LNWR Staff Uniform Colour(s) GREEN

[Penlan]

Following on from a Q. on the LNWR Society's (in-house) Forum and subsequent replies also on the Society's FB page, I now learn Staff uniform coats etc., were GREEN.

The information was garnered from David Froggall's Book ' Railway Buttons, Badges and Uniforms'  that Guards wore double breasted GREEN Frock coats with Grey trousers.  It's further implied that the only grade of staff that didn't wear green was Hotel porters who wore red coats.  The statement is dated 1914, but the illustration below is 1870 - at which date I would not be surprised to see Green Uniforms.

 

I did ask the original supplier of the information if this was correct, e.g. does this include Porters, Station Masters etc., and the answer was "Yes".

I haven't found any reference to Staff uniform colours in any of the LNWR books I've acquired over the years, from Sir Francis Head's 1849 'Stokers & Pokers', through Edward Finlay's 1890 book on the LNWR, right up to the latest books.

 

So, with an element of trepidation, I'm stating all LNWR Staff uniforms should have Green Top Coats and Grey Trousers.  I await correction

 

[Edwardian]

Wonderful!

 

1870 doesn't surprise me, by 1914!

 

There is a great series of posed photographs of various types of servant in the Edwardian period, 1908 IIRC, with which I am sure many of us are familiar.

 

I am struggling to imagine these in green, but that is the force or pre-conception, I suppose.

[Penlan]

I'm still waiting for a correction.
I ploughed through various LNWR Minutes at Kew some 45 - 35 years ago, but I don't ever remember seeing anything about uniform colours, or indeed the ordering of suitable materials.

I might just hold off re-painting my models for a month or two, say after Christmas.

Edited October 11, 2017 by Penlan

[NCB]

Does "staff" include workers such as engine drivers, firemen, etc?

[TheSignalEngineer]

The man from the Queens Hotel who assisted passengers to and from the platforms at Birmingham New Street work a dark red double breasted coat right up to closure in 1964

[Penlan]

Does "staff" include workers such as engine drivers, firemen, etc?

I'm sure it doesn't, BUT I'm awaiting clarification from those who haven't popped their heads above the parapets.... 

[Trog]

 

Picture of my Great Grandfather far left does seem to show a jacket quite a bit lighter than his trousers.

[Hroth]

More importantly, which Scotch Express was wrecked?

 

(Lady elopes wih coachman?  Shock horror!)

[TheSignalEngineer]

The Natal Uprising was 1906 so it would probably be Grantham.

[Trog]

I was thinking Kirtlebridge, but I have an unfair advantage as I know that the photo was taken on the 7th of April that year.

Edited October 11, 2017 by Trog

[TheSignalEngineer]

Kirtlebridge it is then (6th April). Grantham was on 19th September.

[asmay2002]

"Green" could possibly mean a colour almost indistinguishable from black as well as lighter shades...

[Argos]

Hi Penlan,

 

That is really useful information.

I  have some station staff part painted, the reason they are only part painted is because I have been struggling to find any reference to LNWR uniform colours.

There are, of course, plenty of black and white photos, sadly these give no clue as to colour.

 

A question on the LNWR web site was going to be raised once I got around to finishing the painting.

 

Look like you beat me to it!

[Penlan]

A question on the LNWR web site was going to be raised once I got around to finishing the painting.

It has been raised on the Society's in-house Forum and Mike Williams started the in-house responses.

 

My starter (for 10?) has come from the Society's Facebook Page.

 

ALL E.& O.E.

Edited October 11, 2017 by Penlan

[Edwardian]

More importantly, which Scotch Express was wrecked?

 

(Lady elopes wih coachman?  Shock horror!)

 

I was thinking Cudworth, 1905

 

EDIT: That is the location of the accident, rather than the name of the coachman!

 

(Possibly Larry is even older than we'd imagined)

 

But I agree that events in Natal place it rather in 1906.

Edited October 11, 2017 by Edwardian

[Compound2632]

I was thinking Kirtlebridge, but I have an unfair advantage as I know that the photo was taken on the 7th of April that year.

 

See http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/docsummary.php?docID=2515. The cause of the accident was the breaking-up of a Mansell wheel centre of a WCJS meat van, causing the derailment of its train, a southbound express goods, blocking the path of a down Scotch express. There was much destruction of stock but only one fatality.

