Kings Cross York Road & Suburban Platforms

[APOLLO]

This photo shows the change in gradient well

 

 

Interesting videos

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcpb9oZ6f3g

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvadOyyRM3s

 

Brit15

[Joseph_Pestell]

These may help, Thanks Scotland.

 

http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=17&lat=51.5324&lon=-0.1257&layers=6&b=1

 

http://maps.nls.uk/view/103312997

 

http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=17&lat=51.5319&lon=-0.1250&layers=168&b=1

 

Brit15

Two of those maps show something that I had not realised before. It was not covered way/tunnel all the way from York Rd to Kings Cross (Met). There is a short cutting behind Bravington's.

[Nearholmer]

Apollo

 

First photo in 26 is fascinating.

 

If you strike a line from the foot-boards of the second coach, it runs out around the waist at the front of the first coach. So, a c3ft drop in a c60ft length, or 1:20.

 

I'm sure there's more too it than that, with perspective to factor-in, and the way that coaches transition over gradient changes, but whatever it is, it's impressively steep!

 

Kevin

Edited November 2, 2017 by Nearholmer

[Guest]

This photo shows the change in gradient well

 

 

 

It's such a good photo that it was the reason for starting the thread (Post #1, 1st link). I just didn't know who to attribute the picture to!

One thing's for sure, it's not a 1:200, the Class 31 is very much "nose down".

Edited November 2, 2017 by Pete 75C

[Dava]

York Rd and the KX Suburban widened lines platforms were amazingly atmospheric, especially in the dark. I remember being there in the last few weeks of loco hauled services to Moorgate in October 1976 as a yoof and boarding an inbound evening ECS compartment train hauled by a 31 to Moorgate from York Rd. The lights were off of course. The platform staff were a bit surprised when I dismounted at Moorgate, but I had a return ticket to Finsbury Park so nothing they could do.

 

Happy days, Deltics at the Cross etc.

 

Dava

[Clive Mortimore]

Clive - when a wagon was parked there for rubbish removal, do you know what it would have been in BR days? Open wagon/box van? I have the image of an open OBA or STV piled with black bin liners in my head, but alas quite often what's in my head bears no relation to reality!

Hi Pete,

 

Earlier types, a Medfit or a Grampus are the ones in the photos I have seen, in the days when you would have been asked "What is this word bin liner?". The rubbish was just piled in. The South Spur was taken out of use in the early 70s, well before the throat was changed and York Rd made redundant.

[Clive Mortimore]

It's such a good photo that it was the reason for starting the thread (Post #1, 1st link). I just didn't know who to attribute the picture to!

One thing's for sure, it's not a 1:200, the Class 31 is very much "nose down".

The summit of the rising gradient from Gas Works Tunnel and the falling gradient to the Met is where the first and second coach are coupled.

This HST demonstrates the gradient in/out of the tunnel, it doesn't show in many photos. Taken from above the York Rd to Met tunnel. 

 

A couple taken in the early 80s of the tunnel entrance, I cannot see any markings relating to the gradient changes. 

[chris p bacon]

The summit of the rising gradient from Gas Works Tunnel and the falling gradient to the Met is where the first and second coach are coupled.

This HST demonstrates the gradient in/out of the tunnel, it doesn't show in many photos. Taken from above the York Rd to Met tunnel. 

slope.jpg

 

 

Gas works does rise from KX as it heads North except for a short section when it has to dive under the Regents Canal Basin. I've got a sectional drawing somewhere that shows something like 4 bricks making up the basin bottom and tunnel top.

[roythebus]

Clive - when a wagon was parked there for rubbish removal, do you know what it would have been in BR days? Open wagon/box van? I have the image of an open OBA or STV piled with black bin liners in my head, but alas quite often what's in my head bears no relation to reality!

 

I don't recall that spur being there in the mid 1970s when I worked at KX. The tunnel was so bloody dark you'd never see a gradient board anyway.

 

The spur would have been used to keep a banker for the trip under the Met at Farringdon and onwards up Snow Hill. Some trains didn't need the banker for under the Met, but from what I gather most did for Snow Hill. there was a separate spur at Farringdon for a banker there.

