NoelG Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 (edited) Perhaps its just me. I am a techie. I can see on paper Z21 a good flexible system and supports many buses, but I am so disappointed with the driving experience primarily because of 'touch screen' U/I on iPhone or iPad. Have just plugged a wired Multimaus into the X-Bus to get around the touch screen issue but this cab about as intuitive to set up and use as a cat flap in an elephant house. I was so looking forward to getting my teeth into it and was prepared for change, many of my pals have and love Z21. For precision shunting you just can't beat physical buttons for precise and immediate throttle control. NCE is not the issue here, it is not perfect and it has its UI issues too but when it first arrived a few years ago intuitively I had it out of the box, hooked up and running trains in a few minutes without the need to read any manuals nor any time consuming setups. Ok its not wireless but the dog bone pro-cab ergonomics seem to suit my one handed eyes off display driving, watching only the trains instead of display screen. I have spend hours playing with the iOS apps and attempting to relearn to drive with the apps touch screen UI, but its just impossible to reliably shunt and automatically uncouple wagons fitted with jaded couplings over uncoupling magnets. It just doesn't respond precisely when I ask it to and looming away from the loco to check my finger is on the touch screen throttle slider is a real downside. I'll give it another few more hours trying tomorrow. I can see the merits of wifi using phones so folks can interoperate trains, especially in the club, or visitors to home layout but for me anyway it fails to do its core function. drive and shunt trains! Here's hoping. Edited March 20, 2019 by NoelG Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted March 20, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 20, 2019 I think it’s more finding a case that allows you to easily grip the phone and operate knowing where your thumb/ finger is in relation to it intuitively. I use a couple of soft silicon cases off eBay for £4 on the iPhones but a couple of friends prefer a bigger 8” tablet as it suits their hand better for the sweep. I look at the longer setup time as worth it to avoid trying to remember what number does what on each sound loco. I certainly can’t hit the F buttons without looking on my NCE. I still have it as my backup and agree it’s well set out. I’d try adding guides to a touchscreen if you want by making up a card template that defines the limits of the slider. If you have old ones you only use for control you could use bits of tape to put reference points in the screen. I suppose how dry your skin is also affects the feedback and resistance you feel on the screen. I’ve now got three multimaus and I’d say 60% prefer them over the touchscreens for driving but they prefer the touchscreens for operating the points so we tend to have a mix in use 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoelG Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 Wasted more time this morning trying to get this piece of annoying clutter to do the basics. A classic case of added gewhizz frills but missing the target for its basic core functional requirements. Arrrghhh!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
terryj Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 had my z21 (the white one ) for about 12 months i love using it and my 6 year old grandson can use it as well i love the fact that we can have a pad each and if i see something is about to happen i can stop everything dead in an instant Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Kettlewell Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 I love my Z21, but there again I don't do much shunting. When I do want to do a bit of shunting, I use the wireless Multi-maus. It works for me and seems a good combination of some smart screen-based functionality and the tactility of the Multi-maus. Cheers … Alan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpendle Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 Hi, One more point in favour of the Z21 is it's method of 'consisting', or double heading, or banking. Rather than have to program CV's to match loco speeds and create a consist the Z21 will handle all that for you. To speed match locos you run them over a fixed length of track at 3 different speed steps (or more) and record their performance in the loco settings (traction control). You then create a new 'train' and add the loco's you want to the train. That's it. As an experiment I set two locos in a 'train' a foot apart and let them run round my layout, after a couple of circuits they were still a foot apart. Regards, John P 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted March 21, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 21, 2019 42 minutes ago, NoelG said: Wasted more time this morning trying to get this piece of annoying clutter to do the basics. A classic case of added gewhizz frills but missing the target for its basic core functional requirements. Arrrghhh!!! Noel I think your issue keeps coming back to the touchscreen, especially the speed slider, rather than the actual Z21. Like several