 

Lt. Col. Yorke's report makes interesting reading. The express goods train was fully-fitted (one vehicle through pipe only) and running at 60mph - rather exceptional for 1906? It was lightly loaded - only 17 vehicles, and mostly 4-wheeled. Yorke expresses doubt about the wisdom of running at such high speed with 4-wheeled stock - very forward-looking since I think the practice was only discontinued in the late 60s or early 70s.

 

There's some interesting terminology - both the engine of the goods train, No. 75 (Drummond 66 Class), and that of the express, No. 902 (Dunalastair III), are described as a "four wheels coupled bogie passenger engine" and the vehicles of the goods train are described as "waggons" (cf. Pedants' Weekly). I've not previously read an Accident Report where the composition of the goods train was important, so this one is interesting as it gives the number, type, and contents of each vehicle - the latter are mostly "sundries" although the van with the disintegrating wheel contained 18 hundredweight of offal.

Edited October 12, 2017 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

Following on from a Q. on the LNWR Society's (in-house) Forum and subsequent replies also on the Society's FB page, I now learn Staff uniform coats etc., were GREEN.

 

The information was garnered from David Froggall's Book ' Railway Buttons, Badges and Uniforms'  that Guards wore double breasted GREEN Frock coats with Grey trousers.  It's further implied that the only grade of staff that didn't wear green was Hotel porters who wore red coats.  The statement is dated 1914, but the illustration below is 1870 - at which date I would not be surprised to see Green Uniforms.

 

I did ask the original supplier of the information if this was correct, e.g. does this include Porters, Station Masters etc., and the answer was "Yes".

 

I haven't found any reference to Staff uniform colours in any of the LNWR books I've acquired over the years, from Sir Francis Head's 1849 'Stokers & Pokers', through Edward Finlay's 1890 book on the LNWR, right up to the latest books.

 

So, with an element of trepidation, I'm stating all LNWR Staff uniforms should have Green Top Coats and Grey Trousers.  I await correction

 

LNWR Staff Colours.jpg

 

This had me diving for LNWR Liveries - though I'm sure you'd looked there. I was amazed to find no mention of uniforms therein. Both Midland Style and North Eastern Record have sections on the subject - blue being the general colour for both companies.

[Hroth]

I was thinking Cudworth, 1905

 

EDIT: That is the location of the accident, rather than the name of the coachman!

 

(Possibly Larry is even older than we'd imagined)

 

But I agree that events in Natal place it rather in 1906.

I'd considered Cudworth and Grantham, but thought the caualty lists for them would have made a bigger impact on the posters.

 

(Cudworth!  Lets run away together!  Yus m'lady!)

 

 

See http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/docsummary.php?docID=2515. The cause of the accident was the breaking-up of a Mansell wheel centre of a WCJS meat van, causing the derailment of its train, a southbound express goods, blocking the path of a down Scotch express. There was much destruction of stock but only one fatality.

 

Lt. Col. Yorke's report makes interesting reading. The express goods train was fully-fitted (one vehicle through pipe only) and running at 60mph - rather exceptional for 1906? It was lightly loaded - only 17 vehicles, and mostly 4-wheeled. Yorke expresses doubt about the wisdom of running at such high speed with 4-wheeled stock - very forward-looking since I think the practice was only discontinued in the late 60s or early 70s.

 

There's some interesting terminology - both the engine of the goods train, No. 75 (Drummond 66 Class), and that of the express, No. 902 (Dunalastair III), are described as a "four wheels coupled bogie passenger engine" and the vehicles of the goods train are described as "waggons" (cf. Pedants' Weekly). I've not previously read an Accident Report where the composition of the goods train was important, so this one is interesting as it gives the number, type, and contents of each vehicle - the latter are mostly "sundries" although the van with the disintegrating wheel contained 18 hundredweight of offal.

 

Thanks for the info - that van with the wonky wheel must have made a considerable mess....

[Edwardian]

Interesting?

 

http://www.culture24.org.uk/history-and-heritage/transport-and-industry/art76146

 

Porters often wore harder wearing corduroy, either suit or at least trousers, and these were often on brown or green material, even where the company otherwise wore a conventional dark blue.

