Aberdeen Kirkhill T&RSD

[ChrisFordham]

Folks, we made the trip up to Model Rail Scotland, specifically to see two layouts, Aberdeen Kirkhill being one of them.

 

We really were impressed with the layout, it did not disappoint in any way, hopefully we will get to see you again if you

are a bit further down south!

 

Cheers Chris

[Poor Old Bruce]

Folks, we made the trip up to Model Rail Scotland, specifically to see two layouts, Aberdeen Kirkhill being one of them.

 

We really were impressed with the layout, it did not disappoint in any way, hopefully we will get to see you again if you

are a bit further down south!

 

Cheers Chris

 

Is Nottingham in two weeks time near enough?

[LNERandBR]

Really enjoyed seeing Aberdeen Kirkhill in it's newly extended format at the Nottingham show today. Sadly I do think it's growth has affected the amount of movement as it just didn't seem as busy as it had previously. However despite this it's still a cracking layout and I was really happy to stand in front of it for sometime watching.

 

What's the minimum radius on your curves as I spotted that the HST's have body mounted Kadee Couplings? I'm interested to know as I was very impressed with the close coupling your achieving with the Kadee's. 

[Dunedin]

Really enjoyed seeing Aberdeen Kirkhill in it's newly extended format at the Nottingham show today. Sadly I do think it's growth has affected the amount of movement as it just didn't seem as busy as it had previously. However despite this it's still a cracking layout and I was really happy to stand in front of it for sometime watching.

 

What's the minimum radius on your curves as I spotted that the HST's have body mounted Kadee Couplings? I'm interested to know as I was very impressed with the close coupling your achieving with the Kadee's. 

 

 

Thanks for the feedback and apologies for the delay in replying - lots of other stuff going on and not been on RM Web for a while now.

 

I've also noticed that the depot doesn't seem as busy as before, but I think this is due to the same number of moves going on in what is now a visually longer space. This results in it only appearing to be half as busy, which is an unintended consequence of the extension. We have a few ideas to improve on this, which involves replacing the DMU with a loco-hauled set, which will result in more shunting moves.

 

The curves and the Kadees: We have always used No. 5 Kadee couplers on all our stock which isn't fitted with NEM sockets - and in the case of the Bachmann Mark 1 and Mark 2 coaches, we've even retrofitted the No. 5s to those as well because we can achieve the correct height standard. (The NEM sockets are too high for some reason.)

 

The No. 5s worked fine on the original layout where we had minimum 3ft radius curves, although with our Mark 3 coaches we had always noticed a tendency for them to roll slightly when propelling them through reverse curves on point ladders - i.e. a medium radius RH followed immediately by a medium radius LH. I had always thought that was due to having the couplings set too far into the under frame so the gangways were tending to foul, but it didn't result in derailments so we left it.

 

That changed with the extension project when we were forced due to space constraints to use curved streamline points (SL-E86 & SL-E87) which have an inside radius of 30in. The other thing that changed was the increase in running speeds from a crawl around the depot to running at mainline speeds on the mainlines. All of a sudden, we began to get derailments, which came as something of a surprise and an unwelcome one at that!

 

We also noticed that the derailments weren't only confined to the curved points, but also occurred on the ladder roads in the fiddle yard which used the 3ft radius medium points that we used in the depot. We were running at higher speed in the fiddle yard though, to minimise the delays to getting things onto the viewing side of the layout, so that was a contributing factor. Another thing we found was that our pairs of powered HST power cars were no longer speed-matched. This was either pulling, or squeezing the middle of the train off on the curves. This is probably worth a post in itself, but after several attempts to correct this, time got the better of me and I reverted to using dummy power cars at one end of the sets.

 

In the end, I built a small length of test track with a left and right hand point, one after the other to observe what happens in the reverse curve scenario. What occurs is that the Kadee No.5 couplers reach the limit of their lateral travel and the the two coaches lock up solid, so the flanges start to climb the rails. At low speed, it can just about cope, but a higher speed it will derail. This is actually worse with a long set being propelled - i.e. dummy power car leading.

