Aberdeen Kirkhill T&RSD

[aasmall]

Hi Flood,

 

great work on the containers, i haven’t tackled these yet but have the FPA running empty atm.

 

For transfers the Appleby low sided air brake wagons (includes FPA) (4T36) and Russell Containers (4T15) are still available I ordered some a few weeks ago and arrived last week.

 

cheers,

 

Andy 

[Dunedin]

I haven’t posted on here for a while, but that doesn’t mean things haven’t been moving on with the Kirkhill layout whilst Graham has been busy making wagons of all shapes and sizes to run on it. 

 

I had always wanted to be able to have the layout set up in a permanent location rather than having to hire a hall each time we wanted to have a running session outside of shows. We were only ever really able to run Kirkhill at exhibitions; it was simply too large to set up anywhere at home, so the only way to test the layout was to hire a hall somewhere. We used to hire the community centre hall at Mickleover, so not only did we have the cost of hiring the hall, we also had to hire a van to get it there and back. This meant that running and testing the layout occurred on an infrequent basis and we never really had the opportunity to really ensure it was reliable. One to the things people used to comment on with the original layout was how well it ran. I was very conscious that there were some issues with the newer version and wanted to be able to improve things.

 

When my dad died in 2018, he left me some money and for the first time, I was in apposition to do something about my ambition for Kirkhill. Make no mistake, given the choice, I’d much rather have my dad still around, but he was 90 and we all have to go sometime. I decided building an extension to my garage would be a good use for part of my inheritance. Dad’s hobbies were important to him and he knew how important mine are to me, so it seemed an appropriate investment.

 

I began planning the extension in the latter part of 2019 and bought myself an AutoCAD licence so I could design the extension. I have to say that AutoCAD is not the easiest of CAD packages to use and I had to get some paid help in the end, but it was still cheaper than employing an architect. I found a builder who was able to take on the job and I also obtained a certificate of lawful development from the local council, so in July 2020 work commenced. The following photographs show the before, during and after the build. The original garage was a 1950s or 1960s construction of single skin brick and a flat roof with no insulation.

 

The original inside with part of the layout set up:

 

 

It was dim, cold and damp or scorching hot, depending on the time of year.

 

 

View from the outside as it was:

 

 

The extension is also single skin with a flat roof, but I’ve had the whole thing insulated, with heating installed and it now means that there is a really good space for the layout. In fact, I’ve worked in offices that haven’t been as good as this!

 

The inside looking from old to new - before Kirkhill went in there:

 

 

The old part of the garage - one of the doors has been blanked off inside:

 

 

The contrast with the previous interior shots still amazes me!

The original garage was about 5m square and the extension is 4m x 5m, so it gives ample space for Kirkhill, although it does pretty much fill the place. It does however mean that it can be stored securely, without it having to be in a storage depot, or in a damp garage and so will preserve it for what will hopefully be many years to come – or until the time comes to do something different anyway.

 

View from the outside:

 

What it was all about in the end - Kirkhill installed in its new home:

 

 

I just managed to get it all finished before the November lockdown; the photo above was taken on 15th November, having got everything there on 31st October!

 

There's now good access all round so we can have operating sessions whenever we want - or whenever Covid will let us anyway.

 

As Graham then reminded me, having got the layout in a permanent location, I could then get started on getting the signalling system working. More on that in a future post.

Edited December 18, 2022 by Dunedin
Re-inserted missing images.

[billywhizz]

Hi Glenn. 
The garage extension looks fantastic. I’m sure your Dad would have approved and be proud of what you have achieved. Downside is the temptation of having running sessions and less time spent working on the layout. 
Cheers.

Bill. 

Edited July 7, 2021 by billywhizz
Typo correction

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

An excellent bit of work, you'll be going off the green eyed monster scale!

Just one query, why the carpeted floor, even those tiles are dust harbourers.

 

Mike.

[Patriot87003]

Sorry to hear about the loss of your father but that’s a wonderful legacy ... and I echo what Bill and Mike have already said ... am sure he would have been proud ... and an excellent project. The upgraded garden also looks good including the path to and around the shed ... good productive lockdown projects that I’m sue will entice you to visit the shed and layout more often!

 

Hopefully Kirkhill will be back exhibiting soon as it’s one of my favourite layouts to watch for a good time ... the realism of the interesting operations, smooth running, the coaching rakes, the details, such an interesting era as well for motive power ... superb.

 

Enjoy the comforts of the upgraded shed and good luck with the signalling system project.

 

ps Regarding carpet tiles ... I have them in my shed and have never had a problem with dust. I do hoover occasionally and only rarely have to clean the track. So if my experience is anything to go by, the carpet tiles should be ok ... and comfortable to stand/kneel on for operating sessions or for layout projects.

 

 

 

 

 

[Dunedin]

Thanks for all the encouraging comments and feedback. Like I said in the post, I still can't quite believe it myself, but it's been an excellent lockdown project.

