Class 230 into revenue service

[D854_Tiger]

There is a procedure for doing 800's in the wild - big catch pans were required plus spill kits put out ready.

 

Is that for when they start their new through London - Looe service.

['CHARD]

Although some freight operators do it (I'll mention no names or two locations where I know it takes place) in many areas it is illegal to do so without the proper facilities to cater for any overflow or leakage of fuel plus the necessary arrangements to prevent contamination of the surrounding ground and seepage to water courses.  As far as tanks are concerned it is a simple matter to get hold of and position a double bunded fuel storage and delivery tank - you can buy them off the shelf.  The big problem, and the major cost, is the necessary works to prevent ground contamination and seepage from any spillage and if the relevant locally based authorities involved have had past concerns at a location you can bet they'll be quickly on the case if any new facility appears.

 

I suspect - in the exact context of the above -  that Mike may also be aware of the significant environmental issues at BY that presaged its abandonment as a fuelling location.

[Nearholmer]

Christopher125

 

No, I hadn't. Interesting.

 

Will have to do a bit more delving.

 

Thanks, Kevin

 

(Back to 'real' alias)

[black and decker boy]

Unless you are near a controlled watercourse then I’m not sure there are too many regs to stop you.

 

I work in construction. We pitch up with fuel bowsers, road tankers etc and fuel out in the open day in day out with no need to get permission from the EA so long as you are not near a watercourse or in a flood plain.

 

At many of the private sidings, I guess any industrial locos will be fuelled and serviced under similar conditions so adding a FOC Loco is no great change and may well fall under permitted development even if they put a concrete slab down

[The Stationmaster]

I suspect - in the exact context of the above -  that Mike may also be aware of the significant environmental issues at BY that presaged its abandonment as a fuelling location.

 

And we went through a rather testing time at Westbury back in the 1970s where lack of a proper fuelling apron and interceptor landed the railway in considerable trouble.

[jjb1970]

My experience is power plants where we used diesel oil as a black out fuel in case there was a gas interruption or as a start up fuel for solid fuel plants (in some cases, also if there was a gas interruption) and for black out/black start diesel generators. Even though fuel oil was rarely offloaded to our tanks the fuelling area was special concrete to prevent seepage and subtly bunded. We used the same technique as many fuel stations in that there was a discrete, barely noticeable slope and drains to a containment system. The actual tanks were fully bunded to contain 110% of tank contents, this was the same for a 10,000T tank farm or for a 50,000Lt. tank for the black start diesel generators. Where we used fuel bowsers to fuel local emergency engines distributed around the plants they had portable spill trays, lockable valves, securing clamps to prevent couplings being accidentally split and the local filling points were fully bunded. And plenty of spill response materials, spill containment kits, spill response plans, regular drills etc. The key documents were the risk assessments and response plans. There were also a lot of fire detection and suppression systems for the fire safety aspects.

[jjb1970]

easier said than done. If you're lucky there's a float gauge that might display correctly on the outside, if not just a sight gauge that's usually stained or filthy. In cab fuel levels are a very new thing...

 

...I've had someone in control insist I can just check on the dash board more than once.

 

 

Given the disruption and costs associated with running out of fuel it is surprising that fuel tank level measurements are so basic, tank level measurement is neither difficult nor expensive in terms of industrial measurement. That said, a dip stick or a float gauge are both effective and reliable.

[Mike Storey]

Unless you are near a controlled watercourse then I’m not sure there are too many regs to stop you.

 

I work in construction. We pitch up with fuel bowsers, road tankers etc and fuel out in the open day in day out with no need to get permission from the EA so long as you are not near a watercourse or in a flood plain.

 

At many of the private sidings, I guess any industrial locos will be fuelled and serviced under similar conditions so adding a FOC Loco is no great change and may well fall under permitted development even if they put a concrete slab down

 

I am some years out of date, I admit, but around ten years ago, as soon as you spilled diesel onto unprotected ground (and a building site would be just that) the ground was classed as contaminated and you could not build upon or near it without removing the contamination. The concerns over run-off into water courses is an EA matter, you are correct. Contaminated land was (then) a Local Authority matter which could be referred to the EA as required.  It was one of our major construction constraints for the London Olympics sites. Plant refuelling had to take place only in designated areas, duly physically protected and with spillage procedures in place.

[Davexoc]

Petrol stations are a defined place though, and they can take whatever measures are considered necessary to deal with spills; you know where they'll be. Any spills will also be relatively small, unless it's the delivery tanker.

Filling a loco from a tanker wherever it's parked means that any spills will be in an uncontrolled area, so no infrastructure mitigations will be available.

I'm guessing that petrol stations will have an intercepter built into the surface drains, same at a depot, inspection pits and drains would allow water to drain while oils are collected. What capacity they have should be based on the worst case scenario, ie. biggest spill possible. At Old Oak once a freshly serviced 50 ran onto the turntable and flipped something underneath, puncturing the fuel tank and dumping over 1000 gallons of diesel down the drains.

