When the last train is cancelled

[RfDforever]

Thanks for all the responses. It's interesting that ones relating to other franchises refer to the response of platform or station staff. In the case of the former, I have never seen any on LM. For station staff, Coventry, Rugby and Milton Keynes have only Virgin Trains staff as far as I can tell; and once the booking office closes at Northampton there's just the security man so I'm still a little wary that there may be any staff about to organise a bus.

The discussion also mentions rail replacement buses more generally, and an experience I had in the 1960's may be of interest. With a fellow spotter, I travelled to Doncaster one Sunday to join an RCTS organised works visit. Returning South, we were travelling (by dmu) towards Sheffield when the train was terminated (I forget where) and we boarded a Rotherham Corporation double deck bus for the section to Masboro'. Now buses are slower than trains and you may need to hurry to catch the forward connection  when the bus arrives; but I was mildly surprised that when we turned into the station people were really rushing down the stairs, pushing others out of the way (we were downstairs). Then glass fell past the windows, followed by light metal then some big heavy castings. Puzzling at first. What had happened was that Masborough had a rather splendid cast iron and glass porch over the road entrance presumably designed in the days of horse drawn coaches. Of course Victorian architects planned it to clear the height of horse drawn carriages but not double deck buses...

[phil-b259]

Thanks for all the responses. It's interesting that ones relating to other franchises refer to the response of platform or station staff. In the case of the former, I have never seen any on LM. For station staff, Coventry, Rugby and Milton Keynes have only Virgin Trains staff as far as I can tell; and once the booking office closes at Northampton there's just the security man so I'm still a little wary that there may be any staff about to organise a bus.

 

 

Train running Control - which includes representatives of the TOCs with the power to authorise taxis and with lists of contact numbers are there 24/7!

 

In fact the organisation of buses is not left in the hands of station staff even when they are around - that is better done from Control rather than hassled station staff trying to do that as well as their other duties (though if it is just a case of organising a taxi and the station has a cab rank then it might be left for them to organise following authorisation)

 

Just because passengers services stop running doesn't mean no-body is around.

 

Thus if no staff are present at the station you are waiting on then you should activate the help point (I think all stations have to have one now) to alert the TOC you require assistance.

[ColinK]

Has anyone stopped to ask the question; when the trains stop running without any notice eg due to staff shortage, line blocked by tree, wires down, lorry hits bridge or many other reasons, just where do you find buses/coaches and drivers? Even more difficult if you want a bus driver who knows where every railway station is and where the station pick up/set down point is, not forgetting knowing which roads you can get a bus down (think of low bridges, low trees, corners you can't get a large vehicle round, hump back bridges you can't get over etc).

[andania 213]

In a sort of similar vein, in December last year was travelling from Manchester to Hull on a pre booked advance ticket.

The services I was to travel on being a Liverpool - York as far as Leeds, then change onto the Leeds to Hull service, both services being Tpex .

 

Now, the timetabled gap for the changeover at Leeds was IIRC 22 minutes. Therefore, when the L'ppol -Yk turned up 15 minutes down, I did feel a tad concerned. The reasons given over the PA were staff shortage. Anyhow, no probs thought I, I'll ask the conductor re the connection when he checks my ticket.   

Anyhow, the journey went on, and by the Dewsbury stop, it'd lost another 5 minutes, also we'd had no show from the conductor. By that time, I was resigning myself to problems. Anyway, we rolled in 20 minutes late at Leeds. Very fortunately, the Hull train was just across the platform, jumped aboard, was much relieved, and seconds after the York service went, we followed it as far as Micklefield.

 

Crunch for me came when the Conductor on the Hull service came round, and I asked what would have happened if the train from Manchester had been another few minutes down, ie not getting to Leeds in time for folk to catch the Hull train, which, in this case, was the last of the day.

 

His response, though very friendly and polite, alarmed me. In essence, he said that there were no such thing as guaranteed connections any more, and that effectively if iId missed that train, it was my tough luck. Hmm, this is useful info I thought !!. The same TOC having almost stranded me on 2 previous occasions, It didn't add to my confidence when travelling with them. 