Why did I go for carpet tiles?

The floor of the original garage was in a poor condition and something needed to be done about it. The builder considered breaking up the original concrete and renewing the floor completely, but was concerned it may destabilise the walls of the garage because the details of their footings were uncertain.

You can see the poor condition of the floor here:

 

 

The most cost-effective way to deal with it was to cover the floor with a layer of Cellotex insulation which would deal with the unevenness and then top that with chipboard.

You can see the insulation laid here and the chipboard going down on top - all bonded in place, but it is effectively a floating floor:

 

 

This was the surface I was left with and I wanted something to make it less echoey and to further improve the insulation. Carpet tiles were easy, cheap and quick for me to lay myself.

 

The carpet tiles starting to go in once I'd finished the painting:

 

 

 

If I end up doing something messy out there such as cutting more wood etc. then I can either cover the tiles with plastic covers or simply lift them. To be honest, given that the layout is built now, there shouldn't be much dust to create and the tiles just seem nicer than a hard floor.

Edited December 19, 2022 by Dunedin
Re-inserted missing images.

[Flood]

Hi everyone

 

Not much of an update from me as I am in the middle of a substantial wagon conversion and it's gonna take a while.

 

One new loco added to the fleet and a few mods on one of the old locos:

 

Back at the end of April I picked up my model of 37298 from Glenn as I had realised years ago that is should have Western Region lamp brackets either side of the headcode box. One afternoon later it looked as below:

Having handed the loco back to Glenn, so he can run it on the layout, I discovered another mod that needed to be done. Quite a number of the ex Cardiff 37s still had frost grills in 1988 so I bought a set from Shawplan, painted them up, got the loco back from Glenn again and fitted them this morning. At the same time another little adornment was added:

Ewe know it makes sense

 

 

The other loco for the fleet was from an old 37235 body that had been stripped years ago. I sorted out a chassis, added some mods to the front ends and the cantrail grills and a quick spray later we have 37185:

 

 

Shawplan sealed beam etches have been added to the headcode boxes, the lenses were modded so they curved forward of the etches, headboard clips were added to No. 1 end and RSH dividers were added to the cantrail grills. I then realised I hadn't added the snowploughs yet:

 

The loco is at Alex's for weathering so will end up nice and grubby.

 

When I have something to show you all regarding the wagons I will and Glenn still has another instalment of his progress to add as well. Have fun folks and, hopefully, we will be back on the road next year.

Edited April 3, 2022 by Flood

[forest2807]

Looks fantastic, a lovely tribute to your Dad and a brilliant asset to house the layout.

A question if I may...

I'm about to upgrade my single brick skin, single detached garage (insulation, flooring, etc,) to turn it into what could be described as a hobby room or home office if I ever decided to sell the house, but it will hopefully accommodate my yet-to-be-built layout. I'm planning on replacing the existing up and over door with a side-hinged insulated door with a 1/3, 2/3 split, so it still looks like a garage from the outside, but will be totally weatherproof and completely insulated. Do you think I could get away without the insulated door to reduce costs? I wondered if you had done anything, insulation-wise, with your main garage door?

[Dunedin]

On 17/07/2021 at 17:59, forest2807 said:

Do you think I could get away without the insulated door to reduce costs? I wondered if you had done anything, insulation-wise, with your main garage door?

Thank you!

I don't have insulated doors. There were and still are two up and over doors - you can see them both here:

 

 

I decided rather than brick up the near one, it would just be sealed and blanked off internally, but remains in place, so if someone wants to reinstate it at a later date, they can. As with the walls, it has been blocked off using a wooden framework with insulation inserted and then covered with plasterboard:

 

 

From the inside, you wouldn't really know there was a door behind the new false wall, but from the outside, it looks the same as before.

 

 

The remaining door isn't insulated as you can see; it's just a standard steel door. The garage would probably be warmer in winter if it was insulated, but it isn't too bad to be honest. I have noticed that this last week, the door acts as a radiator though, because that side of the garage faces west, so gets the sun in the afternoon/evening. The insulation on the building works really well and keeps it reasonably cool until about 4 or 5pm, when you start to notice the heat increase. Insulating the door would make a difference, I'm sure, but it's only an issue when the outside temperature is above 25-27 degrees. Below that, it's fine.

Something I might try is bonding some insulation material on the inside, similar to that used on the walls. I'm sure that would be possible and certainly far cheaper than a new door, which wouldn't match the other one either!

Edited December 19, 2022 by Dunedin
Re-inserted missing images.

[Dunedin]

Thanks for all the interest in my recent posts. The next few are on the subject of automating aspects of the operation of the layout to make it easier to operate, but also hopefully more interesting to watch at exhibitions. This may get a bit "techie" in places, but hopefully, you'll bear with me and find it interesting or useful as reference. 

