Garage conversion advice sought

[Metr0Land]

My conversion here:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/104686-mantles-wood/

 

BTW when talking to the Local Authority I called it converting the garage into a hobby room.  No probs at all with them.

 

 

Edit:  #1 is the main conversion, #25 is an update following a full winter.

Edited October 30, 2017 by Metr0Land

[Richard_A]

Out of interest, why the need for air gap in between the insulation and plasterboard?

 

I've not come across this, as I've always had to seal the insulation either with foil tape, or overboard with foil/insulation backed boards.

 

 

After reading Peter's post I ought to clarify mine. (late night posting)

 

A single skin (brick) wall doesn't need polythene on the inside as a DPC, any stud wall would need a breathable membrane though such as Tyvek. Working from outside in it would be

 

Brick, air gap, Tyvek, Board (Sterling) stud work filled with insulation, Vapour barrier, battens for air gap, plasterboard.

 

I have a pool room which is built in this way and apart from extra insulation over the stud work there is no issue with condensation.

[chris p bacon]

Out of interest, why the need for air gap in between the insulation and plasterboard?

 

I've not come across this, as I've always had to seal the insulation either with foil tape, or overboard with foil/insulation backed boards.

 

 

 

Partly to avoid condensation but also still air is the best insulator of all.

[Richard_A]

Ahh,

 

I've being looking at these multi foil insulation systems for my loft, and they say to use a batten between the foil and plasterboard for the same reason!

 

I assume you use an insulated board for cold bridging, or with you using a vapour barrier, can you do away with them?

 

When insulating a timber frame house, I had to use mineral wool,vapour barrier, then plaster board straight on top, the architect didn't specify a gap, hence my question.

 

 

Partly to avoid condensation but also still air is the best insulator of all.

[chris p bacon]

Ahh,

 

I've being looking at these multi foil insulation systems for my loft, and they say to use a batten between the foil and plasterboard for the same reason!

 

I assume you use an insulated board for cold bridging, or with you using a vapour barrier, can you do away with them?

 

When insulating a timber frame house, I had to use mineral wool,vapour barrier, then plaster board straight on top, the architect didn't specify a gap, hence my question.

 

 

 

The vapour barrier is performing the same task.

[Richard_A]

Thank you,

 

There seems to be so many variations on insulating, it can become a bit confusing.

[Giz Puk]

just came upon this thread and I'm sure that this subject will have been covered by an article in one of the magazines. unfortunately the only one I can think of is the garage case study in the 'design manual' from another rival magazine beginning with 'H' which was sold through that high street newsagents a couple of years ago.

Although not going into too much detail, the photos and accompanying text does show what can be achieved as well as covering one point that is usually forgotten.... good thermal insulation for the floor.

Apologies if I repeat items already covered and although I would not try to teach anyone to suck eggs, the best advice I can recommend is to seek the advice of professionals whether it be building, insulation or electrickery, but only using people recommended to you by word of mouth and by people who have had the work done themselves.

How many times do we hear ' I know a mate who..........'.

What sounds cheapest doesn't always work out that way and the best way is to do it once and do it right.

See also the thread on security (as highlighted by Black Rat and others), especially concerning doors and windows prior to ordering replacements as this too could save you a lot of money in the long run.

 

Yours Aye,

Giz

[chris p bacon]

 I'm sure that this subject will have been covered by an article in one of the magazines.  beginning with 'H' 

 

Hello ?

 

[LBRJ]

There must be some of the invisible ink they talk about used in here!!

 

I think there was some good advice in this thread

and i do have mates who are plumbers, electricians plasterers, builders etc Specially when I pay them!!

[Giz Puk]

Good morning LBRJ,

first of all apologies if my previous comment came across rather negative but whilst i must admit that on the whole many tradesmen as you rightly say are genuine, unfortunately as in my case, i was hoodwinked by a Del Boy Trotter type character.

My extension roof was built by a registered roofer, recommended by a local firm. Unfortunately when the roof began to leak, we found that he had taken the money and ceased trading shortly after. To cut a long story short the roof pitch was incorrect and with driving rain from the South west it gets under the tiles and through the ceiling........... all trains currently cancelled due to water on the line.

Despite numerous attempts to correct, we are now looking at a complete rebuild of roof as a worse case scenario hence why i suggested using recommendations from members and associates to ensure things go well. in this case the wish to get it completed and on time for minimal cost clouded my judgement.