 

Now, had I missed the connection, I certainly would have made a bee line to any Tpex staff, or helpline and pointedly ask what they were going to do to resolve their mess up of their making. ISTR I would have been one of several stranded folk had things not gone right. However, luck prevailed, so It's still an unknown as to what form any help given ( if any ) would have taken.

 

Ultimately, Does anyone know the situation regarding missing connections when it's not your fault / same TOC ?, I'd love to know.

Meanwhile, In future, the latest Tpex services I'll be booking will be the penultimate ones of the day, not the last ones !!

    . 

Ta in advance for any info

 

Ken G

[caradoc]

Ken G, the Guard is completely wrong - There may not be guaranteed connections but there are advertised connections; As long as you have allowed the minimum time stated for connecting (which varies depending on the size and complexity of the station), you are entitled to transport if your connection is broken.

 

Edit; It is the duty of the Train Operator whose train was late to deal with stranded passengers; On occasion this can be quite complex, eg Scotrail trying to arrange transport home for a passenger in London because their service into Edinburgh missed the last Anglo-Scottish service with a connection onwards down south.

Edited October 31, 2017 by caradoc

[caradoc]

Thanks for all the responses. It's interesting that ones relating to other franchises refer to the response of platform or station staff. In the case of the former, I have never seen any on LM. For station staff, Coventry, Rugby and Milton Keynes have only Virgin Trains staff as far as I can tell; and once the booking office closes at Northampton there's just the security man so I'm still a little wary that there may be any staff about to organise a bus.

 

 

The staffing of stations (other than the major stations managed by Network Rail) is determined by which Train Operator runs the station, however it shouldn't make any difference as the Operator responsible for onward travel if a last connection is missed is whoever ran the late train, which may in extreme cases have been several hours earlier and hundreds of miles away ! The process is that when a delayed passenger makes contact with the Train Operator, either via station staff or a Help Point, that Operator will arrange transport if it is their issue, if not they should advise the responsible Operator to deal with the matter.

[Gwiwer]

The legal position has been partially outlined above. There is a contract between you, the passenger, and the TOC for them to get you from where you are to your ticketed destination by the most expedient means. An implied contract exists for those waiting to board at stations where ticket purchse is not possible (even though it may be in advance of travel) and the same conditions apply.

 

Buses last thing at night are seldom an option unless in a major city where parallel, or close and reasonable alternative, bus routes exist. Taxis have to be authorised by "Control" for any distance AFAIK and are no longer at the discretion of the nearest ASM.

 

If transport cannot be arranged then there is also a requirement that the TOC make arrangements to accommodate you overnight at their expense and including the cost of reasonable meals.

 

On the very rare occasions when it has not been possible for an overnight sleeping car service to run the passengers have been permitted to sleep in their booked accommodation at the platform (and transported to it if waiting along the route) then transported by first morning service.

 

There are indeed no guaranteed connections now. But so long as you allow at least the minimum allowance advertised in the timetable for any necessary change of trains then these conditions apply if your first train was delayed causing you to miss the last connecting service to your destination.

 

In any case where a last train does not run the means to assist must be reasonable. Efforts to procure a coach if the last Euston - Northampton stopper doesn't run are reasonable because London is one place where you might find a coach available at short notice. But if the last Central Wales train is cancelled the what is reasonable at remote locations such as Sugar Loaf would be a bit different. And for those locations without road access such as Dovey Junction, IBM Halt or Lympstone Commando then a walk of some distance might be reasonable in order to first reach the nearest road.

 

If stranded at an unstaffed location activate the platform help point.

Edited October 31, 2017 by Gwiwer

[corneliuslundie]

A less happy incident was a trip a couple of years ago from Newtown to Aberystwyth. We had been told before we got on the train that it was being terminated at Machynlleth because of late running (an hour) caused if I remember correctly by waitiing for an ambulance at Telford. When we got on the train and through the journey the announcements were that a bus would be waiting for is at Machynlleth.

When we got there: no bus. We had to wait an hour and eventually arrived only a couple of minutes ahead of the train due two hours after ours.

The irony was that there is a bus garage (Lloyds Coaches who run the Machynlleth-Newtown stagecoach service) visible from the station approach road with buses sitting in it. But I don't think they have the Arriva contract so the bus had to come miles to pick us up.