 

Now that I have a permanent home for Kirkhill, I have been able to start working on a few related projects for the layout that have been on the “to do” list for some time. Since the rebuild in 2016/17, there has always been an issue with keeping things moving on the main lines. The layout was originally conceived as a depot layout and it worked really well in that original form; then we decided to add the mainlines to create additional interest. As soon as we did that, it stopped being a depot layout and became another roundy-roundy layout with visitors to exhibitions expecting to see continuous running on the mainlines, never mind all the shunting in the depot. This wasn’t quite what we had intended or expected, but we were where we were so to speak and we had an issue that we needed to resolve. Some people think that if folk don’t like the way we run the layout, that’s their problem, but at the end of the day, you only get invited to exhibitions if you can put on a show that the visitors enjoy watching. Negative reviews equal fewer invitations to future shows – and remember at the time, we were only really able to run the layout at shows - so we decided something had to be done.

 

Increasing the number of trains on the mainlines means more work for the mainline and fiddle yard operators and in our case that is frequently only one person, so it was clear that some help was required. In May 2019, we took the layout to Manchester Museum of Transport. There I got talking to Steve Saxby from Sheffield and he told me about the NCE Minipanel controller. This is basically like another DCC cab, but instead of being hand-held and used by an operator, it runs macros (mini programmes) when prompted by a series of inputs on its terminals.

 

The photo shows an NCE Minipanel:

 

 

The DCC control for Kirkhill is already NCE, so this seemed to be an interesting possibility. During the show I bought a Minipanel from Digitrains. The idea I had was to automate the operation of the mainlines, so we could reduce the workload on the mainline operator and enable the depot operator to keep shunting, whilst keeping things moving for those visitors who just want to see mainline trains running past. How hard could that be? It was certainly more of a challenge than I had expected.

 

To give a brief overview of what the Minipanel can do, it can issue commands to set points or a route, address locos, set their direction and speed and then stop them again in response to an input, say from a block detector, or after a predetermined delay. It can then set another route, start a different train and eventually stop it and so on. The Minipanel is connected to the cab bus, just like any other NCE controller and issues commands via the bus to the tracks through the booster.

 

If I was going to use the Minipanel to set routes, the first thing to do was to change the control of the fiddle yard points from manual pushbutton control to DCC control. Fortunately, or so I thought at the time, I had two 8 output DCC accessory controllers from a previous layout, so the obvious solution was to reuse these. They were SMD-82 switch machine drivers made by Team Digital in the USA and the nice thing about them which set them apart from other accessory controllers at the time, was that in addition to responding to DCC commands from a cab, they also work from pushbutton inputs, so as far as an operator who was used to manual pushbutton control is concerned, the transition to DCC is seamless.

 

The two decoders are shown here during installation on to the rear panel of the fiddle yard control panel:

 

 

Under manual control, the layout just works in the same way as it always did; no having to remember accessory numbers or route numbers etc. You just push the buttons on the control panel to set the points individually. What it did mean however was that I could also group a series of points into routes which could be called up by a single command or by one pushbutton. The control panel therefore grew some additional buttons in order to call up the routes and reduce human error, whilst the same route command could be issued by the Minipanel.

 

 

 

The philosophy for operation of the layout with the Minipanel is fairly straightforward:

The Minipanel needs to be told when to start the sequence or macro, then

• It calls up the route the train is to follow
• The decoders set the route
• The Minipanel selects the loco on the train, selects the direction and speed step (just as an operator would from a cab)
• The train runs
• The block detector identifies when the train has completed its circuit and is back in the fiddle yard again
• The Minipanel stops the loco.
• The Minipanel then moves on to the next part of the sequence, sets the route and the process repeats with the next train and so on.
• At the end of the sequence, after all the trains in the sequence have run, it stops. 

The Minipanel needs prompts to know what do or which commands to issue when. It does this by having a series of input terminals – 30 of them – which, when connected to the ground terminal either by a switch or some other device such as a block detector, will ground the relevant input. When it sees the input grounded, it executes the commands associated with it.

 

Are you still with me? I hope so. More on the set up in the next few days, followed by how it turned out in reality - which of course wasn't exactly what we expected and then what I eventually did about it.

Edited December 19, 2022 by Dunedin
Re-inserted missing images.

[JeffP]

I have to admit to looking at that last photo and thinking back to the dawn of dcc, when it was described as "two wire control".

[Dunedin]

On 21/07/2021 at 09:11, JeffP said:

I have to admit to looking at that last photo and thinking back to the dawn of dcc, when it was described as "two wire control".

Absolutely. I remember Hornby's Zero 1 system which I think boasted just two wires - and of course the saying that there's no such thing as a free lunch is as true in model railways as it is in any other walk of life.

 

You either have "just a few wires" and use DCC but have to press loads of buttons to get one point to change, or you have loads of wires in order to just press one button to produce the same effect. There aren't any short cuts if you want the system to work properly. I think that whilst DCC doesn't really reduce the numbers of wires that you need, it can reduce the lengths of the wires, it enables you to do more and changes can be easier to make afterwards if you can do them by changes in software rather than having to change hard wiring.