[Mike Storey]

I was at KGX from 87 to 90 and the spur was long gone, the area having been levelled to allow construction of a two storey portable building for the carriage cleaners and M&EE staff. Station and train rubbish was placed in skips around the back of those. All that of course disappeared when Platform 0 was built.

 

The Kings Cross redevelopment was still in design stage when I was there, but several enabling works were in hand. This included diverting the Fleet sewer into part of the Hotel Curve, and using the York Road curve for NG HV cables and I think telecoms, from memory. It had long been locked off from our use (in Ops) but I was lucky enough to be shown down there after one planning meeting, but we could only go about 50 yards into it, due to works already taking place at the lower end. It was steep, very dark and very wet, and stank.

 

The maximum ruling gradient for the Snow Hill route overall was 1 in 40, so 1 in 46 for York Road seems completely feasible.

[Swindon 123]

A few of my photos showing how steep the short gradient out of Gasworks Tunnel was.

 

45103 [A681C-010(HR)] by Paul James, on Flickr

 

31247 [A880C-006] by Paul James, on Flickr

 

55004. [A181C-011] by Paul James, on Flickr

 

 

Paul J.

[Dava]

A satellite view from Google Earth on max magnification shows that the cutting or open section for the York Rd curve between Caledonia St, York Rd and Pentonville Rd is still there

 

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Kings+Cross,+London/@51.53126,-0.1220887,52m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x48761b10c73c4dcd:0x616f11fed05d6bb9!8m2!3d51.5333335!4d-0.1322312

 

Dava

[APOLLO]

This photo shows the Gas Works tunnel "dip"

 

 

Brit15

[keefer]

As shown by the burst of exhaust from the Deltic to get the train out of the tunnel and into the platform.

There are some great pics, taken from the platform ends, that show the big dip of the tunnels - going down under the canal, then climbing back up towards Belle Isle

EDIT: Apollo just posted while I was writing mine!

Edited November 2, 2017 by keefer

[TrevorP1]

Probably a bit late on this but I believe the Hotel Curve up to platform 16 was in the order of 1 in 40, so it seems reasonable that that York Road would be similar. 

[Dava]

The Hotel Curve was a brute with loaded trains climbing through the curved tunnel, at least 1 in 40, 'Steam Railway' says 1 in 37. Baby Deltics were banned after trials, causing minor vibration damage in the KX Hotel!

 

Some evocative photos from the final days and later here: http://picssr.com/tags/hotelcurve/interesting

 

Dava

Edited November 4, 2017 by Dava

[roythebus]

There was an open section behind the former model shop in York Way.

 

The climb on hotel Curve was quite steep and as others have said a bit of a to get a loaded train going from there, especially in the wet. But, the 31s were quite up to the job.

 

Reading about the dip under the canal, I've just read the book on WW2 damage to London's railways (Capital Transport), and there was a runaway accident toward the end of the war. An A4 left KX with a very heavy train, over 550 tons one evening and unknown to the loco crew actually slid back into the station with a couple of coaches side-swiping an adjacent train. most of the station was closed for 5 days while they sorted out the ensuing mess.

[Clive Mortimore]

There was an open section behind the former model shop in York Way.

 

The climb on hotel Curve was quite steep and as others have said a bit of a ###### to get a loaded train going from there, especially in the wet. But, the 31s were quite up to the job.

 

Reading about the dip under the canal, I've just read the book on WW2 damage to London's railways (Capital Transport), and there was a runaway accident toward the end of the war. An A4 left KX with a very heavy train, over 550 tons one evening and unknown to the loco crew actually slid back into the station with a couple of coaches side-swiping an adjacent train. most of the station was closed for 5 days while they sorted out the ensuing mess.

It took down the signal gantry that went across the front of the main station, that is why there was a hotch potch of signal post before the changes in 1977.

[Swindon 123]

During my time working out of Kings Cross (1979-84), I only remember the station being completely closed once, and that was by floodwater in the bottom of Gasworks Tunnel. I was sat out at Hornsey carriage sidings waiting to work into KX with ECS for one of the evening Peterborough services. Just before leaving for "The Cross" there was a tremendous cloudburst, that just about blotted everything out. Trains running past on adjacent lines looked like a tube of water on the move. We got to the end of the UP Goods, just about opposite where FP depot used to be and waited for our slot into KX. And waited, and waited. After a while, realising we had seen nothing coming out of, or going into KX whilst waiting at the signal, got in touch with the power box to be told that Gasworks Tunnel was flooded to a depth of 6ft and our train was being diverted into KX Goods yard, where it was to be stabled until they figured out what to do, or the floodwater receded, whichever came first. As it was the last trip of the day, I don't know how it all ended, except that it was there was widespread flooding on the underground and the roads, and getting home took some time.

