mainline terminus loco depot but without the bulk: ideas please!

[muir]

Hi,

 

Needing some help with ideas please - I have a 4 platform terminus with attempts at mainline, A4's, N2 Commuters, maybe the occasional Deltic - not based on anywhere, just a secondary mainline.

 

Anyway, I'm needing some clues for loco depot - I want it to be (and am limited for space) more of a quick turn and service facility i.e turntable, coaling, water, diesel fueling - what I don't want (and have no room for) is bulky engine sheds and lots of loco storage roads with 144 loco's on them (was Bournemouth really that big?) - but I'm well aware that a typical secondary terminus: Bath, Bournemouth, Dover et al, they all had monster engine shed / Facilities, and even larger rosters.

 

I was thinking about just having a shed facade - just the door frontages with at any one time maybe two loco's either on the ready road, getting turned, or maybe coaling, at best maybe 3 in view, all the supposed others out on the road.

 

What I'm asking is does anyone have any piccies or plans in model form of what I'm thinking? I'm finding it hard to visualize, and while realism isn't something I'm good at, I at least like it to look plausible...

 

Many thanks

Muir

Edited October 11, 2017 by muir

[PatB]

I haven't any plans to hand but the arrangement you suggest was a favourite of CJ Freezer. Turntable, coaling and watering, with short storage roads ending at the doors of a low-relief shed frontage on the backscene. He also frequently provided just coaling, turning and watering, with just a couple of spurs for short-term loco storage, the main depot being assumed to be further down the line, necessitating light engine movements to/from the fiddle yard.

 

His plans using these ideas can be found in his books (60 Plans for Small Railways/Locations, Track Plans and Plans for Larger Layouts) and any number of Plans of the Months in 60s and 70s issues of Railway Modeller.

 

I'm sure other, better informed, RMWebbers will be able to suggest prototypes using valeting facilities at terminii rather than full depots. Assuming CJF wasn't just making stuff up, of course .

[JeffP]

Something like Kings Cross Loco in steam days?

[HillsideDepot]

My first thought was Kings Cross Loco (albeit I only know it in the diesel years).

A second suggestion, albeit not Eastern, would be Ranelagh Bridge just outside Paddington which might be suitable/provide inspiration.

[Joseph_Pestell]

As per the above, you won't find much more compact than the loco facilities at Kings Cross - but that is just a servicing area without any shed.

 

Various similar examples around the country (e.g. Birkenhead Woodside, London Cannon St) but quite rare to find a shed that close to the sort of major station where an A4 would be seen. Just a simple matter of land values and the fact that a lot of residential property had to be demolished even to build the stations.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Something like Kings Cross Loco in steam days?

 Which could be simplified to just two parallel roads each little more than two feet long terminating on the turntable. Minimal but adequate to accomodate the proposed two or three locos at any one time cycling through watering and coaling, turning, dropping ash and receiving lubrication attention. No undercover stabling of course as that was at Top Shed.

 

(The real KX 'Bottom Shed' barely took up an acre of land, in 4mm needs a space about sixteen inches by eight feet to be modelled entire.)

[The Johnster]

Might it be possible to model the shed in low relief and enter through the side as was done with one of the steam roundhouses at Old Oak Common?  I cannot think of any actual prototype terminus with loco facilities where this was ever done, but I would say it is justifiable as modeller's licence/rule !.

[muir]

Must say, there's been an awfully good amount of help here, Ranelagh Bridge is extremely close to what I want but there's a whole lot of surrounding buildings, Kings Cross Bottom Shed is probably closer (and it's NE). Luckily, seeing as I don't want to actually do a copy of a prototype, I can involve a bit of abbreviating and modellers licence.

 

The indirect access of Bottom shed from the platform roads is neat, bit more points changing and light engine work, and of course the start of the MPD is more beside the platform ends rather than a few feet forward of them.