 

In the end, it's a case of horses for courses; each to their own.

[Flood]

To add to your post Glenn, DCC removes the need for seperate isolated sections and their switches so this will cut down a little bit on the wiring and panel elements.

[Dunedin]

On to the next instalment on layout automation:

 

I wanted trains to start and finish on one of the ladder roads in the fiddle yard. This meant the fiddle yard had to be fitted with block occupation detectors, so the Minipanel could detect when a train had completed its journey round the layout. There were sufficient outputs on the SMD-82s to control five points each on the fiddle yard, plus the points which control access/egress from the up or down mainlines. This gave five fiddle yard roads on the ladder, so two trains in each direction, plus one that would run bidirectionally, so six block detectors were required.

 

The SMD-82s each have 112 configuration variables (CVs) which can be programmed to define point control, pushbutton inputs and routes, although only 34 of these on each decoder were required for the application on Kirkhill, it was still a fair amount of programming to have to do.

 

Programming the Minipanel is straightforward enough, which is just as well because the instructions in the manuals are really quite poor. As with many things, if you know what you’re doing, it’s quite easy but if you’re starting from scratch it’s a case of trial and error, looking through examples online and several versions of the manual. The impression I was left with was that the manuals were written by someone who assumes you’re already an expert!

 

In its simplest form, each input will run a macro containing 4 lines or steps of command – one command for each line, but that wouldn’t work for my application because it needed more commands. The manuals tell you that it’s possible to have “continuous memory” from a “certain input”, but they don’t tell you which input or how to define it. You can also link from one input to another to continue the commands, but each link uses up a command so that isn’t very efficient. Eventually I worked out that there is a config set up option, where you define 

• The cab bus address (everything on the bus has to have a unique cab bus address to avoid conflicts with other cabs/controllers - the address ranges for different devices are defined in the NCE PowerCab or booster manuals, so these are quire easy to determine)
• Where the continuous memory starts from - i.e. which input (the bit I couldn't figure out from the manual) 
• Whether or not you want the grounding of particular inputs to cause the Minipanel to execute the command line associated with that input (makes for more efficient programming – more of this later)
• Whether you want the Minipanel to execute a series of actions at start-up – i.e. when it is first connected to the cab bus or when you turn the layout on (again, more later).

 

The diagram below shows the set up in the fiddle yard for the sequence, which trains and locos/power cars are used, their place in the sequence, the directions of travel and the route numbers to be called up to set the routes before the trains move.

 

 

This gives a sequence of six trains – 3 in each direction – and we timed the sequence and it takes about 5 minutes to complete. This gives the operator time to take a break, or sort out the next train to run to or from the depot etc.

 

To start the sequence requires two push buttons to be pressed – these are wired in series, so both must be pressed together to begin the sequence. This avoids accidental initiation of the sequence. These are connected to Input 1 on the Minipanel and this is the only wired input that actually has a command associated with it.

The six block detectors are wired to the next 6 inputs so only the first 7 inputs have anything connected to them.

Continuous memory starts from Input 9 which is where the programme itself begins; I left Input 8 spare in case I needed to connect something else to it. The command for Input 1 simply says jump to Input 9, so when the buttons are pressed they initiate the programme. 

 

The screenshot below shows the first few lines of the programme (macro) as an illustration, with comments to explain. I decided to record it in a spreadsheet for simplicity, but the programming itself is done via a cab handset, plugged into the programming port on the Minipanel. You can also programme via JMRI, but I haven’t tried this yet.

 

 

I set all this up during the summer of 2019 and we then tested it out by hiring Mickleover Community Centre in Derby. As always, there were other jobs that needed doing on the layout, so the testing of the Minipanel was left until last, but everything appeared to work satisfactorily, so we were good to go for the next show we had booked at Shildon in early October, or so we thought!

Edited December 18, 2022 by Dunedin
Re-inserted missing images.

[Dunedin]

47 minutes ago, Flood said:

To add to your post Glenn, DCC removes the need for seperate isolated sections and their switches so this will cut down a little bit on the wiring and panel elements.

True Graham, it does, however to get the best out of DCC, you really need to wire droppers from every rail to one of the DCC power bus wires (as we did on Kirkhill), so again it's more wires, but over shorter distances. As you say though, it does avoid all that panel wiring and having to run the wires to the panel.

Edited July 22, 2021 by Dunedin
Typo correction

[Andy Keane]

17 hours ago, Dunedin said:

On to the next instalment on layout automation:

 

I wanted trains to start and finish on one of the ladder roads in the fiddle yard. This meant the fiddle yard had to be fitted with block occupation detectors, so the Minipanel could detect when a train had completed its journey round the layout. There were sufficient outputs on the SMD-82s to control five points each on the fiddle yard, plus the points which control access/egress from the up or down mainlines. This gave five fiddle yard roads on the ladder, so two trains in each direction, plus one that would run bidirectionally, so six block detectors were required.