have said there is a dial controller and it’s cheaper than a phone or tablet. The Z21 graphic icons are great for intuitive use, as opposed to remembering what function number does what, but do require you to look at the screen but I found on the NCE, Digitrains and Prodigy I had to look to see the buttons as they are small and clustered together. Being able to just have frequently used physical buttons would be great but it also means lots of function remapping on all decoders so the same things are in the same places to work with it. There isn’t a cut down throttle that has that as far as I know as the only ones with just eight F buttons are still crammed together. At WIMRAIL last weekend four of the eight had never used the Z21 before and were up and running in just a minute so it is pretty intuitive. Over the weekend the two WiFi multimaus were more popular for shunting but the touchscreens were more popular for the single sound loco as the brake was more controllable and easier to operate the whistles. We weren’t using kadees on that layout so didn’t need the shuffle to uncouple but on Lulworth I usually stop on the magnet tap reverse, click up a couple of speed steps then tap forward again and it’s done. On the locos equipped with ESU v4 chips I’ve just switched on the uncouple shuffle and tap that. On this loco it’s set to work on F19 with a coupling symbol. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Vecchio Posted March 21, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 21, 2019 What is the problem? This piece of clutter reads and programs all basic decoder parameters (CV1 to CV6) in one shot if you want. If you don't want photos of your engines - fine - give it a number. Easy to program, easy to handle. No need for complicated re-mapping of function keys. No need to learn 28 function - F key relations by heart. Walk around your layout - no cables, no need to point to any receiver. I love it. Vecchio Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoelG Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 34 minutes ago, PaulRhB said: Noel I think your issue keeps coming back to the touchscreen, especially the speed slider, rather than the actual Z21. Like several have said there is a dial controller and it’s cheaper than a phone or tablet. The Z21 graphic icons are great for intuitive use, as opposed to remembering what function number does what, but do require you to look at the screen but I found on the NCE, Digitrains and Prodigy I had to look to see the buttons as they are small and clustered together. Being able to just have frequently used physical buttons would be great but it also means lots of function remapping on all decoders so the same things are in the same places to work with it. There isn’t a cut down throttle that has that as far as I know as the only ones with just eight F buttons are still crammed together. At WIMRAIL last weekend four of the eight had never used the Z21 before and were up and running in just a minute so it is pretty intuitive. Over the weekend the two WiFi multimaus were more popular for shunting but the touchscreens were more popular for the single sound loco as the brake was more controllable and easier to operate the whistles. We weren’t using kadees on that layout so didn’t need the shuffle to uncouple but on Lulworth I usually stop on the magnet tap reverse, click up a couple of speed steps then tap forward again and it’s done. On the locos equipped with ESU v4 chips I’ve just switched on the uncouple shuffle and tap that. On this loco it’s set to work on F19 with a coupling symbol. Hi Paul thank you for your help. I have made some positive progress. I have the multimaus connected and have manually added a number of my locos to its memory using the 'New' option from the loco library arrow keys. I have been able to drive and even shunt kadee uncouple locos with the Multimaus. I tend not to use LokSound F12=Uncouple functions which triggers the kadee shuffle as its rather exaggerated and manual control allows me to back the loco just a mm enough to release the coupling enough for uncoupling or even delayed uncoupling without the backward forward shuffle or the need to move the wagon backwards. The Multimaus has saved the day. Yes I am still struggling to get the same level of control with the touch screen and yes I can see its advantages for labelled sound functions and inexpensive wireless cab. Unfortunately the Z21 refused point blank to address any of my CIE 121 class locos because it has a known issue with addresses in the range 120-127 (ie some confusion about thinking they are long addresses, etc). So I popped B121 (address 121) on the Z21 programme track, read the address back successfully which was read back as the correct 121, then wrote that address back to the loco using the Z21, and hey presto, it would now address and drive the loco with an address in the range 120-127 as long as Z21 had written the vales to the decoder. Bizarre but who cares why it now works. I'm a lot happier now than this morning. Will now use the iPad to set up the mnemonics and symbols for 20 sound locos (hope their is a copy or duplicate loco in the app). I downloaded the Windows version of the Z21 maintenance app to ensure I have the latest