 

I've tried a couple of solutions, but neither is ideal: Kadee 149 couplers have longer shanks, which don't create the foul condition referred to above when they are in tension. Unfortunately, when propelling, because the combination bends in three places, the knuckles become off-set to one side, the gangways begin to foul and the lock-up situation occurs again, so that isn't exactly ideal.

My other experiment was to refit tension-lock couplings on the bogies again, but this doesn't seem to work either with long rakes, so this is all still a work in progress.

 

I've bought some Keen Systems floating gangway faceplates to try, but I'm not convinced these will have low enough friction to work with the Kadees and I don't particularly want to do a full scale conversion to the Keen system. I'm not convinced that will work on a layout the size of Kirkhill.

 

Watch this space for further updates and ideas.

Edited May 17, 2018 by Dunedin

[newbryford]

Thanks for the feedback and apologies for the delay in replying - lots of other stuff going on and not been on RM Web for a while now.

 

I've also noticed that the depot doesn't seem as busy as before, but I think this is due to the same number of moves going on in what is now a visually longer space. This results in it only appearing to be half as busy, which is an unintended consequence of the extension. We have a few ideas to improve on this, which involves replacing the DMU with a loco-hauled set, which will result in more shunting moves.

 

The curves and the Kadees: We have always used No. 5 Kadee couplers on all our stock which isn't fitted with NEM sockets - and in the case of the Bachmann Mark 1 and Mark 2 coaches, we've even retrofitted the No. 5s to those as well because we can achieve the correct height standard. (The NEM sockets are too high for some reason.)

 

The No. 5s worked fine on the original layout where we had minimum 3ft radius curves, although with our Mark 3 coaches we had always noticed a tendency for them to roll slightly when propelling them through reverse curves on point ladders - i.e. a medium radius RH followed immediately by a medium radius LH. I had always thought that was due to having the couplings set too far into the under frame so the gangways were tending to foul, but it didn't result in derailments so we left it.

 

That changed with the extension project when we were forced due to space constraints to use curved streamline points (SL-E86 & SL-E87) which have an inside radius of 30in. The other thing that changed was the increase in running speeds from a crawl around the depot to running at mainline speeds on the mainlines. All of a sudden, we began to get derailments, which came as something of a surprise and an unwelcome one at that!

 

We also noticed that the derailments weren't only confined to the curved points, but also occurred on the ladder roads in the fiddle yard which used the 3ft radius medium points that we used in the depot. We were running at higher speed in the fiddle yard though, to minimise the delays to getting things onto the viewing side of the layout, so that was a contributing factor. Another thing we found was that our pairs of powered HST power cars were no longer speed-matched. This was either pulling, or squeezing the middle of the train off on the curves. This is probably worth a post in itself, but after several attempts to correct this, time got the better of me and I reverted to using dummy power cars at one end of the sets.

 

In the end, I built a small length of test track with a left and right hand point, one after the other to observe what happens in the reverse curve scenario. What occurs is that the Kadee No.5 couplers reach the limit of their lateral travel and the the two coaches lock up solid, so the flanges start to climb the rails. At low speed, it can just about cope, but a higher speed it will derail. This is actually worse with a long set being propelled - i.e. dummy power car leading.

 

I've tried a couple of solutions, but neither is ideal: Kadee 149 couplers have longer shanks, which don't create the foul condition referred to above when they are in tension. Unfortunately, when propelling, because the combination bends in three places, the knuckles become off-set to one side, the gangways begin to foul and the lock-up situation occurs again, so that isn't exactly ideal.

My other experiment was to refit tension-lock couplings on the bogies again, but this doesn't seem to work either with long rakes, so this is all still a work in progress.

 

I've bought some Keen Systems floating gangway faceplates to try, but I'm not convinced these will have low enough friction to work with the Kadees and I don't particularly want to do a full scale conversion to the Keen system. I'm not convinced that will work on a layout the size of Kirkhill.

 

Watch this space for further updates and ideas.

 

Have you tried the long shank #26? This is now my preferred coupling of choice to a #5.

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Dunedin]

Have you tried the long shank #26? This is now my preferred coupling of choice to a #5.

 

Cheers,

Mick

 

 

Will look into those, thanks!

[newbryford]

Will look into those, thanks!