 

The SMD-82s each have 112 configuration variables (CVs) which can be programmed to define point control, pushbutton inputs and routes, although only 34 of these on each decoder were required for the application on Kirkhill, it was still a fair amount of programming to have to do.

 

Programming the Minipanel is straightforward enough, which is just as well because the instructions in the manuals are really quite poor. As with many things, if you know what you’re doing, it’s quite easy but if you’re starting from scratch it’s a case of trial and error, looking through examples online and several versions of the manual. The impression I was left with was that the manuals were written by someone who assumes you’re already an expert!

 

In its simplest form, each input will run a macro containing 4 lines or steps of command – one command for each line, but that wouldn’t work for my application because it needed more commands. The manuals tell you that it’s possible to have “continuous memory” from a “certain input”, but they don’t tell you which input or how to define it. You can also link from one input to another to continue the commands, but each link uses up a command so that isn’t very efficient. Eventually I worked out that there is a config set up option, where you define 

• The cab bus address (everything on the bus has to have a unique cab bus address to avoid conflicts with other cabs/controllers - the address ranges for different devices are defined in the NCE PowerCab or booster manuals, so these are quire easy to determine)
• Where the continuous memory starts from - i.e. which input (the bit I couldn't figure out from the manual) 
• Whether or not you want the grounding of particular inputs to cause the Minipanel to execute the command line associated with that input (makes for more efficient programming – more of this later)
• Whether you want the Minipanel to execute a series of actions at start-up – i.e. when it is first connected to the cab bus or when you turn the layout on (again, more later).

 

The diagram below shows the set up in the fiddle yard for the sequence, which trains and locos/power cars are used, their place in the sequence, the directions of travel and the route numbers to be called up to set the routes before the trains move.

 

 

This gives a sequence of six trains – 3 in each direction – and we timed the sequence and it takes about 5 minutes to complete. This gives the operator time to take a break, or sort out the next train to run to or from the depot etc.

 

To start the sequence requires two push buttons to be pressed – these are wired in series, so both must be pressed together to begin the sequence. This avoids accidental initiation of the sequence. These are connected to Input 1 on the Minipanel and this is the only wired input that actually has a command associated with it.

The six block detectors are wired to the next 6 inputs so only the first 7 inputs have anything connected to them.

Continuous memory starts from Input 9 which is where the programme itself begins; I left Input 8 spare in case I needed to connect something else to it. The command for Input 1 simply says jump to Input 9, so when the buttons are pressed they initiate the programme. 

 

The screenshot below shows the first few lines of the programme (macro) as an illustration, with comments to explain. I decided to record it in a spreadsheet for simplicity, but the programming itself is done via a cab handset, plugged into the programming port on the Minipanel. You can also programme via JMRI, but I haven’t tried this yet.

 

 

I set all this up during the summer of 2019 and we then tested it out by hiring Mickleover Community Centre in Derby. As always, there were other jobs that needed doing on the layout, so the testing of the Minipanel was left until last, but everything appeared to work satisfactorily, so we were good to go for the next show we had booked at Shildon in early October, or so we thought!

I am hanging on your every word. I am musing on how to automate a fiddle yard without resorting to Arduino and JMRI etc and what you are doing sounds like magic!

Bring it on.

Andy

[Andy Keane]

On 23/07/2021 at 17:35, Andy Keane said:

I am hanging on your every word. I am musing on how to automate a fiddle yard without resorting to Arduino and JMRI etc and what you are doing sounds like magic!

Bring it on.

Andy

ps - I found this text in the tech ref manual:

Location 0 - 3 Cab bus address, 2-63 are OK
Location 1 - 5 Debounce timer (normally doesn’t ever need change)
Location 2 - 0 Clear all 8 memory locations for an input when programming 1=don’t
Location 3 - 0 Input number at/above which command string memory is continuous
Location 4 - 0 Input number at/above which commands will not execute if input active
Location 5 - 0 Input number than can be used to interrupt “wait” commands
Location 6 - Unused (Software version 201 when read via USB - CV7)
Location 7 - Unused (Manufacturer 11 when read via USB - CV8)
Locations 8 through 255 - 0

[Dunedin]

3 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

ps - I found this text in the tech ref manual:

Location 0 - 3 Cab bus address, 2-63 are OK
Location 1 - 5 Debounce timer (normally doesn’t ever need change)
Location 2 - 0 Clear all 8 memory locations for an input when programming 1=don’t
Location 3 - 0 Input number at/above which command string memory is continuous
Location 4 - 0 Input number at/above which commands will not execute if input active
Location 5 - 0 Input number than can be used to interrupt “wait” commands
Location 6 - Unused (Software version 201 when read via USB - CV7)
Location 7 - Unused (Manufacturer 11 when read via USB - CV8)
Locations 8 through 255 - 0

Agreed.