If your mates are anything like mine they might happily help out at minimal cost providing you supply the beer and barbie(burgers not the doll)to make it a social event rather than just a job.

As an added bonus they can help later on with the functional testing of the layout (again more beer and pizzas .

Wishing you luck with the conversion and look forward to seeing the results when finished.

Yours Aye,

Giz

[chris p bacon]

. in this case the wish to get it completed and on time for minimal cost clouded my judgement.

 

Going slightly Off Topic.

 

Whilst it isn't true in all cases the bold part can cause you untold problems in any build where corners can be cut. I do think that with many things we have an unrealistic expectation of costs and how they can be reduced to near zero.

As an example I don't do many jobs for Joe public nowadays as I have enough to do with the new builds or conversions, but last week I was asked if I would help out a friend taking down a wall so he could get the dustiest/worst part down in one day. While there the homeowner asked if I was interested in quoting for some other work, I declined but they asked if I could give them a guide price so they could use it for comparison. After a bit of discussion it soon became clear that the amount they wanted to pay was less than the cost of materials required, this was explained to them but they were still of the opinion that they could get it for much less than I had suggested. I said 'good luck' and left it to them.

You can obviously get shafted the other way and pay way over the odds, around here that applies to driveways, tree trimming & upvc fascia etc.

[Giz Puk]

 

I couldn't agree with chris p bacon more.

Far too many of us think we can get things done cheaper without realising factors such as minimum working wage, the rising cost of materials and equipment required plus the fact that many of these professionals are expected to carry out the work in cold wet conditions.

I would always recommend using professionals, as a good one will advise you which bits you could do yourself to save labour costs. Don't forget though that these people need an income but have lives of their own too. When urgent problems arise however, they can often be counted on to turn up out of hours and a short notice.

The less work we are willing to pass their way.... the less of them will be available to take on our small jobs compared with the security offered by large scale projects.

Yours Aye,

Giz

[hayfield]

Good morning LBRJ,

first of all apologies if my previous comment came across rather negative but whilst i must admit that on the whole many tradesmen as you rightly say are genuine, unfortunately as in my case, i was hoodwinked by a Del Boy Trotter type character.

My extension roof was built by a registered roofer, recommended by a local firm. Unfortunately when the roof began to leak, we found that he had taken the money and ceased trading shortly after. To cut a long story short the roof pitch was incorrect and with driving rain from the South west it gets under the tiles and through the ceiling........... all trains currently cancelled due to water on the line.

Despite numerous attempts to correct, we are now looking at a complete rebuild of roof as a worse case scenario hence why i suggested using recommendations from members and associates to ensure things go well. in this case the wish to get it completed and on time for minimal cost clouded my judgement.

If your mates are anything like mine they might happily help out at minimal cost providing you supply the beer and barbie(burgers not the doll)to make it a social event rather than just a job.

As an added bonus they can help later on with the functional testing of the layout (again more beer and pizzas .

Wishing you luck with the conversion and look forward to seeing the results when finished.

Yours Aye,

Giz

 

Giz

 

May not be the roof pitch but the wrong tiles, our errant builder who quoted for smooth tiles then started to put cheaper ones on the  roof. And or they do not overlap sufficiently. Happily for us it got sorted out and the roof is dry

[hayfield]

Going slightly Off Topic.

 

Whilst it isn't true in all cases the bold part can cause you untold problems in any build where corners can be cut. I do think that with many things we have an unrealistic expectation of costs and how they can be reduced to near zero.

As an example I don't do many jobs for Joe public nowadays as I have enough to do with the new builds or conversions, but last week I was asked if I would help out a friend taking down a wall so he could get the dustiest/worst part down in one day. While there the homeowner asked if I was interested in quoting for some other work, I declined but they asked if I could give them a guide price so they could use it for comparison. After a bit of discussion it soon became clear that the amount they wanted to pay was less than the cost of materials required, this was explained to them but they were still of the opinion that they could get it for much less than I had suggested. I said 'good luck' and left it to them.

You can obviously get shafted the other way and pay way over the odds, around here that applies to driveways, tree trimming & upvc fascia etc.

 

 

I couldn't agree with chris p bacon more.