 

And forgot to mention that #146 may be worth a look as well.

 

Cheers,

Mick

[JCClark]

Hello Dunedin

After seeing Aberdeen Kirkhill at Glasgow and having a chat with you guys, I have been converting my Joueff and Lima Scotrail Mk 3 coaches to body fitted Kadee couplings and the rake runs great with a nem pocket fitted Kadee on a Heljan class 47. However, I am really struggling to haul the coaches with a nem fitted Kadee on my Bachmann class 47/7 locos.

Although the coupling appears to be more or less the correct height, the loco uncouples once the weight comes on to the coupling. I am finding this very frustrating as cannot come up with an answer.

It looks to me that if I removed the nem pocket and built a Kadee number 5 to be body fitted it would foul the bogie arrangement.

I would really appreciate and advice you may have to get round my problem.

Best regards

John

[Matt]

John, this is quite a common problem with Kadees in NEM pockets if there is a bit of "slop" - the cure I've found normally is to wedge a small sliver of plasticard (10 thou) into the NEM coupling socket either above or below the offending coupling (depending on height adjustment - note I find usually needs to be under) to reduce the amount of up/down movement possible.  Quite a few of Bachs coaches are even worse as not only is there slop in the NEM but also in the cam arrangement...  Good luck

 

M

[JCClark]

Thanks for the advice Matt, I will give it a go and see if I can get some better success.

Regards

John

[GWRPhil]

Any updates to the layout lately?

[Flood]

Sorry we haven't posted anything for a while but this year the rest of what life can throw at people seems to have happened.

 

We've been talking about changing the fiddle yard so that trains on the main line can flow better, hopefully making life easier for the operators and having a bit more happening for the public. With Winter now firmly here then any alterations won't be until next year and as we have had an enquiry for to the Manchester show in May then we will have to exhibit the layout in its present form (and probably have a sign saying that this is not a toy train set so if not enough trains seem to be running then there is not much we can do to solve this at the present time).

 

We also have an invite to Shildon in early October and Taunton in late October so if all goes to plan then that will be most of the country covered.

 

We are looking to put the layout into secure storage over the Winter to ensure that it has little chance of being effected by damp, plus Glenn needs the garage space anyway.

 

Thank you to everyone for keeping an eye on the thread, hopefully next year will be more railway modelling friendly.

[GWRPhil]

Sorry we haven't posted anything for a while but this year the rest of what life can throw at people seems to have happened.

 

We've been talking about changing the fiddle yard so that trains on the main line can flow better, hopefully making life easier for the operators and having a bit more happening for the public. With Winter now firmly here then any alterations won't be until next year and as we have had an enquiry for to the Manchester show in May then we will have to exhibit the layout in its present form (and probably have a sign saying that this is not a toy train set so if not enough trains seem to be running then there is not much we can do to solve this at the present time).

 

We also have an invite to Shildon in early October and Taunton in late October so if all goes to plan then that will be most of the country covered.

 

We are looking to put the layout into secure storage over the Winter to ensure that it has little chance of being effected by damp, plus Glenn needs the garage space anyway.

 

Thank you to everyone for keeping an eye on the thread, hopefully next year will be more railway modelling friendly.

Thanks for the update. Look forward to seeing the layout at Taunton next October. That’s now my local ish show so will be good to see the layout there.

[Bob Reid]

Hard to believe its been more than 10 years since you first spoke about this and I guess 10 since its first outing next year some time.  It hasn't half worn well and not been stationary (no pun intended) in all that time.  congratulations when it comes round.

[Flood]

Well it's been a while but the layout was brought out of storage today to test the point motors, uncouplers and lights (ready for Manchester) and everything worked perfectly!

 

We still need to check the fiddle yard boards but that will be tomorrow and hopefully we can manage a running session towards the end of the month but that may not be happening.

 

Manchester show at the Transport Museum (18th/19th May) will be our first for over a year so we are really looking forward to it. We hope some of you will be able to pop along to say hi.

 

 

On another thread I showed some progress on my molasses wagon so I'll continue that progress here for those who are interested.