There were three manuals that I found which were useful for my purposes, but still not comprehensive enough:

• The Minipanel manual
• The technical reference manual (but after 12 years, this is still in draft! Come on NCE; get it issued properly!)
• The Minipanel examples or Minipanel Autoprogram

for the benefit of others following this, references are here:

https://ncedcc.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/categories/200170015-Automation-Detection-and-Software

 

I found the autoprogram or examples reference was essential to understand what the manuals themselves were attempting to explain. Like I said, if you understand what the ting does, or if you have someone to explain the basics to you, then maybe the manuals are self-explanatory. I didn't find that easy to follow myself though, but I eventually got it along with some trial and error.

 

To be fair to NCE, this is a little similar to someone buying a computer which can do an infinite number of things and then moaning that the manual that came with the computer doesn't tell you how to use the CAD package with it that you also bought to run on it!

Having said that, a little more information on exactly what the configuration values really mean would have been useful, but maybe that's just me!

[Dunedin]

To continue the story:

 

The set up for the Shildon show went well on the Friday, so we were looking forward to the Saturday and our chance to show off with more trains being run by fewer operators. What is it they say about pride coming before a fall?

 

The layout set up at Shildon on the Friday night, ready for its big day:

 

Within the first hour, disaster struck! One of the points failed to set during one of the route setting parts of the macro, so a train set off and derailed. It soon became clear that one of our fancy SMD82 switch machine drivers had got its CVs corrupted and we were unable to change most of the points at one end of the fiddle yard, either using DCC commands or via the pushbuttons. The pushbuttons still need the decoders to be working. I spent Saturday afternoon with the control panel in bits, soldering iron in hand, re-wiring the panel to work directly by the pushbuttons and the CDU, which had been retained for those points that weren’t to be part of the automated sequence. Not the best way to run a model railway at an exhibition.

Thanks must go to Graham and Alex for keeping some things running at least, whilst I was trying to fix the fiddle yard.

Quite surprisingly, we actually won the trophy for Best in Show on Sunday afternoon, so what seemed to me to have been a disaster can’t have been as obvious as I thought it was!

 

Once we got the layout back in storage, I set about trying to understand what had happened.

 

Trying to unpick the rats nest I had made on the Saturday afternoon:

 

I got in touch with Team Digital to ask advice on the reliability of the SMD82s. They told me that there was an issue with the software versions on both of mine. One was V16, the other V17. Apparently, anything below V18 was vulnerable to corruption during power-down. Interestingly, we had had a short circuit caused by an operator error, just before the problem occurred. During a short circuit, the DCC circuit breaker operates and shuts down the track power; the decoders were connected to the track for power and commands, so they lost power as a result. The protection in the circuit attempts to reset and re-establish power again after about a second. If the short is still there, which usually it will be whilst the operator works out what has happened, the system will power down again. A second later, the process repeats, so the decoders experience repeated shutdowns and if they are susceptible to crashes during a power down cycle, a short circuit is almost guaranteed to cause one. Shorts are also more likely during exhibitions due to operators working under pressure, so we had the conditions for the perfect storm, which of course, we got!

 

Team Digital offered to provide new chips loaded with new, reliable software (for a price), but given that one of the decoders had a failed output, I decided upgrading to the later version – the SMD84 – was a better option. I bought two from Tony’s Train Exchange in the US.

 

We had another show coming up at Taunton later the same October and I just managed to replace the decoder which had failed with one of the new ones in time – and get the CVs programmed in it. The SMD84s have even more CVs to programme – 256 this time. I decided to take a chance on the other SMD82, which hadn’t failed at Shildon, lasting through the Taunton show. Off we went, hoping once again to be able to use our automated system.

 

Testing the fiddle yard in the kitchen, prior to Taunton. Prior to extending the garage, this was the extent of testing that I could do at home:

 

 

At least this time, it had the decency to fail whilst we were testing it on the Friday evening after setting up. This time, it was the V16 software that went belly up – again after an operator error induced a short. This time I was ready for it though! I had taken the precaution to wire in a couple of changeover switches and an extra couple of Sub-D connectors which meant I could quickly revert to manual CDU control.

 

Modification made prior to Taunton. By splitting the sub-D connector and changing two switches, the pushbuttons worked through the original CDU and connected to the board via the right hand half of the connector pair:

 

Taunton was the last show we went to before Covid-19 turned the world on its head, so nothing changed until I got the layout set up in its new home last November. At that point, I got the second new SMD84 decoder installed and programmed, so once again, I could test it out and try to break it under more relaxed conditions. I also used my spare NCE SB5 booster as a dumb booster to provide a dedicated separate power supply to the decoders, so a short on the tracks, doesn’t shut down the SMD84s.

I still managed to break it!

 

What I found was that occasionally, a point doesn’t throw due to mechanical resistance. If you’re running the layout manually, you notice and press the button again. Nine times out of ten that will fix the issue, but when it was running automatically, the system didn’t have the ability to check that the route had set before starting the next train. There was just a delay in the macro to give the route time to set, but the assumption was that it would do so. Clearly that assumption was unreliable.