Jonathan

[andania 213]

Cheers for the advice gents, most useful.

 

I'll be doing a similar journey in the next month or so, so I'll be checking up on the advised transfer time pronto, forewarned and all that!! 

 

Still think I'll be going by the penultimate services though, just in case!!

 

Rgds

Ken G

 

[phil-b259]

Cheers for the advice gents, most useful.

 

I'll be doing a similar journey in the next month or so, so I'll be checking up on the advised transfer time pronto, forewarned and all that!!

 

 

If you plan your journey on the National Rail website (or ask the ticket office to give you an itinary) then all the minimum connection times will be built in. If a station has a minimum connection time of 5 minutes the NR systems will NEVER give you journey options which have the arrival of one train and the departure of the next at 4minutes or less.

 

Knowledgable passengers or those doing regular trips soon become used to which platforms they need to move between when changing trains and can sometimes use that knowledge to catch an earlier service as a result. This of course does have the potential to cause issues if trains are replatformed and you have gone to the wrong one, or simply dive on board in your haste to make a unrecognised connection.

Edited October 31, 2017 by phil-b259

[andania 213]

If you plan your journey on the National Rail website (or ask the ticket office to give you an itinary) then all the minimum connection times will be built in. If a station has a minimum connection time of 5 minutes the NR systems will NEVER give you journey options which have the arrival of one train and the departure of the next at 4minutes or less.

 

Knowledgable passengers or those doing regular trips soon become used to which platforms they need to move between when changing trains and can sometimes use that knowledge to catch an earlier service as a result. This of course does have the potential to cause issues if trains are replatformed and you have gone to the wrong one, or simply dive on board in your haste to make a unrecognised connection.

 

 

Strangely enough, in all instances I've done this journey, my tickets/journey were booked/planned not just through the NR website, but via Tpex's own site !!! 

 

As you very rightly intimate, you don't get journey options that don't have the necessary connection time when booking thro'; these sites. 

 

The crux of it, as in all things, is I suppose, what happens to sort it out when things don't go as they ought to.. Must admit, in all the travelling on Rail I've done since 1973, ( an awful lot ) I've yet to be actually stranded, I must be very lucky  ( though I am well aware of the phrase 'Railtour standard time! ) 

 

I'm quite a frequent traveller on this route, and fortunately, quite well up on likely stop points, & where the connection will go from. However, that also means I'm well up on the way that they love to 'change' platforms at Leeds at the drop of a hat !!!, stopping at say, 9a, instead of 9d . With through platforms split a-d, long enough to  accommodate 2 HST's nose to tail, plus a bit, that means a bit of a trek  via 'b' and 'c' if you've got to get your skates on!!

To add to the fun, you'll only get advised of the platform 'change' if you're actually on the platform. Not exactly helpful if you're on the train that's arriving at it, and needing, through such circumstances to then make a swift transfer!!!. 

Glad I'm still able to shift when needed

 

Ken G

[royaloak]

If you plan your journey on the National Rail website (or ask the ticket office to give you an itinary) then all the minimum connection times will be built in. If a station has a minimum connection time of 5 minutes the NR systems will NEVER give you journey options which have the arrival of one train and the departure of the next at 4minutes or less.

 

Knowledgable passengers or those doing regular trips soon become used to which platforms they need to move between when changing trains and can sometimes use that knowledge to catch an earlier service as a result. This of course does have the potential to cause issues if trains are replatformed and you have gone to the wrong one, or simply dive on board in your haste to make a unrecognised connection.

You get some clever passengers who sort out their itineraries with much shorter connections than allowed and then go moaning to the staff about their missed connections, some staff are now pointing out the incorrect 'connection' time the pax have allowed and basically telling them (politely) to do one, if they have been daft enough to allow themselves less than the minimum connection time onto the last train then the railways are under no obligation to get you to your destination, worth bearing in mind when working out those last trains home.

 

Sometimes knowledge is a dangerous thing because it leads to assumptions and we all know never to assume anything! 

[ColinK]

The irony was that there is a bus garage (Lloyds Coaches who run the Machynlleth-Newtown stagecoach service) visible from the station approach road with buses sitting in it. But I don't think they have the Arriva contract so the bus had to come miles to pick us up.