 

The wagon so far. The chassis is a Bachmann TTA with the wheelbase lengthened by 4mm to be correct, the tank is now secured with the valve and (extended) tank filler details beginning to be added from an Airfix tank wagon. The ladders and walkways will be etched brass ones made for the Airfix tank from RT Models. The springs are twelve strips of 10 x 30 thou microstrip which are progressively 1.25mm shorter (plus a thirteenth equal to the longest one). They were actually easier to make than I imagined.

 

The barrel of the tank is two Homebase 21.5mm overflow pipe couplings. They are 21.5mm internal diameter and 25.8826mm (from verniers) external diameter. I then wrapped them in 10 thou plastikard not once but twice. Strictly speaking this should have made the diameter 26.8826mm but the gluing (and primer) increases the diameter to 27.1018mm, near enough perfect from my approximation on the BR diagram. The ends are from an Airfix tank (again), glued in place and then severely filed down as they are about 29mm diameter originally.

 

End details are next (3.2mm plastic rod and wire) then the barrel support from plastikard with some Archers rivets will complete the body. Finally, modified Bachmann underframe details will complete the model. Railtec make a full set of transfers so that is a blessing (see below).

 

 

The week before last was spent making two Petroleum Distillate TUA wagons. The tank bodies are lengthened Bachmann, the underframe is scratch built, suspension is from Cambrian compensation units , buffers from Lanarkshire and altered walkways and ladders from A1 models. These have had one wrap of 10 thou plastikard to increase the tank diameter.

 

and after completion:

 

From this distance I am really pleased with them. Closer too and my HP printer is no match for my old Epson D88, the transfers just aren't as crisp - especially those on white transfer paper. With a bit of weathering they will be just about acceptable but it is annoying that they aren't better.

 

I'm hoping to post another couple of additions in the next few weeks, I'm awaiting transfers from Railtec for one of them. In the meantime, as always, thanks for reading.

Edited April 3, 2022 by Flood

[d winpenny]

I that is some superb modelling right there

 

david

[Flood]

Just over two weeks until the Manchester Show so another quick update.

 

We haven't managed to book a test session on the layout so if it all goes wrong then it's only our fault. Personally I don't think we will have any problems with the running of the layout but I am looking at a different way of displaying the sequence to the operators so this may well cause total confusion.

 

Aberdeen Kirkhill will have three new arrivals for this exhibition. Two of these three could well be the very last coaches made for the layout, I honestly think that we've covered everything coaching stock wise now. Anyway here we go:

 

An HST Barrier coach (QSA). Many thanks to Railtec for making up custom number sets for this one, this coach will be used with the next new arrival as required.

 

After about three years wait is the InterCity Executive Saloon (TLUK). Again, many thanks to Railtec for making a custom sheet for me.

 

Finally we have the finished Molasses tank, the Bachmann TTA is there just to show some scale. I still haven't decided how heavily weathered I want the tank to be. Most of them were completely brown with clean patches for the panels and user details but the odd one was a bit cleaner after heavy maintenance.

There are other wagon types which were present at Aberdeen at that time but we don't have the fiddle yard space for them. So that's it for stock for the foreseeable future.  Please come and visit the Manchester Show if you can or perhaps Shildon or Taunton in October. We should also be at Doncaster Show next year.

 

Thanks as always for taking an interest.

Edited April 3, 2022 by Flood

[SHerr]

Molasses tank looks great, I’m currently building one although hadn’t realised the chassis needed lengthening so I’m ignoring that part of your post!

 

Out of interest what have you used for the yellow? I mixed some brown in to after looking through Paul Bartlett’s site but now I think it’s too much and yours looks much better. I think the weathering on most of them take it nearer to the colour I had.

[Flood]

The yellow is Railmatch 2304,  pre '84 Warning Panel Yellow. It has less of an orange tinge compared to the '84 - '03 version (2203).

 

For completeness the blue is Humbrol 15, Midnight Blue gloss. I don't know if they make a satin or matt version but I had the tin anyway and the colour seemed pretty close.

 

Like you say, most of them ended up overall brown after weathering anyway but this photo on RailScot does show some variation. Incidentally there are some very good photos on this site of these wagons including useful end detail.

https://www.railscot.co.uk/img/8/358/

 

I don't blame you for not extending the wheelbase but the blue is in line with the inner edges of the suspension hangers on the prototype so you will need to paint the demarcations 2mm further out on each one to ensure the blue to yellow ratio is the same.