Edited December 18, 2022 by Dunedin
Re-inserted missing images.

[Dunedin]

On 23/07/2021 at 17:35, Andy Keane said:

I am hanging on your every word. I am musing on how to automate a fiddle yard without resorting to Arduino and JMRI etc and what you are doing sounds like magic!

Bring it on.

Andy

Thank you Andy!

It's not often someone hangs on my every word - hopefully I can continue to share useful experience with you and others.

[Andy Keane]

2 hours ago, Dunedin said:

Thank you Andy!

It's not often someone hangs on my every word - hopefully I can continue to share useful experience with you and others.

This is really helpful - especially the glitches. I am about to comit to this stuff as I don't want to write loads of Arduino code or JMRI stuff so its great to follow in somebodies footsteps like this.

One question I have. Have you thought about programmes that are not tied to particular locos? As I see it you set your program up and if you want a different loco to run the program you either have to reprogram the loco(s) or the min-panel. In a fiddle yard for example it would be nice to have a standard run-around for any loco.

regards

Andy

[Dunedin]

On 25/07/2021 at 16:19, Andy Keane said:

One question I have. Have you thought about programmes that are not tied to particular locos? As I see it you set your program up and if you want a different loco to run the program you either have to reprogram the loco(s) or the min-panel. In a fiddle yard for example it would be nice to have a standard run-around for any loco.

regards

Andy

Andy,

I'm pleased that our lessons learned are of use. It didn't feel good at the time, but as they say: every day is a school day.

 

I've been giving some thought to your question about needing dedicated locos. The way we have things set up, there is a day time and a night time sequence and each has its own dedicated locos and a dedicated Minipanel. They are housed in boxes with an RS232 connection to link them with the control panel. The one in the blue box is for day time, whilst the one in the black box is for night time. Nicely poke yoke, but it's important to get the right loco on the right road. The thing about DCC is that wherever the loco is on the layout, if the Minipanel commands it to move, it will move whether you want it to or not!

 

With DCC as most people know, you drive a loco by its number, so in our sequence, this is programmed into the macro that the Minipanel runs. There is another way though and I've just been and tested it and it works:

Within the Minipanel macro, it would be possible to set up dummy loco numbers  - 1, 2, 3, etc. These can be the loco numbers that get coded into the program. You would then pick which loco you wanted where in the sequence and then consist it with the appropriate dummy loco. With advanced consisting, the consisting data is written into the loco decoders, so the DCC control system neither knows nor cares if all the locos in a consist are there or not. This means that the dummy loco is invisible to the system. DCC systems allocate a unique number to each consist. With the NCE SB5 booster (and Powercab) this is in the range 112 - 127, so 16 consists. With some systems, you have to drive using the consist number, but with NCE you can drive using either of the loco numbers. This means you can drive using the dummy number regardless of whether it really exists or not. If the Minipanel is programmed with the dummy loco numbers, this would work.

 

You would have to remember to cancel the consist if you wanted to use the loco elsewhere on the layout and replace it with another in the consist, but this would avoid having to have dedicated locos to avoid reprogramming the Minipanel.

 

There may be another way of doing this, but I can't think of it just now. Hope it helps.

[Andy Keane]

As Baldrick would say a cunning plan. Yes I get this and it would meen just setting consists. My aim has been to automate my Helston fiddle yard.

 

In the following diagram S is a laser sensor, O is a current occupancy sensor and D is a magnetic de-coupler. "A "could be a DCC Concepts auto stop if I had their decoders which might help stopping accuracy, but ignore this for now.

And then this is my operating logic:

1) a train enters from Helston at the right-hand side and is directed into Road 6 via points 1&2  and then on to Run-around 2 via point 17, this triggers the current sensors in Road 6 and then in the run-around header. We need it to slow and is stop so the coupling is over the de-coupler.

2) we operate the de-coupler (a Kadee system)

3) we shunt slowly backwards until the rear of the train reaches the laser sensor in Road 6 near point 2 when we stop

4) we head to the left again leaving behind the carriages/wagons, but we now know where the RH end of this string of stock is

5) we run through point 17 and trigger the current sensor and again are stoped

6) the points are reset and we run back down Road 4 which we keep clear as a run-around loop and then back onwards into the entry road where we trigger an occupancy sensor and stop

7) we reset points 1&2 and run slowly to the left knowing where the carriages are, gently buffering into them to re-couple

8) the newly formed service leaves back towards Helston.

 

Ideally we can do this for roads 2,3,5 and 6 and for any loco using your consist trick.

 

What do you think - the key is stopping accurately over the coupler and using a laser sensor to position the stock. Maybe I need laser sensors in the run-around heads to position accurately over the decouplers too.

regards

Andy

[Andy Keane]

37 minutes ago, Dunedin said:

Andy,

I'm pleased that our lessons learned are of use. It didn't feel good at the time, but as they say: every day is a school day.