 

Water supply probably just stands, coal not too sure, I'm a little dubious as to the overhead coalers which would be more akin to servicing A4's but involve a lot more trackage, with wagon lifts and bypass tracks etc. Maybe the Coaling gets done off site.

Hang on - I've suddenly remembered: the tenders are always full when I have a look at my steamers. Good show!

[Flying Pig]

I'm sure I've seen photos of a scratchbuilt LNER coaling plant like this one recently, but I can't remember where - it could even have been on RMweb. It's a pretty compact setup. Alternatively, there were a lot of light engine movements in steam days - inconvenient in real life, but fun on a model - so coaling elsewhere is fine if local facilities aren't available.

Edited October 11, 2017 by Flying Pig

[The Johnster]

Think about the very minimum requirement for a loco stabling point at a terminus with a shed not far away with full servicing facilities.  The main thing is to provide a space out of the way of the other movements to keep locos while the crews, who have worked the loco in and are now having their tea break before taking up the next part of the duty, can be kept.  Actually, a few short sidings to stable the locos, and a mess room with a stove and a place to boil a kettle, and some chairs and a table, are all that is really needed; everything and anything else is a luxury.  Locos sit on the sidings out of the way until they are needed, while others come and go to start or finish their duties at the nearby big shed and do not use the loco sidings at all!  There is not even a need for an office, though there may well be one; if not there will be a telephone in the mess room so that the shed foreman or Control can communicate with crews.  Nobody books on or signs off duty here, it is simply a staging area.

 

But it would be usual to find watering facilities and inspection pits, a lamp hut, and perhaps very basic ash disposal facilities as well.  We need to sweep out smokeboxes, but probably not to drop fires!  If tender locos are involved, probably a turntable.  Coaling implies a bit more space, and would be often done at the shed nearby.  The locos using the facility have come in from sheds at the start of their journeys to the terminus, and are probably low on water but still have plenty of coal for the run back home.  Covered facilities are luxury indeed.

 

Translating this to diesel usage, and we are down to the messroom, telephone, and sidings; no real need now for pits, ash disposal, lamps, or water.  If these facilities are still there, they will be a hangover from steam days, and the turntable will almost certainly have gone!  Ranaleigh and Kings X had basic fuelling facilities, but both handled locos that had worked long distances to the terminus; a Minories type operation would not need this.

 

There would almost certainly be a standpipe for fresh water around somewhere.

Edited October 11, 2017 by The Johnster

[scottystitch]

This is a great thread, and many thanks to the OP for starting it. Of course, also thanks to the respondents.

 

Incidentally, how is Ranelagh pronounced? I'm guessing Rain-Lah?

[Clive Mortimore]

I'm sure I've seen photos of a scratchbuilt LNER coaling plant like this one recently, but I can't remember where - it could even have been on RMweb. It's a pretty compact setup. Alternatively, there were a lot of light engine movements in steam days - inconvenient in real life, but fun on a model - so coaling elsewhere is fine if local facilities aren't available.

Hi Simon

 

Like the one I built for my diesel depot Brisbane Road. There is a etched brass kit for one of these, I was given a photo copy of the etches to help me build my one, sadly if you followed the side rails the tub went up on the tub would not reach the top and discharge. I was lucky to find a good side on photo of one and resized it to 4mm scale. Before gluing the tub in place it would travel up and down and tip at the top.

 

I no longer have it but will be building a new one for my new layout.

[DCB]

A lot of termini had loco turning facilities either within the station precincts or nearby with the actual loco depot some way away.  Kings Cross had a small servicing point to save sending locos to Top Shed, as did Marylebone, a 4 platform terminus, to avoid light engine trips to Neasden, however these were mainly for visiting locos.  Locally allocated locos would normally work in from and back to their depot tender first.

A turntable and a few stabling roads with pits a la Ranelagh bridge at Paddington is probably the ultimate unless you want somewhere to display those Hornby and Bachmann freight locos which won't pull the skin off a bread pudding.  