 

The transfers are all Railtec apart from the blue Rail Car Services Limited ones below the Procor. I made these myself but they were only carried for about a year until they were superseded by mid blue and black Marcroft Engineering ones (see Bartlett photos). The "Danger it is strictly forbidden to climb..." transfers are from Railtec sheet 6400 as those on the Molasses sheet have the writing all in red. The black maintenance panel and Minimum Curve 50 M (should be 30 M!) are also from sheet 6400.

Edited May 4, 2019 by Flood

[SHerr]

On 04/05/2019 at 20:17, Flood said:

The yellow is Railmatch 2304,  pre '84 Warning Panel Yellow. It has less of an orange tinge compared to the '84 - '03 version (2203).

 

For completeness the blue is Humbrol 15, Midnight Blue gloss. I don't know if they make a satin or matt version but I had the tin anyway and the colour seemed pretty close.

 

Like you say, most of them ended up overall brown after weathering anyway but this photo on RailScot does show some variation. Incidentally there are some very good photos on this site of these wagons including useful end detail.

https://www.railscot.co.uk/img/8/358/

 

I don't blame you for not extending the wheelbase but the blue is in line with the inner edges of the suspension hangers on the prototype so you will need to paint the demarcations 2mm further out on each one to ensure the blue to yellow ratio is the same.

 

The transfers are all Railtec apart from the blue Rail Car Services Limited ones below the Procor. I made these myself but they were only carried for about a year until they were superseded by mid blue and black Marcroft Engineering ones (see Bartlett photos). The "Danger it is strictly forbidden to climb..." transfers are from Railtec sheet 6400 as those on the Molasses sheet have the writing all in red. The black maintenance panel and Minimum Curve 50 M (should be 30 M!) are also from sheet 6400.

Many thanks for the info - having looked again my paint job isn't that good as I think the first coat was a bit thin and has run/gone blotchy so I am going to strip back and have another go. I have some pre-84 yellow so that will be fine.

 

I had seen the Railtec Transfers and used them a lot so was already going to be buying some.

[Flood]

For once I finally got round to taking some photos of the layout. Thank you to anyone who popped in to the Museum of Transport at Manchester for the show over the weekend, we certainly had a great time.

Glenn did take some videos as well, he'll be checking the quality of them before posting. I decided that as the new freight stock had been weathered by Alex in the last week then that took priority.

 

Newly finished 37110 on 6A19 Mossend - Craiginches

 

The same train but also showing our take on Sunday working, one line possession.

 

Three photos of 47477 on 6S63 Tees Yard - Craiginches, including superb weathering of the TUAs by Alex.

 

 

 

47107 on 6B84 Craiginches - Oxwellmains Blue Circle Cement company train along with 26014 on the ballast train for the possession.

 

Another new arrival! BCC French PCA as renumbered by me and beautifully weathered by Alex. All I have to do is renumber the rest of the rake so Alex can make the V tanks look as good.

 

I hope you've enjoyed this little selection. I really should try to take photos of the layout more often.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Flood

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

Very nice as ever, but that can't be Glenns dandruff all over the layout can it?

 

Mike.

[briantwigley]

Just re read the entire thread...

 

Some incredible modelling on the layout. I live in Elgin so very interested in what you’ve created, being just down the road from me (and 30 years in the past )

 

A spectacular layout with unbelievable attention to detail even down to original timetables and workings etc. A lot of inspiration to be had!

 

Keep up the good work.

 

Ryan

[Flood]

Thanks Ryan.

 

You must be short of things to do tonight if you've spent it reading this thread! We've found that the actual timetable is pretty much impossible to replicate with the revised layout but we are trying to keep the ratio of push-pull to HST services (2:1) the same when planning the sequence on the main line. Since we've started running freight traffic I've found those services far more interesting to watch compared with the passenger workings but seeing as the average viewer probably only watches for 10 mins maximum then adding in a disproportionate amount of freight means more variety for everyone.