 

I've been giving some thought to your question about needing dedicated locos. The way we have things set up, there is a day time and a night time sequence and each has its own dedicated locos and a dedicated Minipanel. They are housed in boxes with an RS232 connection to link them with the control panel. The one in the blue box is for day time, whilst the one in the black box is for night time. Nicely poke yoke, but it's important to get the right loco on the right road. The thing about DCC is that wherever the loco is on the layout, if the Minipanel commands it to move, it will move whether you want it to or not!

 

With DCC as most people know, you drive a loco by its number, so in our sequence, this is programmed into the macro that the Minipanel runs. There is another way though and I've just been and tested it and it works:

Within the Minipanel macro, it would be possible to set up dummy loco numbers  - 1, 2, 3, etc. These can be the loco numbers that get coded into the program. You would then pick which loco you wanted where in the sequence and then consist it with the appropriate dummy loco. With advanced consisting, the consisting data is written into the loco decoders, so the DCC control system neither knows nor cares if all the locos in a consist are there or not. This means that the dummy loco is invisible to the system. DCC systems allocate a unique number to each consist. With the NCE SB5 booster (and Powercab) this is in the range 112 - 127, so 16 consists. With some systems, you have to drive using the consist number, but with NCE you can drive using either of the loco numbers. This means you can drive using the dummy number regardless of whether it really exists or not. If the Minipanel is programmed with the dummy loco numbers, this would work.

 

You would have to remember to cancel the consist if you wanted to use the loco elsewhere on the layout and replace it with another in the consist, but this would avoid having to have dedicated locos to avoid reprogramming the Minipanel.

 

There may be another way of doing this, but I can't think of it just now. Hope it helps.

ps - I assume you had considered one of the computer based automation programs and rejected that approach?

[Dunedin]

3 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

What do you think - the key is stopping accurately over the coupler and using a laser sensor to position the stock. Maybe I need laser sensors in the run-around heads to position accurately over the decouplers too.

regards

Andy

I know the consisting trick will work because I've tested it and I might even use it on Kirkhill.

 

I think your proposal is certainly more ambitious than mine, but I understand the concept and it should be possible to get it to work. The challenge I can see you having is getting consistent performance from different locos and therefore getting them all to stop accurately in the same place. I'm sure you can get the same loco to stop accurately with some trial and error - repeatability, but I think the challenge is achieving reproducibility with different locos. I find that even what appear to be identical locos, with apparently identical decoders, with the same CV settings still behave differently. Finding decoders with the same version number is also a struggle - we use Lenz Standards on our Heljan Class 47s and there are umpteen different versions of Standard decoder and they all behave differently, not to mention differences in performance of individual locos. I've started using Zimo decoders on the HST power cars so I can consist them reproducibly - CV95 is a reverse trim that assists with speed matching, but even then, accelerations can vary through the speed range.

I've tried playing with the CV for constant braking distance but unsuccessfully so far.

Another option which is similar to analogue would be to use a relay to cut the track power to the section where you want to stop. That would stop your train dead and probably always in the same place, whatever the loco. If it's in a fiddle yard, a dead stop shouldn't matter provided its at low speed because you're after accuracy, not realism.

Something to consider is that you have quite a few sensors - 15 if I counted correctly? Each of these will use up a Minipanel input and there are 30 inputs, so that's half of them. If you program using continuous memory, you will be starting from Input 16 - maybe 17 if you need an input to trigger the start of the sequence like I do, so you would have 14 inputs left for programming, that's only 56 lines of macro. Selecting and starting a loco uses two lines of macro; stopping it uses a third.

I think you may find that to control your whole fiddle yard is beyond the capacity of one Minipanel. You can of course add another and possibly a third. NCE Powercab or Smart Boosters will drive up to six cabs (addresses 2-7) and three accessories such as USB interface, Minipanels etc. (addresses 8-10). This means the maximum number of Minipanels in use at any one time is three, provided you aren't using a USB interface or other accessory on the cab bus.

I use a second Minipanel to control the signalling - to be the subject of a later post and I use the USB interface so I can drive locos using my phone via JMRI.

There is another trick you can use - which I did to get around lack of capacity in the Minipanel, which is to use macros in the NCE cab/booster system to control accessories and then use the Minipanel to call up the macros. This will save you some lines of code in the Minipanel, but the number of macros is limited to 16 and each macro can control up to eight accessories. I'll cover that in a later post regarding signalling and route setting too, but hopefully it gives you an idea of how you can manage a series of trade-offs between decoder route setting, Minipanel macros and system macros to achieve what you're trying to do.

 

Is it easier than using an Arduino? I don't know to be honest because I haven't tried that. I have a Raspberry Pi which I got for the signalling project, but that seemed too much like hard work. Certainly the programming interface for the NCE bits is easier because it's all menu-driven, but it probably has more limitations.

Incidentally, I use the Pi along with the USB interface to run JMRI so I can use smartphones as wireless cabs.

 

Hope this helps.