Jonathan

Its not just a bus that's needed, but also a driver. There are very strict rules on driver's hours and you would not want to risk breaking the rules and losing your licence and your job. To add to the complexity, there are different rules for driving buses (UK rules) and coaches (EU rules). A rail replacement service comes under EU rules. Many bus drivers never do any coach driving as it messes up their normal work.

[duncan]

Not directly connected with rail replacement buses, but an example anyway.  Years ago when I lived in Edinburgh, a small (cowboy ?) operator decided to put on old small hopper type buses to compete on the same routes as the large well maintained council ones, but at a lower fare following bus deregulation.  Anyway, on the first morning along comes the shabby wee bus overtaking the big bus.  Some of us decide to try it and get on, driver has no clue of fares & we have to explain where the stops are on his fare chart. 

 

Then at the first big junction we notice he has taken a wrong turning.  On pointing this out to the driver, he explains he has never driven the route, doesn't know where he is going & was told by the owner to follow the council bus of the same number. & where possible overtake it to get to a busy stop first.  He was shocked to discover that the "A" bus went a slightly different route at some points from the "B" bus.  After a couple of weeks, the wee buses disappeared.

 

Must be a lot of fun driving the rail replacement busses, especially on a dark night !  I know nowadays, the drivers will have been properly briefed.

[Bernard Lamb]

You get some clever passengers who sort out their itineraries with much shorter connections than allowed and then go moaning to the staff about their missed connections, some staff are now pointing out the incorrect 'connection' time the pax have allowed and basically telling them (politely) to do one, if they have been daft enough to allow themselves less than the minimum connection time onto the last train then the railways are under no obligation to get you to your destination, worth bearing in mind when working out those last trains home.

 

Sometimes knowledge is a dangerous thing because it leads to assumptions and we all know never to assume anything!

I find some of the official connections are rather tight.

Changing from local to main line at Peterborough for example. I have purchased through tickets and when I have seen the allowance down to about 7 minutes I have taken the previous train and given myself 37 minutes. On the other hand an official 7 minutes connection time at Watford Junction is ample. I find it usually pays to assume that the train you are on will be late and the one you are going to connect with will be on time.

Bernard

[D854_Tiger]

Some interesting observations on replacement bus services, If I may add some; A couple of years ago my daughter was travelling from Tonbridge to Strood, and the last train was cancelled (due to Signaller shortage !) The Driver of the replacement bus did not have a clue where they were going, not being local (either to the area or indeed the UK). The passengers had to direct the driver. And on Sundays 5th and 12th of November the line between Cathcart and Neilston is closed for engineering work; The train takes 17 minutes for this journey, the replacement bus takes 47 ! (every station being on a different main road). Such a time differential also partly explains the difficulty of replacing trains with buses, particularly for an unplanned incident.

 

I bet a bus replacement over Rannoch Moor is a bit of a b****r.

[Gwiwer]

I bet a bus replacement over Rannoch Moor is a bit of a b****r.

It would be for anyone requiring or waiting at Corrour

[JDW]

With apologies in advance for going slightly off topic, the issue of replacement buses has come up a fair bit, so I hope people won't mind me commenting and explaining things from the bus side a little.  In the same way that we as enthusiasts get frustrated with passengers for not understanding how the railway works, the same is true with buses.  As someone above mentioned, there may be a bus depot and buses visible from the station.  For the sake of example let's say it is a small company with 5 buses.  They might have 3 full time drivers, plus various part timers or office staff who drive now and again.  Their bread and butter is likely to be schools, and if they need 5 buses the morning after, they can't and won't cancel that to take a train load of passengers home.  They neither have the resources to cover the job, nor to cover the schools n the morning if they took the job.  Drivers hours rules can't be broken, and it often simply isn't possible to find a driver from thin air, no more than when a train driver is delayed on an oncoming working and people start asking why there aren't any other drivers around just in case.

 

Plus, NR/TOC control rooms have numbers for companies to contact, who they know and trust to do the work.  Ringing the local operator about whom they know nothing might not be the best move, when they have reputable companies on their list of contacts.  As well as that, it is often easier to deal with one bus operator than try and phone lots of little ones.