Far too many of us think we can get things done cheaper without realising factors such as minimum working wage, the rising cost of materials and equipment required plus the fact that many of these professionals are expected to carry out the work in cold wet conditions.

I would always recommend using professionals, as a good one will advise you which bits you could do yourself to save labour costs. Don't forget though that these people need an income but have lives of their own too. When urgent problems arise however, they can often be counted on to turn up out of hours and a short notice.

The less work we are willing to pass their way.... the less of them will be available to take on our small jobs compared with the security offered by large scale projects.

Yours Aye,

Giz

 

 

You are quite right about paying the correct money for the job, on the other hand if you can employ the tradesman directly this can be beneficial.  But that does not mean using the cheapest person as this can end up being the costliest route

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

 On a positive note, the upsides are considerable. A separate building, not used for any residential purpose or accessed directly from the house, is so much cleaner in significant respects for model railway operation. Don't put a carpet on the floor, curtains at the windows, and avoid wearing woollen or other 'shedding' fabrics in the hobby room: this results in much reduced fibre contamination. For those not fortunate enough to be equipped with a billiard ball finish a hair net might be an option? And none of those furry things permitted in the hobby room under any circumstances of course.

...Far too many of us think we can get things done cheaper without realising factors such as minimum working wage, the rising cost of materials and equipment required plus the fact that many of these professionals are expected to carry out the work in cold wet conditions...

And another significant 'something'. As a charity trustee over the last fifteen years, relating to the maintenance of buildings in our care: the ever increasing cost of the waste reclaim or disposal that is almost inevitable when significant repair, renovation or construction is required. This is a matter of social responsibility: your project should not end up generating a fly tipping incident.

[Old-sparky]

Depending upon where you live, 'bricking up' may cause controversy from an appearance point of view.

 

For mine, I left the garage door in place, with a false wall about 1200mm inside. This allows the door to open, and gives a storage area for things like stepladder, patio furniture in winter etc., and the door still matches my neighbour's. Access to the 'workshop' is through a new 'personnel' door that I had fitted at the back of the garage.

 

The garage is single skin and piers, over a plank and beam floor, under a pitched tiled roof. I had the walls lined with 75mm kingspan, and then 9mm ply, which I chose because it is easier to fix things to than is plasterboard. I can't recall what the ceiling is off-hand, but it has thick "rock wool" above it.

 

All work done by a reputable local "small builder", and as a non-habitable, easily reversible (take out the false wall) item, not of concern to either planning or BC.

 

It is very cosy in winter, on the strength of one oil-filled heater set at 1kW, 10 degrees (well above the potential dew-point temperature), which barely ever 'kicks-in' except when I turn it up to 15 degrees when I'm playing trains on cold winter evenings.

 

One thing to think seriously about is ventilation. Mine doesn't get warm, even in hot weather, it's a genuine man cave, but any enclosed space needs at least trickle ventilation, and it is worth thinking about "dead air" locations, like the back corners of cupboards, because even tiny amounts of moisture in the air can lead to mound growth in such places.

 

Hope that helps.

[Giz Puk]

Giz

 

May not be the roof pitch but the wrong tiles, our errant builder who quoted for smooth tiles then started to put cheaper ones on the  roof. And or they do not overlap sufficiently. Happily for us it got sorted out and the roof is dry

Many thanks for that hayfield,

in my case I believe that the pitch of the roof is too shallow, I estimate 11-13 degrees thus allowing rain to be driven under the tiles. So far we have tried sealant, larger lead flashing and numerous cheap solutions, but I think I am no resigned to waiting until it next leaks and try to trace it back.

Unfortunately the interior ceiling in the extension will need attention as the water has seeped between the plasterboard joints.

Luckily the lines underneath are protected by ice cream tubs when the weather looks dodgy and at least there has been no water damage to the layout.

Proof again that cutting corners for speed and cost is not always beneficial in the long run.

Were it not for living in the South West where the wind drives in from the Bristol channel, I think I might have got away with it.

Of note the new 'man cave' for the layouts will have a flat roof sealed properly with fibreglass. (my layouts are definitely more valuable than her extension but don't tell her I said that as she only knows what I told her they have cost me.

 

Top tip: consider how the weather will affect your building whether it be wind, rain, heat or cold from the outset as all can have detrimental effects on your layout and rolling stock.