Turntables are a problem, the Hornby 76 footer is huge and pretty pointless as a 65ft will swing a Duchess and saves a lot of space and is visually much less dominant on a small layout.

Cheltenham St James a 4 platform terminus had a Turntable and little else as the depot was at Malvern Road 1/2 mile away beyond the road bridge and junction with the main line.

I used a low relief engine shed once, just the front 1/4 of a Dapol shed widened to two road with the back of a Dapol 61XX in one road and the front in another to block the view. However that was on a Welsh branch line.

A4s and the like did work to some unlikely places on filling in turns so maybe arriving on a local made of non corridor suburbans or leaving on a fitted freight is more likely than arriving on a short semi fast. The A4s were high value assets and finished their days on express passenger work.  

[JeffP]

This is a great thread, and many thanks to the OP for starting it. Of course, also thanks to the respondents.

 

Incidentally, how is Ranelagh pronounced? I'm guessing Rain-Lah?

We always said "Ran-ly"

[Flying Pig]

Hi Simon

 

Like the one I built for my diesel depot Brisbane Road. There is a etched brass kit for one of these, I was given a photo copy of the etches to help me build my one, sadly if you followed the side rails the tub went up on the tub would not reach the top and discharge. I was lucky to find a good side on photo of one and resized it to 4mm scale. Before gluing the tub in place it would travel up and down and tip at the top.

 

I no longer have it but will be building a new one for my new layout.

Quite likely that very one, Clive. Why I was reading a 2013 post I have no idea, but it's comforting to know I'm not imagining things just yet! I look forward to seeing the new one.

[JeffP]

Kings Cross loco track plan:

 

https://www.old-maps.co.uk/#/Map/530242/183424/13/101329

 

1953 at 1:1250

1954 at 1:2500 available.

[Caley739]

For something really basic,how about the two road shed at Glasgow Buchanan Street with just a turntable, inspection pits, and rudimentary coaling bench. It may not have been much used in later days but was still present at closure of the station in the mid 1960s.

 

Tom Robertson

[33040]

London Liverpool Street had a small coaling point and turntable squeezed in between the mainline and suburban platforms, located between and below Primrose Street and Skinner Street.  It was still in use in the early / mid 1980s to refuel locos but the turntable was long gone by then. Primrose Street still exists but Skinner Street seems to have disappeared.

Use Google search for images - "London Liverpool Street track plan".
 

The same search produced a track plan for Liverpool Lime Street from RMWeb which shows turntables near platforms 1 and 7
http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/33141-lime-street-station/page-43

Post 1067

 

[Clive Mortimore]

For a confined space terminus with a turntable have a butchers at Liverpool Central

 

Another one is Leeds Central.

[PenrithBeacon]

For Manchester see https://www.old-maps.co.uk/#/Map/383500/398500/12/101104

 

Regards

[muir]

If you're interested don't start typing and then get distracted by something like an auction closing or the wife yelling something as you end up losing all the stuff that you've been typing.

 

You guys have given me a whole lot of thoughts and different directions, examples (1950's Birmingham New Street, Kings X, Ranly GWR etc) and what I've done is actually removed the TT and MPD totally from the Terminus, giving me lots more room from Carriage sidings and  the like, so i can actually have more of an "on-site" staging yard, and plonked the MPD alongside my main thru station so engines from Terminus proceed light to MPD, and to a certain extent it's added a major operation to my thru station which it didn't have before: trains can now terminate at my thru station, tender loco's turning and taking their turns on the next train that terminates, it's actually opened up quite a new operating experience.

 

One thing is I think that loop tracks that run all the way through a turntable look very aesthetically pleasing, but can take up a lot of room.

 

thanks everybody 

Edited October 12, 2017 by muir

[tractionman]

Kings Cross loco track plan:

 

https://www.old-maps.co.uk/#/Map/530242/183424/13/101329

 

1953 at 1:1250

1954 at 1:2500 available.