 

The last Speedlink rake is being weathered over the next couple of weeks and we are due a test session on July 20th so hopefully I can share some more photos then.

 

We were seriously thinking of major changes this summer by making the layout double track all the way round but instead Glenn has decided to go technical instead. He's bought an NCE mini panel and, along with adding a load of block detectors, he's in the process of automating the daytime passenger services on the main line. This will mean that instead of me working out which services I want to run next and setting the points before the train starts there will be a set sequence and the next programmed train can have its route set and be departed a lot quicker giving a better flow of trains for the public. If the initial results work as planned then more block detectors can be bought and freight trains can be added to the sequence. The system has been designed so that it can have a manual over-ride (for a bit of variation) at any time. Another possibility is two trains on one fiddle yard siding with the second train moving up the siding as the first runs around the front (more block detectors again).

 

So this summer will be checking the viability of this system. Today we finished changing one point (after weathering and a dusting of snow) which had failed to work for the last 2 years so that movements into and out of the wheel lathe are back as they should be. Four fiddle yard boards are now at Glenn's for the installation of the block detectors and the adding of another crossover on one board which will help in the storing and releasing of trains.

 

So the layout is still not finished yet. On a final note the layout was 10 years old on May 30th this year, we hope to keep everyone entertained for at least another 5 years - hopefully more.

[Flood]

Well I've actually been making a model today.

 

Back in the mists of time, December 2017, I posted a list of all the stock I still had make/modify for the freight trains on Kirkhill. Please see below:

 

the PSA wagons now have lime loads

the HEA wagons need weathering Alex is doing this as I type, hopefully

the whole cement rake needs individual wagon numbers and instanter couplings (17 wagons) couplings done but not yet the numbering

the PWA fertiliser wagons need sprung buffers adding (they derailed as the buffers were too close) and strictly speaking I need to fit Gloucester fast freight bogies

one set of bogies made out of three, none fitted

the VTG slurry tank needs transfers and weathering

the two Propane tanks need to be finished and painted

the loaded OTA timber wagons need weathering Alex is doing this as I type, hopefully

the molasses tanker needs to be made

two TUA petroleum distillate wagons need to be made

a TDA china clay slurry tank needs to be made

and finally three BQW bogie bolster C wagons need Rumney Models brake gear, revised bolsters and six pipes per wagon still not added the brake gear!

 

Actually I hadn't realised how many things were still on my to-do list, oh well. The point of this post was to show the progress on the one wagon I knew I wanted to make but hadn't even started yet, the TDA china clay slurry tank.

 

TRL86895 - 86906 were made from shortened TEA chassis with barrels from Cyclohexane TTA wagons. Wagon books from around 1990 gave the new wheelbase, photos can be found on Flickr from Huw Millington and the barrel length and diameter was taken from the Barrowmore diagram of the Cyclohexane wagons (guesstimating from the wheelbase seemed to make the barrel length pretty close). A few months after a rough diagram had been drawn by myself I contacted a gentleman on Flickr who had already made this wagon and I asked if he had a copy of the official diagram. He very kindly supplied it and I found that my guesstimation of the barrel length was absolutely spot on, happy days. All I needed now was the time and the inclination, the first of which has been available of the last few months but not the latter.

 

Anyway here is what I have achieved today. Bachmann TEA taken apart, chassis shortened, barrel shortened and, after comparing this rough model to the VTG slurry tank, new bogie bosses made to lower the buffer height. Please note Alex's lovely weathering of the VTG tank.

 

 

New centre side frames from Evergreen 1/8th channel will be made next (once the packet has arrived) then the barrel support will be built up and the walkways, ladders and handrails added.

 

Here is a Huw Millington photo of a TDA next to a VTG tank to give you all an idea of the finished article

 

So, hopefully, by the next running session on July 20th I will have a moving, though far from finished, TDA. I still haven't found a decent photo of the hatch on the top so I guessed at the smaller size on the Bachmann model but I do have the two others if a photo showing a larger diameter does surface.

 

I hope you've not all been sent to sleep by this latest set of my ramblings. To finish is my dimensions diagram of the TDA in case you ever want to make one for yourself. Happy modelling.

 

Edited April 4, 2022 by Flood