 

The company I work for does lots of rail replacement work in the north east of Scotland.  In many cases, though, it isn't all done by us, and we'll take on the contract, figure out what we need, then if extra coaches and drivers are needed, hire them in, but we'll all be working together regardless of what is painted on the side of the bus. 

If its planned, we'll have a schedule, and usually have looked at routes, roads, problems, etc beforehand, and there'll be a note in the schedule warning of any hazards.  Of course, on the ground, things can look very different to the map, things may have changed, there may be a problem en route.  We have to try and do as best we can in unfamiliar territory.  

If it's unplanned, it might be a case of get there quick, and do our best - at such times, rather than assume that the driver knows every station car park and back road, it's often much better to work with the passengers, ask for help if needed, because at the end of the day, they want to get home and you want to get them there!

Since we are a large company, we have the advantage when it comes to getting drivers, as we can at very short notice switch coach drivers to rail work, and then get bus drivers in to cover their schools/contract jobs as overtime at short notice.  Despite how it sometimes looks (chaos) it is usually well organised, at least in theory!

 

As far as tickets go, from a personal/driver's perspective, I wouldn't refuse anyone without a ticket if it came to it, but I would point them towards the member of staff who is normally present, or the ticket machine.  From my point of view, I'd check their tickets if there was no staff member checking as they boarded to make sure they were on the right bus, more than anything else!  The last rail replacement I did, I carried a couple of people for nothing.  They turned up, a couple, pram, dag, to catch a train, and found us waiting there.  Two coaches.  They were clearly having a bad day, and after a bit of to-ing and fro-ing, we decided (drivers and station staff) just to let them on - sometimes keeping their goodwill is as important as getting their money.

 

On another occasion, I was the last replacement coach at Stonehaven, waiting to meet the last train to Aberdeen around midnight.  With me was a coach from a Dundee operator, also waiting to do the same trip.  The station staff had spoken to the guard, there were about 44 people on the train including staff, he said, so speaking to the other coach driver, we agreed he would just head home south to Dundee, no point us both heading north, when I'm going that way anyway.   It turned out the guard had mis-counted.  I left with every seat full, and the train guard sat in the courier seat... 

[Shropshire Lad]

It's also worth remembering the problem with split ticketing (off topic I know) If you split your journey A-B, B-C, C-D it is your responsibility to arrive at C before the last train leaves. you are fine if the train is cancelled and you were there to catch it as you have a valid ticket but  a late running train earlier in your journey is no different than say a missed bus or road traffic incident causing your late arrival at the station in this instance. Your first two contracts have been fulfilled but you will have defaulted on the third one. You will be able to claim for the delayed train  from the affected TOC if your train was late enough but they won't have a responsibilty to get you to your final destination.

[duncan]

Ok a wee question, normally pre-planned replacement buses don't take large luggage, prams or bicycles, what happens in the last train cancelled scenario if you have one of said ?

[Gwiwer]

Ok a wee question, normally pre-planned replacement buses don't take large luggage, prams or bicycles, what happens in the last train cancelled scenario if you have one of said ?

Very much a case of individual circumstances being considered. I have seen bicycles carefully stowed into the luggage holds of coaches during unscheduled road replacements. I have seen cyclists told to ride (a fairly short distance) because their bikes would not fit onto a bus.

 

There is a limit to the amount of luggage a passenger may bring onto a train though very few would even approach it. Such luggage would have to be conveyed with the passenger or by a reasonable means at a closely similar time such as by van. Prams normally fold small enough to go into coach luggage lockers and all buses should now have space for at least one.

 

Vans are often provided for luggage, bikes, etc. during major planned works and were used during the rebuilding of the Ness River bridge when that was washed away. Double deck buses conveyed the passengers to Dingwall during that blockade.

 

Where taxis are used the drivers are usually quite adept at managing larger items but if needs be another vehicle might need to also be used.

 

What is reasonable will differ from place to place. Cancel the last Glasgow - London train with two bikes reserved on board and the best option might be to use any available space on the lowland sleeper before offering hotels. Cancel the last all-stations-to-Worthing train from Brighton and most users could be found taxis readily with any bikes carried in a maxi-taxi if the owners chose to not ride home.