For the 1:1250 mapping for King's Cross see

 

http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=18.563073199820185&lat=51.5342&lon=-0.1239&layers=173&b=1

 

All the best,

 

Keith

[DCB]

If you're interested don't start typing and then get distracted by something like an auction closing or the wife yelling something as you end up losing all the stuff that you've been typing.

 

You guys have given me a whole lot of thoughts and different directions, examples (1950's Birmingham New Street, Kings X, Ranly GWR etc) and what I've done is actually removed the TT and MPD totally from the Terminus, giving me lots more room from Carriage sidings and  the like, so i can actually have more of an "on-site" staging yard, and plonked the MPD alongside my main thru station so engines from Terminus proceed light to MPD, and to a certain extent it's added a major operation to my thru station which it didn't have before: trains can now terminate at my thru station, tender loco's turning and taking their turns on the next train that terminates, it's actually opened up quite a new operating experience.

 

One thing is I think that loop tracks that run all the way through a turntable look very aesthetically pleasing, but can take up a lot of room.

 

thanks everybody 

Most GWR expresses terminated at through stations, Temple Meads, Plymouth Hereford, Worcester, Wolverhampton (Some stopped at but didn't terminate at  termini like Swansea and Carmarthen) and many changed engines at others, Swindon, Oxford, Gloucester (Reverse) Temple Meads, Exeter/Newton Abbott, Plymouth North Road.    An engine would arrive and sometimes very rarely turn and take the same train back (MSWJR Cheltenham post 1957 was an example) but more often there would be a decent break and another crew would take the loco over maybe a couple of hours later for another turn.  Another GWR trick was to use an engine as station pilot between passenger turns, so the Banbury station pilot could be a Swindon 43XX,  See Swindon Engineman by Mike Sturmer.  The one GWR thing few of us have room to do is to divide trains, it really needs about 8 coaches minimum, the first 3, a dining car set with a King coming off, leaving 8 for a Manor or Star would be good, I think thats what the Merchant Venturer Paddington to Weston-super-Mare did at Temple Meads, and several Bristol Trains were reconfigured at Swindon.   Through stations can be far more than just scenery on a continuous run.

[The Johnster]

I think this sort of thing was very deeply embedded in GW culture, and another very notable example would be Pontypool Road, about the distance that a main line loco could run from Plymouth and return the same day with a train for the North West, or that a Crewe loco could do in the other direction.  Trains for South Wales on the same route often came up from Cardiff or were taken forward to Cardiff by tank engines, 5101 or sometimes 56xx a little out of their depth speed wise.  Parcel traffic, a very important part of the station's work, was split here or marshalled into single trains.  And all on one platform...

 

Swindon itself, no less, owes it's origin to this thinking; Gooch's Fire Fly class, which did not have the range to do the whole run in one go, came off here and were replaced with fresh engines for the onward run to Bristol.  It was about half way, not in distance but in running time, as there were gradients west of Swindon that slowed things down a little.  The exact location was determined by a suitable supply of soft water that the boilers liked and the changeover time was used to allow passengers off the train to visit the tea rooms for refreshment, an establishment which rapidly gained a reputation for poor quality and overpricing; the GW was tied in to a contract with the owners that it could not get out of for many years and trains still stopped for suitable 'refreshment' period long after the need to change locos was a thing of the past.

 

The Great Northern seems to have done a lot of engine changing on it's stopping expresses as well, thinking of the locomotives perhaps originally in the same way as the horses that had previous worked the stage coaches on the Great North Road (I'd like to have seen that Turpin bloke try to hold up a Stirling single at 80mph plus, 'Stand and De....splattt!) in a previous time.

Edited October 13, 2017 by The Johnster

[Clive Mortimore]

 

Kings Cross bottom shed, layout plan.

 

 

Liverpool Street, layout plan

 

 

Cambridge Street, layout plan.

 

Ranelagh Bridge, layout nearly done.

 

All in the diesel period.