 

In theory if both loco and hose have self sealing fittings, the only danger of spillage is the hose bursting, so should be ok anywhere. But a risk assessment would need to account for the worst outcome...

 

Dave

[stewartingram]

Does the filling of a diesel loco tank involve a "squirty" hose like a petrol station, or is it a bayonet/screw connection on the hose? I'm used to the latter as I run on lpg, and the pump shuts down when the tank is full. However with the normal petrol/diesel type, you hold the trigger - unless a latch is fitted, in which case it could overfill?

 

Stewart

Edited November 12, 2017 by stewartingram

[jjb1970]

I've never looked at the fittings so it'd be interesting to know what is used. I'd be amazed if they weren't required to use a mechanical connection, such as a screw connector, avery-hardoll or camlok (with securing pins to hold the "lock" secure when in use). The benefit of an avery-hardoll type fitting is they're a dry break type so if for any reason they do part then they self seal. They're also a quick fit/release bayonet design. They're not the cheapest though. Something to keep in mind is that these sort of mechanical couplings are liquid and gas tight so tanks need either a vent arrangement or a return line to prevent air lock, meaning overfill protection is important.

Edited November 12, 2017 by jjb1970

[jjb1970]

In cold climates, liquid seals on tank vents freezing can be a huge problem, it is a bit embarrassing if you over pressurise a big tank and end up with something that looks like a half inflated balloon or which has ruptured as a result.

[BrushVeteran]

Does the filling of a diesel loco tank involve a "squirty" hose like a petrol station, or is it a bayonet/screw connection on the hose? I'm used to the latter as I run on lpg, and the pump shtst down when the tank is full. However with the normal petrol/diesel type, you hold the trigger - unless a latch is fitted, in which case it could overfill?

 

Stewart

Having watched a pair of 37's being refuelled at Crewe a few years ago, where the fueller walked off, I recon I watched a good 100 or so gallons p**s out all over the tracks before I managed to shout at someone to bring it to their attention. In the end the operative just casually walked towards the dispensing pump and stopped the flow.

 

If you spill fuel on a garage forecourt these days you are supposed to report it immediately otherwise they can charge you for the eventual clean up.

[Christopher125]

Interesting presentation by Vivarail's Adrian Shooter to the LT Museum friends, from 27 minutes in:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7k8W7QWRWMk

[david.hill64]

Excellent presentation by Adrian Shooter.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Excellent presentation by Adrian Shooter.

He was always a good presenter - even way back in his days as an Area Manager at Bedford.

[Nearholmer]

He presented me with my 'completion of training' certificate when we were both at BR(S) ...... he'd only completed his own training a few years before, and must have been one of the quickest ever to attain 'presenting rank' ..... he sort of looked too young to be handing out certificates!

[luckymucklebackit]

In Scotland and want a free ride on one of these units - Bo'ness is the place to be!!

 

https://twitter.com/Vivarail/status/1047430236848250882?s=09

 

Jim

[Oldddudders]

He was always a good presenter - even way back in his days as an Area Manager at Bedford.

He made an unusual career choice, leaving the engineering function for general management, and became more visible within the industry as a result. This led to bigger and better roles and finally the Chiltern opportunity. For an engineer like him, “sticking with the wheels” would have ensured continued career progression, but he saw more interesting fare outside that discipline.

[Alex TM]

In Scotland and want a free ride on one of these units - Bo'ness is the place to be!!

 

https://twitter.com/Vivarail/status/1047430236848250882?s=09

 

Jim

Hi everyone,

 

At Bo'ness today, and staff were telling me that the unit leaves on Monday.  That means that you only have tomorrow to see it there.

 

Here's a link to a Youtube clip of it arriving on the 3rd:

 

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

[Andrew Young]

Will be interesting to see when/if the 230s enter revenue service. There was an ASLEF circular that came out a few weeks back, apparently Vivarail have completely ignored all the issues that had been raised and carried on regardless. As it currently stands, ASLEF refuses to allow any of its members to operate them.

 

Personally, the best place for redundant old Underground stock is being recycled into tin cans, not being re-engineered and passed off as Trains for the future!

 

Andrew

[Nearholmer]

Why do you say that?

[Bomag]

As it currently stands, ASLEF refuses to allow any of its members to operate them.

 

Andrew

 

Really? They have had ballots already? Or is it they recommend members not to drive them.

[jim.snowdon]

There was an ASLEF circular that came out a few weeks back, apparently Vivarail have completely ignored all the issues that had been raised and carried on regardless. As it currently stands, ASLEF refuses to allow any of its members to operate them.

 

Andrew

On what basis?

 

Jim

[black and decker boy]

Well somebody is driving the first WMT / LNW unit, 003, at Bletchley as it’s been out on night time testing recently.

 

Whilst more new stock would be preferable, if government won’t sanction it then at least these will be newer and better than Pacers and help fill gaps in fleets. The battery prototype is great innovation and would improve several short branch lines currently in pacer / 153 duties.

 

They’re not much different to the class 769 flex programme