Yours Aye,

Giz

[hayfield]

Giz

 

Our roof has a 12 degree pitch, we had a single story extension built 3 meters out and needed this shallow pitch to keep the top of the roof below the windows. The building inspector explained the importance of smooth tiles to stop such ingress when its blowing a gale and raining at the same time. Our roof faces south and the prevailing weather is from the south west. Good to know the building regs are there for a reason and work

 

As I said, wrong tiles and may be not overlapping each other enough. I could be wrong but I think a local builder said these tiles will work on shallower roofs than ours 

[chris p bacon]

 I believe that the pitch of the roof is too shallow, I estimate 11-13 degrees thus allowing rain to be driven under the tiles. 

 

 

The low pitch may not be a problem, tiles can go that low if the overlap (headlap) is increased between layers.

[big jim]

Interesting read so far, I’m at a point where I’m torn between ripping my garage down and replacing it with a summer house/log cabin type building or just replacing the roof on it and plasterboarding the inside, I don’t think there would be much difference in cost of the 2 jobs

 

When we moved in 10 years ago the garage had plastic and asbestos corrugated sheets on the roof that were rotten, the previous owner had simply put a gazebo INSIDE the garage and stored all of her stuff on pallets under that away from the rain (which then of course filled the garage floor) we however got it all down and replaced it with marine ply on steel cross members secured to the walls with corolux sheets nailed to it and it’s nice and dry but I have noticed some of the ply is now starting to rot under the corolux but nothing is dripping in through, as it was a temporary fix we never infilled the space between the roof and wall with bricks but I did put a plastic Facia all round to tidy the appearance from outside

 

I’m thinking of getting someone in to give me a quote to replace the roof with a proper tiled roof, low pitched or ‘leaning’ (can’t think of the word, pent maybe?) then getting someone in to insulate and plasterboard the inside

 

The building is approx 12ft wife by 25ft long and a single skinned construction in a good state of repair with double glazed side window, thankfully it was built the same time as the extension on the house so they took the wooden window from the kitchen and used it in the garage so when I had a new kitchen window fitted last year I moved the old double glazed one to the garage!

 

I think there is some sort of damp course membrane fitted and I had electricity reinstalled to it last year, Oddly The garage hasn’t been able to be used as a garage since the extension was built as you couldn’t get a car round the edge of the house into it so a few years back when we had the garden landscaped the guy removed the ramp up to it and replaced it with 2 steps that go up to the up and over door (4 panel upvc type on runners that curves as it raises) so if I go down the keep the garage option I would remove that and replace it with a upvc door and window or even French doors

 

Option 2 is pull it down and replace with a wooden cabin of a similar size pretty much using the existing garage base, my concern with that is on going maintainance with it being wooden

 

Ref planning permission for the ‘quick fix’ if I replace the existing ‘pent’ roof with a low pitched one do you think I would I need planning permission as it will be slightly taller than it is now?

 

Obviously if I’m going to change use to a layout room then i’ll Contact the planning department etc beforehand

[chris p bacon]

Ref planning permission for the ‘quick fix’ if I replace the existing ‘pent’ roof with a low pitched one do you think I would I need planning permission as it will be slightly taller than it is now

 

 

Only your local planning dept can answer that, a short email with a picture or a sketch with the basic dimensions should do.

 

One issue you haven't mentioned is where it is. If it is on the boundary (or within a metre) then you couldn't have a Timber building as you must have a metre between it and your fence/boundary (last time I checked it was a metre).

[big jim]

That meter rule knocks the wooden building idea on the head then!

[chris p bacon]

I'd write an email to building control and check, as I may be wrong. It's some time since I checked.

[5944]

https://www.planningportal.co.uk/info/200130/common_projects/43/outbuildings/2

 

If you want to put up small detached buildings such as a garden shed or summerhouse in your garden, building regulations will not normally apply if the floor area of the building is less than 15 square metres and contains NO sleeping accommodation.

 

If the floor area of the building is between 15 square metres and 30 square metres, you will not normally be required to apply for building regulations approval providing that the building contains NO sleeping accommodation and is either at least one metre from any boundary or it is constructed of substantially non-combustible materials.

[big jim]

One of the cabin companies offers flame retardant materials priced per wall but to be honest by the time that’s added the cabin has gone way out of my budget range!