[ColinK]

Ok a wee question, normally pre-planned replacement buses don't take large luggage, prams or bicycles, what happens in the last train cancelled scenario if you have one of said ?

From my experience it depends on what sort of vehicle is provided. If its a bus, it should have dedicated space for baby buggy, wheelchair etc, may be some space for luggage but nothing for cycles. If its a coach, then there are large lockers underneath giving plenty of space for luggage, folded prams, usually plenty of room for bikes too.

[corneliuslundie]

Thanks for the very informative responses about buses. I am aware of the difficulties of finding buses at short notice, though in the case I mentioned Arriva had had two hours to organise something, and it was the fact that we were being told confidently for two hours that a bus would be waiting for us that was annoying. In fact we have two bus drivers and the owner of a small coach company in our church congregation.

The other aspect is that Peter (as it then was, now Gareth) in the ticket office had offered to refund fares if anyone decided to cancel their journeys. I am not sure if that is standard for company operated ticket offices but then ours is private and brilliant.

Jonathan

[phil-b259]

Thanks for the very informative responses about buses. I am aware of the difficulties of finding buses at short notice, though in the case I mentioned Arriva had had two hours to organise something, and it was the fact that we were being told confidently for two hours that a bus would be waiting for us that was annoying. In fact we have two bus drivers and the owner of a small coach company in our church congregation.

The other aspect is that Peter (as it then was, now Gareth) in the ticket office had offered to refund fares if anyone decided to cancel their journeys. I am not sure if that is standard for company operated ticket offices but then ours is private and brilliant.

Jonathan

 

From the National Rail Conditions of Carriage http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/46427.aspx

 

30. Your right to a refund if your train is disrupted and you choose not to travel

30.1 If the train you intended to use is cancelled, delayed, or your reservation will not be honoured, and you decide not to travel, you may return the unused Ticket to the original retailer or Train Company from whom it was purchased, where you will be given a full refund with no administration fee being charged. This Condition applies to all Tickets, including Tickets (such as advance Tickets) that are otherwise non-refundable, and also applies if you have begun your journey but are unable to complete it due to delay or cancellations and return to your point of origin.

30.2 When applying for a refund under this Condition you will need to state the date, time and station where you would otherwise have started your journey from.

30.3 Your refund application will be processed without undue delay and any refund due will be paid within 14 days of your claim being agreed by the Train Company. Our target is to process all claims within one month of receipt.

30.4 Where you have bought the Ticket from a Ticket office immediately before you intended to travel, you should be able to get this refund straight away by the same means with which you paid, from the Ticket office where you bought your Ticket.

 

[steven156]

Some interesting observations on replacement bus services, If I may add some; A couple of years ago my daughter was travelling from Tonbridge to Strood, and the last train was cancelled (due to Signaller shortage !) The Driver of the replacement bus did not have a clue where they were going, not being local (either to the area or indeed the UK). The passengers had to direct the driver. And on Sundays 5th and 12th of November the line between Cathcart and Neilston is closed for engineering work; The train takes 17 minutes for this journey, the replacement bus takes 47 ! (every station being on a different main road). Such a time differential also partly explains the difficulty of replacing trains with buses, particularly for an unplanned incident.

A couple of years ago on the Neilston line when I was a Ticket Examiner they had a block on for Engineering works that had trains run from Neilston to Glasgow via Newton- a long way for a short cut but it kept trains running.  Was a nightmare to diagram drivers for as essentially it had to be only Motherwell Drivers as they signed the West Coast Mainline between Glasgow Central and Newton and both the entire Cathcart Circle and Branches as part of their more extensive route knowledge.  A select few more senior Glasgow Central drivers used to sign the WCML to Newton for empty coach moves, but its not a route taught to new Shields or Glasgow Central Drivers as the empty coach moves now run to Motherwell for stabling overnight.  

The better compromise is for Neilston to have an extra shuttle bus to Barrhead and the customers for Glasgow are not having to go on a mystery tour to get to Patterton, Whitecraigs, Williamwood, Muirend and Cathcart as generally most Neilston customers are going to Glasgow anyway.