much simpler for an older model with only motor control required, to use a wired decoder: trim off all the aux wires, then solder the black and red wires to the pick ups, orange and grey wires to the motor brush terminals. Typically the least space consuming method as well, and very flexible in terms of decoder placement which is always an asset if the model has either or both of an awkward layout, or is packed solid with metal. Also many older models will benefit significantly from the integrity of all wired solder jointed conduction, replacing flaky contacts between various pieces of metal (as found on much Hornby and Lima product, which will typically be the dominant brands of 'older models' of the average UK OO owner).

 

Once practised at this you may well look at many a manufacturer's choice of decoder socket placement and think 'I can do much better than that' and proceed to remove their work and hardwire...

[Suzie]

Hardwiring a decoder is a real bore if:-

 

1. The decoder turns out to be rubbish and needs to be replaced with a good one.

 

2. The loco turns out to be rubbish and you want to reuse the decoder.

 

3. Smoke comes out of the decoder and it needs to be a) returned under guarantee or b) replaced with a good decoder.

 

4. You like the loco so much you want to add extra lighting.

 

5. You like the loco so much you want to add sound.

 

6. (the most likely) something is not working so you need to remove the decoder to a) test the loco or b) test the decoder.

 

Fitting a socket is just the sensible way to go, and fitting a sensible socket is even more sensible!

[Vecchio]

If I am experimenting with decoders to find out what I like I use a loco which already has a socket.

If I know my decoder I do not bother to fit a socket. And if it is a proper decoder the chances that smoke comes out are very limited... Installers error is of course one of these chances...

Using Zimo normally you have enough channels free also for lights and if I use a MX600 I make the ground lead on it before I put it on its sticky pad in the loco.

Vecchio, supporting the Austrian industry

Edited October 9, 2017 by Vecchio

[Suzie]

If you really want an easy socket fit the JST-9 that comes with a Lenz Gold and some TCS decoders. Not very standard nowadays but it is as easy to install as a hardwire (the socket comes with wires on!) and you get four lighting functions.

 

While the Lenz Gold might not be as good as a Zimo it is not a bad decoder and if you are keen you can add stay alive and a sound add-on via connectors on the decoder. 

[Tony Burgess]

Hardwiring a decoder is a real bore if:-

 

1. The decoder turns out to be rubbish and needs to be replaced with a good one.

 

2. The loco turns out to be rubbish and you want to reuse the decoder.

 

3. Smoke comes out of the decoder and it needs to be a) returned under guarantee or b) replaced with a good decoder.

 

4. You like the loco so much you want to add extra lighting.

 

5. You like the loco so much you want to add sound.

 

6. (the most likely) something is not working so you need to remove the decoder to a) test the loco or b) test the decoder.

 

Fitting a socket is just the sensible way to go, and fitting a sensible socket is even more sensible!

 

A very good summary of taking the more time-consuming route compared with "hard wiring".

 

I'm scratch building a loco using a modified Mainline Class 45 chassis, and wanting to use a NEM652 8-pin socket to make it DCC Ready using the standard plug for a loco with headlights at both ends (ie plug linking pins 1,8,2 and pins 4,5,6).

 

I can't quite get my head around it!  If I was just on DC I could just wire the front & rear lighting to sockets 2 & 6, using diodes.  But with a chip fitted, I need to use sockets 6 & 7 for the front and 2 & 7 for the rear.  ie simply wiring as if DC only will not satisfy DCC.

 

I have therefore been searching for a standard wiring diagram because having no idea what goes on inside the decoder I want to be sure I don't toast a decoder when I first test one.  With NMRA having set up the DCC standards, I had hoped to find a basic wiring diagram (in USA a schematic?) within their technical papers.

 

Could anyone help point me in the right direction?  I'd be very grateful!

[Nigelcliffe]

A very good summary of taking the more time-consuming route compared with "hard wiring".

 

I'm scratch building a loco using a modified Mainline Class 45 chassis, and wanting to use a NEM652 8-pin socket to make it DCC Ready using the standard plug for a loco with headlights at both ends (ie plug linking pins 1,8,2 and pins 4,5,6).

 

I can't quite get my head around it!  If I was just on DC I could just wire the front & rear lighting to sockets 2 & 6, using diodes.  But with a chip fitted, I need to use sockets 6 & 7 for the front and 2 & 7 for the rear.  ie simply wiring as if DC only will not satisfy DCC.

 

I have therefore been searching for a standard wiring diagram because having no idea what goes on inside the decoder I want to be sure I don't toast a decoder when I first test one.  With NMRA having set up the DCC standards, I had hoped to find a basic wiring diagram (in USA a schematic?) within their technical papers.

 

Could anyone help point me in the right direction?  I'd be very grateful!

 

may be quicker for you to copy what's on a commercial loco's circuit board  ? 

 

Inside a decoder, the function outputs are "low" (or 0v) when active, and high when inactive. The positive is the common wire (blue), at decoder running voltage (approximately track voltage minus 1v), so assume around 13 to 15v depending on control system in use. 

[Suzie]

A very good summary of taking the more time-consuming route compared with "hard wiring".

 

I'm scratch building a loco using a modified Mainline Class 45 chassis, and wanting to use a NEM652 8-pin socket to make it DCC Ready using the standard plug for a loco with headlights at both ends (ie plug linking pins 1,8,2 and pins 4,5,6).

 

I can't quite get my head around it!  If I was just on DC I could just wire the front & rear lighting to sockets 2 & 6, using diodes.  But with a chip fitted, I need to use sockets 6 & 7 for the front and 2 & 7 for the rear.  ie simply wiring as if DC only will not satisfy DCC.