 

Paul J.

[roythebus]

During my time working out of Kings Cross (1979-84), I only remember the station being completely closed once, and that was by floodwater in the bottom of Gasworks Tunnel. I was sat out at Hornsey carriage sidings waiting to work into KX with ECS for one of the evening Peterborough services. Just before leaving for "The Cross" there was a tremendous cloudburst, that just about blotted everything out. Trains running past on adjacent lines looked like a tube of water on the move. We got to the end of the UP Goods, just about opposite where FP depot used to be and waited for our slot into KX. And waited, and waited. After a while, realising we had seen nothing coming out of, or going into KX whilst waiting at the signal, got in touch with the power box to be told that Gasworks Tunnel was flooded to a depth of 6ft and our train was being diverted into KX Goods yard, where it was to be stabled until they figured out what to do, or the floodwater receded, whichever came first. As it was the last trip of the day, I don't know how it all ended, except that it was there was widespread flooding on the underground and the roads, and getting home took some time.

 

Paul J.

 

I suspect that was about 1981/2. I was a driver at Waterloo by then; Richmond platform was flooded to the top of the platforms stranding a 508 which ran into it; Feltham box hit by lightning, Twickenham box also; Guiildford flooded, just a bit of chaos here and there.

[APOLLO]

Lots of Kings Cross (& general LNER) info on this superb site.

 

https://www.lner.info/forums/index.php

 

This is an example, lots more if you search.

 

https://www.lner.info/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=12434..

 

This is an interesting site also for the Kings Cross fan

 

http://www.martinunderwood.f9.co.uk/Ladykillers/

 

And you can watch the film here.

 

https://ffilms.org/the-ladykillers-1955/

 

Brit15

Edited November 3, 2017 by APOLLO

[08221]

There are some great photos of the Cross in the latest edition of Steam Railway, including the hotel curve platform.

[TrevorP1]

There's no doubt that York Road would make an interesting project, especially if the up main is included. The scenic breaks are obvious and a little ingenuity ought find a way of dealing with main line trains running under the overall roof. My own project for the loco yard opposite is on hold due to an imminent house move.

 

But... My new railway room will be much bigger and dedicated for modelling. I keep thinking "can I find a way of doing both sides of the station throat?" Then the sensible head kicks in and tells me I've got too much planned already!

[D854_Tiger]

One question, was the junction from the widened lines to the Hotel Curve a flat junction or a flying one.

 

I've studied as many maps as I could find (or purchase) and I'm still none the wiser.

 

Though my gut instinct tells me it's a flat junction it's just that I can't find any pictures to confirm this.

 

Also, was it the case that GN services heading towards Moorgate didn't serve Kings Cross LT (or suburban as it was called) but did so in the opposite direction before negotiating the Hotel Curve to arrive in the main line station.

 

It must have confused the hell out of the uninitiated and it certainly confused me.

[roythebus]

One question, was the junction from the widened lines to the Hotel Curve a flat junction or a flying one.

 

I've studied as many maps as I could find (or purchase) and I'm still none the wiser.

 

Though my gut instinct tells me it's a flat junction it's just that I can't find any pictures to confirm this.

 

Also, was it the case that GN services heading towards Moorgate didn't serve Kings Cross LT (or suburban as it was called) but did so in the opposite direction before negotiating the Hotel Curve to arrive in the main line station.

 

It must have confused the hell out of the uninitiated and it certainly confused me.

 

It was a flat junction. The only time I stopped with a train on the up at KX Met station was one afternoon with empty stock we forgot to check the trip cock at York Way. The LT signalman stopped us to tell us. He had a D.I. (divisional inspector) in the 'box with him.He knew me from my days as a guard at Rickmansworth a few years previous! 

 

Presumably the morning trains didn't stop there as it was only round the corner from York Way. It made sense to stop in the down direction as there could often be a conflicting move from a Midland train coming the other way.