Z21 firmware and latest Multimaus firmware, but the app cannot find 192.168.0.111 even though the laptop top is on the Z21's wifi and I can ping it. Pity they don't have either an iOS version of the firmware updater tool, nor a mac version. Anyway good progress made today and I'm glad I didn't take a sledge hammer to the Z21 in fustraightion last evening. Will persists with more trials. As my new layout is a 14ftx2ft shunting layout designed for kadee uncoupling I suspect I may end up using the Multimaus and rather than the Z21 mobile app. But for 'roundie roundie' on my main layout the mobile app may prove useful instead of wired cabs especially for the sound function labelling but I'm still finding the touch screen reliability an issue. I can see its a good system, I think for a shunting layout I made my own mistake of lusting after new technology and 'touchscreen' (ie being a self confessed tech geek), but ones lives and learns. The Multimaus may well do nicely if I use the Z21 as a mere DCC controller with iPad for setting up and loading new locos. It would be nice if there was a way to transfer the loco fleet from the mobile app to the Multimaus library memory. Will persist with trying the mobile app on phone with the kadee uncoupling. Are there any other plug in cabs you might recommend for any of the Z21's buses? Thanks for your advice. Noel 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted March 21, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 21, 2019 (edited) Hi Noel Glad it’s helped, if you have a lokprogrammer you can reduce the shuffle easily as like you note it is a bit exaggerated. I halved the move times so it literally just eases back and the forward. No doubt you can do it with the cv’s but you’d have to search for which ones they are as it doesn’t tell you onscreen with the programmer. Page six to eleven of this shows the throttle options apart from WiFi https://www.z21.eu/media/Kwc_Basic_DownloadTag_Component/root-en-main_47-661-310-665-313-downloadTag-download/default/45d3330f/1536565785/z21-black-en.pdf Edited March 21, 2019 by PaulRhB Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Vecchio Posted March 21, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 21, 2019 " I tend not to use LokSound F12=Uncouple functions which triggers the kadee shuffle as its rather exaggerated and manual control allows me to back the loco just a mm enough to release the coupling enough for uncoupling or even delayed uncoupling without the backward forward shuffle or the need to move the wagon backwards" This is decoder related and not a Z21 problem. If you use a Zimo - Please have a look at CV 116 - where you can set the length of time the loco has to run back during the coupling movement. (Zimo manual small decoders -3.24 Configuration of Electric Uncouplers). Vecchio Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Kettlewell Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 Hi Noel, For copying loco data, there is a 'Duplicate' option at the bottom of the edit loco 'Data' screen. (In the new App). Glad you're getting on a bit better now. Cheers ... Alan 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIMorrison Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 Also remember that for many chips (Lenz and Zimo certainly) you can reduce the speed dramatically using the shunting function (F3) and direct control (F4) switches off the acceleration and braking. Both combined can make shunting very precise, especially with a Multimaus. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoelG Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 27 minutes ago, Vecchio said: " I tend not to use LokSound F12=Uncouple functions which triggers the kadee shuffle as its rather exaggerated and manual control allows me to back the loco just a mm enough to release the coupling enough for uncoupling or even delayed uncoupling without the backward forward shuffle or the need to move the wagon backwards" This is decoder related and not a Z21 problem. If you use a Zimo - Please have a look at CV 116 - where you can set the length of time the loco has to run back during the coupling movement. (Zimo manual small decoders -3.24 Configuration of Electric Uncouplers). Vecchio Sure I appreciate that's nothing to do with Z21 (ie because its the way the LokSound project was built), but my point in relation to the Z21 is not so much the Z21 hardware itself but the Z21 touch screen throttle app which makes it really difficult to control speed steps one by one (ie 1-28mode) when using kadee uncoupling magnets. I don't like the kadee shuffle as it is an exaggerated movement, looks awful and not prototypical, but by manual throttle control you can uncouple or arrange delayed uncoupling very subtly with the absolute minimum of loco movement and being visually more realistic. I had used WiThrottle via JMRI before linked to the other DCC system and I experienced the same control issues. At least now with the Multimaus I will be able to look only at the train, just think what I want it to do and the cab through tactile feedback will make it happen, held in one hand out of sight by my side leaving my other hand completely free to do other things like throw signal and point levers (Cobalt S-Levers), or as the big hand in the sky should anything need a nudge. It may just be me, but personally the touch screen throttle control just doesn't cut it for shunting, or at least not so far (ie Having to take my eyes off the train to shunt accurately). Its a pity somebody didn't invent some sort of physical throttle knob or button accessory that can plug into the 'Lightning' port of an iPhone or via Bluetooth that would liberate phone cabs from touch screen throttle inputs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted March 21, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 21, 2019 I’d wondered if you could use a resistive knob that clips on the side using the same contact method as the pens and stylus. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil S Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 This may frustrate you even more regarding library transfers to and from the multimaus .....I have on order, from abroad, an interface (usb based pc - expressnet central controller) which apparently also includes the ability to up and download the multimaus library .... due to arrive in a few weeks and other roconet commands added to the basic expressnet. [most such interfaces are pure expressnet] The predeccessor central unit ... the multicentralepro allowed transfer of loco libraries to/from pc, ... search ancient threads here for how much is transferred. The combination we used our Z21 for last year was for a 17m long g scale [modular] layout - normally (with the predeccessor MulticentralePro and blue/red multimauses) we relied on the displayed l/r graphic to know which way the more distant points were set, as we remotely uncoupled and ran round at each end, changing points a required by number [aided by sign language from the operator at the other end] ..... but then I added the android tablet with a plan view of the layout ( in 3 strips/modules to best fit the screen at once) ... and point changing/ route setting became a simple tap-tap-tap ... but still using the speed knob for speed control and functions. .simples as a meercat might say. [With the predessor MCP, we could use a cabled monitor / touch screen until windows10 decided the monitor was too old, and we had to revert to a mouse ... an iiyama model not supported by windows10] .. [but we never set this up for the linear g layout] with our skandi h0 layout - we and visitors can walk all round it ... wireless handsets make that easy .. but the cabled monitor meant a fixed place to return to for 1 operator ... the tablet(s) (1 recharging!) a new opportunity to try with the Z21 ...although the points/routes could still be set by maus. For those wanting push button speed control ... is this what the latest upgrade will allow by providing for the lenz (handsets?) it now supports?? Today, I also got the impression that, when readback works [not always if a stay alive or separate sound module is used, for example), it is working a lot faster than it did when I used it on a ZT511 or multimaus-with-rocomotion interface. ... but not bothering with readbackis is still faster when you don'tcare what was there before. [ i usually have a dedicated red multimaus and amplifier = no readback for programming/test or visitor operable loop on the skandilayout .... leaving the main trains running uninterrupted during programming. .. but today i was changing CVs 2-5 on a batch of locos to be used on a g scale shunting puzzle with cv5 down to 64 from 1-255 ] i still find the mulimaus shape most comfortable to hold and use single handed [ 2 hands if a small younger person] few lgb functions above 8 ... but growing on newer models Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
43078shildoncountydurham Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 Opps just bought one Regards Craig 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoelG Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 29 minutes ago, 43078shildoncountydurham said: Opps just bought one Regards Craig Don't worry. I'm sure like others you will like it and get on with it. I just made the mistake of choosing a system that uses touch screen throttle control for a shunting layout depending on precise positioning over kadee uncoupling magnets witch touchscreen does not do well. The Z21 is a super piece of hardware with very flexible bus interfaces and interoperability with other cabs. My only real issue was with touchscreen throttle control which the physical Multimaus cab enabled me to avoid. Happy days. Only other minor snag was a firmware bug where the Z21 thinks loco addresses in the range 100-127 are long addresses instead of NMRA spec of short addresses. One of my locos had a short address of 121 which the roco was unable to address until I reprogrammed the address. I'm sure you will be happy with your Z21, they are popular here in the club. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoelG Posted March 22, 2019 Share Posted March 22, 2019 As the Multimaus Cab has proven a success I have one of these 10764 controllers on the way for only £50 to replace the Z21 hardware. Looks like a tidy little DCC system for a small shunting layout costing in total less than £120 (ie eBay prices way lower than RRP). https://www.roco.cc/en/product/5217-0-0-0-0-0-0-004001-0/products.html https://www.roco.cc/doc/idimages/def2/5217.jpg Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted March 22, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 22, 2019 (edited) I have recently upgraded to a Z21 and I have found it to be superb. I have gone from Lenz LH100 which I still use for occupancy to DR5000 then DR5000 + Wifi Multimaus to Z21 + Wifi Multimaus. I have also have the Roco app on a Samsung Tablet & a Motorola 'phone and found it to be easy to use, although for the finest control, I find the Maus is still tops, absolutely ideal for shunting. BTW on a Z21 what exactly is the sniffer port for? Edited March 22, 2019 by melmerby Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junctionmad Posted March 22, 2019 Share Posted March 22, 2019 (edited) 11 hours ago, NoelG said: Don't worry. I'm sure like others you will like it and get on with it. I just made the mistake of choosing a system that uses touch screen throttle control for a shunting layout depending on precise positioning over kadee uncoupling magnets witch touchscreen does not do well. The Z21 is a super piece of hardware with very flexible bus interfaces and interoperability with other cabs. My only real issue was with touchscreen throttle control which the physical Multimaus cab enabled me to avoid. Happy days. Only other minor snag was a firmware bug where the Z21 thinks loco addresses in the range 100-127 are long addresses instead of NMRA spec of short addresses. One of my locos had a short address of 121 which the roco was unable to address until I reprogrammed the address. I'm sure you will be happy with your Z21, they are popular here in the club. Just for clarity For others Noel, there is no “ software bug “ in relation to short address 100-127. Roco , as did many other DCC manufacturers chose to limit the short address range to 2 digits , ie 1-99 and to interpret 3+ digits as extended addresses. This is entirely consistent with the nmra spec as the standard doesn’t mandate what specific address range any particular manufacturer has to provide. This is only an issue where you switch locos from one command station to another and only for locos programmed with short addresses in the 100-127 range the oft quoted advice is that in general for interoperability don’t use short addrsess 100-127 i just wanted to clear up the issue over a suggestion in Noel’s post that the Z21 isn’t following the nmra spec the underlying mistake is actually nmra should not have allowed the primary addressing and extended addressing scheme to have overlapping ranges Our experiences with the z21 and Z21 have been very positive and while we have a WiFi Multimaus , it almost never gets used Dave Edited March 22, 2019 by Junctionmad 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Vecchio Posted March 22, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 22, 2019 Sniffer port: to connect other DCC controllers to the Z21 "On the Sniff-BUS, "decommissioned" DCC control centres can be connected to a output voltage from 16V. This means that this control centre can be used as an additional speed regulator. However, the transmission direction in this case is only ever from the third party control centre to the Z21®. The loco can still be transmitted to another control device on the Z21® at any time, though. For correct synchronisation, please observe the following switch-on sequence: first the Z21®, then the third party control centre. Normally the Z21® will nevertheless start up much quicker than older control centres, however." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Izzy Posted March 22, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 22, 2019 I am afraid I have no experience of the Z21 thottle app, but is it not possible, when wanting fine control for shunting etc, possible to simply tap the slider to shift one speed step at a time, as with the other throttle apps available for android/apple? Or is it more a tactile thing? Izzy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted March 22, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 22, 2019 9 minutes ago, Izzy said: I am afraid I have no experience of the Z21 thottle app, but is it not possible, when wanting fine control for shunting etc, possible to simply tap the slider to shift one speed step at a time, as with the other throttle apps available for android/apple? Or is it more a tactile thing? Izzy No it will jump to the step that you tap on, there's no up and down single step option. To be honest they could do with adding a feature found on other phone apps where you can adjust the sensitivity so you can alter to the full range of the slide only giving half the speed range, sort of a shunt mode. You can do it by limiting the speed of the loco on the chip but that obviously needs more setting up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Kettlewell Posted March 22, 2019 Share Posted March 22, 2019 (edited) In the new App there are settings for 'Steering Sensitivity' and 'Steering Differential'. As shown here: These are worth experimenting with for finer control. Cheers … Alan Edited March 22, 2019 by Alan Kettlewell 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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