 

I have therefore been searching for a standard wiring diagram because having no idea what goes on inside the decoder I want to be sure I don't toast a decoder when I first test one.  With NMRA having set up the DCC standards, I had hoped to find a basic wiring diagram (in USA a schematic?) within their technical papers.

 

Could anyone help point me in the right direction?  I'd be very grateful!

 

Try this:-

 

 

If you don't want the lighting to be functional on DC just leave out the 1N4001 diodes. Connect the B, W and Y wires to the socket pins where the blue, white and yellow wires go.

 

Adjust the resistor values to suit how bright you want the LEDs to be.

 

If using bulbs rather than LEDs replace the LEDs with 1N4001 diodes and the resistors with the bulbs.

[RAF96]

I can't quite get my head around it! If I was just on DC I could just wire the front & rear lighting to sockets 2 & 6, using diodes. But with a chip fitted, I need to use sockets 6 & 7 for the front and 2 & 7 for the rear. ie simply wiring as if DC only will not satisfy DCC.

 

I have therefore been searching for a standard wiring diagram because having no idea what goes on inside the decoder I want to be sure I don't toast a decoder when I first test one. With NMRA having set up the DCC standards, I had hoped to find a basic wiring diagram (in USA a schematic?) within their technical papers.

 

Could anyone help point me in the right direction? I'd be very grateful!

DC is + one way and - the other and the diodes in your DC lighting circuit cater for when the polarity is switched to reverse the loco.

 

DCC is essentially AC, with the polarity swapping direction all the time so your diodes are of not much use here, hence the in loco DCC wiring results in a steady DC output from the decoder bridge rectifier bit onto the positive blue wire and each light circuit or function is switched on/off by way of the negative wires (white, yellow, green, purple, ad infintum on some decoders it seems.

 

Once you have got the basic circuit in your head DCC lights are just like DC lights only wired to avoid the alternating current bit of DCC.

 

When you put the DC blanking plate back in all you are doing is emulating your old DC methodology by tapping into the motor to pickup link on each side left/right rail. I.e. when you go this way, these lights are on and when you go that way, those lights are on.

 

If you want detailed wiring diagrams go to Bromsgrove Models projects page where some serious prototype lighting is emulated using slightly more complex wiring methods than mere mortals use for simple directional lights.

 

Rob

Edited February 25, 2018 by RAFHAAA96

[Tony Burgess]

Thanks, guys.

 

As I thought about it I realised that there was a potentially simpler route that I could live with.  Rather than put the necessary circuitry on the loco PCB, why not make up a special "Blanking Plug" for when the loco is on DC?  The same as Suzie's, I guess, with the diodes eg 1N4001 on the Blanking Plug.

 

If the photo & diagram upload work OK, you will see what I've done (though my soldering was pretty poor..).  It seems to work OK on the termporary lash-up board, giving me confidence to continue with the loco wiring.

 

A possible disadvantage is that the Blanking Plug MUST be inserted Pin1 to Pin1 for it to work correctly.  Especially as I am thinking of using Pin3 - Green - AUX1 for the driver's end cab light.

 

RAFHAAA96, it's ages since I used Bromsgrove Models and I'll certainly check to see what they have to offer.

 

So thanks again to you both.  My projects always take ages, and if I toast a chip because of the 'Blanking Plug + diodes' being incorrect when on the loco, I'll post again with a warning.

 

EDIT 20 March 2018 -

On the wiring diagram I had the 'Yellow' & 'White' headlight wires labelled the wrong way round - Pin6 White is for the front headlights, Pin2 Yellow for the rear.  Diagram now corrected.

Also I've run tests on the made-up board and everything seems to be working OK on DC supply with two makes of decoder.  One of these has provision for a stay-alive capacitor, and - YES - another question answered in that the capacitor is "in circuit" at least as far as the lights are concerned when on DC.  So I'm hoping that it also supports feed to the motor when on DC, to assist the loco through eg dirty track.

Edited March 20, 2018 by Tony Burgess

[Sir TophamHatt]

Some good advice here, especially in the first two posts.

 

I hard wired nearly 100% of my DC trains because in many, there simply wasn't space. I also figured out fairly late that I could have wired in a socket but after relooking at some of the photos I took, I see there was barely space as they were.

 

The trains won't have lights or sound so there's little chance of me wanting to swap the decoder.

 

I don't plan on selling them either, and don't reckon they'll go wrong. I used a mix of Zimo and Lenz decoders, which have all been fine. I did use a couple of Digitrax ones because there were two (Hornby Stepney and Bachmann Thomas Emily) that could barely fit those tiny ones, let alone something bigger.

 

Out of about 10 trains, 10 have worked fine. I had to swap the polarity on a few but that's not much hassle.

 

I'm a little annoyed that Bachmann is re-tooling their 170. I can't particluarly fault the current model but after fitting Express Models lights and chipped (hardwired) mine, I'll feel a bit down-beat if the new one is loads better. From the release so far, I think I'm safe.

 

But that's why I'm holding out on a 158 - I want the new tooled one (although the £229 price I saw puts me off!).

[Tony Burgess]

When I looked on the Bromsgrove Models website I found they had ceased trading.  I never found the wiring diagrams!

[RAF96]

When I looked on the Bromsgrove Models website I found they had ceased trading.  I never found the wiring diagrams!

http://www.bromsgrovemodels.co.uk/decoderinstallation4mm.htm

[Tony Burgess]

http://www.bromsgrovemodels.co.uk/decoderinstallation4mm.htm

 

Many thanks - this link worked well and a quick look over one or two projects shows what a wealth of advice is in this resource.