[Hroth]

Interesting?

 

http://www.culture24.org.uk/history-and-heritage/transport-and-industry/art76146

 

Porters often wore harder wearing corduroy, either suit or at least trousers, and these were often on brown or green material, even where the company otherwise wore a conventional dark blue.

Interesting stuff.  But a pity they didn't specify which railway Mr Dilworths grandfather worked for. (as we're talking green, I suppose it might be the LNWR...)

 

But, a Train Worker?

 

It seems that the word "railway" has passed out of the vocabulary of the youth of today!  grumble grumble.....

[Edwardian]

Interesting stuff.  But a pity they didn't specify which railway Mr Dilworths grandfather worked for. (as we're talking green, I suppose it might be the LNWR...)

 

But, a Train Worker?

 

It seems that the word "railway" has passed out of the vocabulary of the youth of today!  grumble grumble.....

 

Yes, typical of the media not to recall the most important fact; the railway company concerned.

 

One might have thought that, if it means anything, "train worker" must refer to drivers and firemen, as they are the ones primarily responsible for making the "train" "work".

 

My children are chastised if they utter "train station", yet I hear it on the BBC frequently these days. 

 

My own view is that people who say "train station" should be dragged from their beds in the middle of the night and shot in the street.

 

Possibly, I am wrong to hold such views.  After all, it might fairly be argued that shooting is too good for them.

[Jol Wilkinson]

Yes, typical of the media not to recall the most important fact; the railway company concerned.

 

One might have thought that, if it means anything, "train worker" must refer to drivers and firemen, as they are the ones primarily responsible for making the "train" "work".

 

My children are chastised if they utter "train station", yet I hear it on the BBC frequently these days. 

 

My own view is that people who say "train station" should be dragged from their beds in the middle of the night and shot in the street.

 

Possibly, I am wrong to hold such views.  After all, it might fairly be argued that shooting is too good for them.

While I dislike the use of "train station" it probably seems logical to younger generations that, if you catch a bus at a bus station, then you get on a train at a train station.

 

Now, with the London Underground, do you go to an Underground station because it is part of the Underground system, or to get on an Underground train?

 

And, to keep on topic, I am looking through my LNWR library, in the hope I can avoid the need to repaint all my station staff.

[Trog]

As we know the early Railways were very influenced by the armed forces, as the only other organisations with experience of having a workforce in the tens of thousands spread out over hundreds of miles of area. So I am thinking did the word station come from the Navy, as there were the various stations each with its fleet of ships under an admiral, and more recently there have been Naval Air Stations. These being the stations at which the Navy based its Ships and Aircraft.

 

So the Railway follows and instead of ships based at a Naval Station you have trains based at a Railway station, in both cases the station being named for the owning organisation. Then the confusion sets in as other organisations get in on the act where the organisation and its based item have much the same name. So should we be looking at a Police Station not as a place where Policemen are based, but rather as where the Police Force bases its Constables? In any case I agree with Edwardian that strong measures should be taken against anyone who utters the abomination that is train station.   . Myself I feel that they should be hung from the nearest lamp post, alongside the manager of any shop that plays carols before December.

Edited October 12, 2017 by Trog

[Compound2632]

 alongside the manager of any shop that plays carols before December.

 

Unless the First Sunday of Advent is early enough to be in November.

 

My children are chastised if they utter "train station",

 

Oh dear Oh dear - I have visions of suitably Edwardian punishments, possibly involving the combined volume of The Railway Series. I know it's not in itself pre-grouping but it strikes me (sorry) as the most appropriate volume.

 

Maybe "rebuked" would be better to avoid a visit from the NSPCC?

[Compound2632]

As we know the early Railways were very influenced by the armed forces, as the only other organisations with experience of having a workforce in the tens of thousands spread out over hundreds of miles of area. So I am thinking did the word station come from the Navy, as there were the various stations each with its fleet of ships under an admiral, and more recently there have been Naval Air Stations. These being the stations at which the Navy based its Ships and Aircraft.

 

I wonder whether the military background - both army and navy - of many of the early chief officers and directors of the LNWR affected the choice of green, and if so, how/why?