Would a short parcels train need a guards van

[Dunsignalling]

Would the LMS BG have still been in use in 64 Steven ? and in what colour scheme ? as the layout is set within the old LMS area the BG is a strong possiblity teamed with the GUV and a Southern BY as suggested by dunsignalling . I am not trying to achieve full prototypicality  but rather something that to the knowledgable looks about right .

One in maroon or plain crimson should be just fine for 1964 but AFAIK crimson and cream was applied to relatively few of them.

 

The LMS 50' BGs survived well past the end of steam, certainly into the early-mid 1980s, by which time, it seems to have become a common practice to remove the gangways.

 

In the late fifties and early sixties, a good many seem to have migrated to the Southern Region (as did rather fewer of the 6-wheelers). Both were frequently to be seen on West of England milk trains. I presume they had become surplus to requirements on the LMR as that region received large numbers of the 57' BR Mk.1 equivalent. 

 

John

[AncientMariner]

Maroon it shall be then FC  , this brings up a further question though in that with my layout 98% finished is there an easy way ie Rattle Can to change the paint scheme to Maroon or is an airbrush the only option ? I don't have an airbrush and would rather avoid the expense of purchasing one just to paint one or possibly 2 wagons .

 

If you want to use a rattle can, then I believe that Ford Burgundy Red from Halfords is a reasonably close match to BR maroon.

 

Acknowledging that Tony Wright brought attention to this a while back.

 

John 

Edited November 5, 2017 by AncientMariner

[PatB]

 

In the late fifties and early sixties, a good many seem to have migrated to the Southern Region (as did rather fewer of the 6-wheelers). Both were frequently to be seen on West of England milk trains. I presume they had become surplus to requirements on the LMR as that region received large numbers of the 57' BR Mk.1 equivalent. 

 

John

 

Or maybe the Southern just appropriated them as recompense for all those CCTs that went a-wandering .

[kevinlms]

Would any of them have survived in their LMS livery  FC ? or would BR have repainted them prior to 64 ? and if so in would they be Grey or Bauxite ?.

Grey or bauxite. That was the LMS colour scheme for GOODS Brakes. BR used the colour scheme to designate unfitted & fitted wagons respectively. However the LMS had grey for all wagons prior to 1934, then new stock & repaints were bauxite.

[pctrainman]

I would like to thank all who have contributed to this thread as your input has been both extremely helpful and an education as well , I can now move on to acquiring a couple of wagons to go with the GUV and know that what I select will not raise any brows .I have attached a couple of pics so you can see what it was the first raised my interest in creating this particular train .

[Michael Edge]

The first one has a BY, you can see the periscopes on the roof, the second one has a BG.

[Dunsignalling]

The first one has a BY, you can see the periscopes on the roof, the second one has a BG.

The guard leaning out of his compartment in the BY is a bit of a giveaway, too.

 

John

[Fat Controller]

The first one has a BY, you can see the periscopes on the roof, the second one has a BG.

The second one epitomises the parcels train for me; WR loco, LNER van,BG (either ex-LMS or ex-GWR) and ex-SR van. Well into the 1970s, there were a large variety of different types, from the prosaic SR vans via the relatively obscure (the GWR-designed Monster, 6 built under BR) to the solitary ex-Night Ferry BY.

Is the photo taken on the 'Levels' near Bishton Flyover, by the way?

[The Stationmaster]

The second one epitomises the parcels train for me; WR loco, LNER van,BG (either ex-LMS or ex-GWR) and ex-SR van. Well into the 1970s, there were a large variety of different types, from the prosaic SR vans via the relatively obscure (the GWR-designed Monster, 6 built under BR) to the solitary ex-Night Ferry BY.

Is the photo taken on the 'Levels' near Bishton Flyover, by the way?

 

The Western photo is Kennington Jcn, south of Hinksey, the junction for the Thame branch.

[The Stationmaster]

Before the mid 1960s ALL trains, be they passenger, goods, empty coaching stock, parcels, etc HAD to have a guards van of some description within the train however Long or short it was.

 

The initial change was limited to diesel / electric hauled fully fitted freights and allowed the guard to travel in the rear facing cab of the loco - at no stage were guards permitted to share cabs with drivers which means all steam hauled fiitted freights still needed brake vans. Parcels and ECS trains would still be expected to contain guards accomadation rather than have the guard travel in the loco.

 

Over subsequent years further changes saw the need for a guard to be present on certain types of train was removed.

 

But to summersise, if you are model in a steam hauled parcels train it MUST contain guards accommodation.

 

The requirement to have a brakevan on fully fitted freight trains and parcels etc trains was discontinued from 5 May 1969.

 

So - as you say - a steam era parcels etc train had to include a brakevan.

[w124bob]

Of course you could always got for something like this! Presumably a portion was picked up en route or a portion is to be dropped off?E5010 at Denton by Peter, on Flickr

As mentioned in the "traditional parcels train" thread a guards van as seen above could be there to provide the guard with heat from the stove, as not all vehicles may be fitted with any through steam pipes or in this instance a loco with no boiler in winter.

Edited November 6, 2017 by w124bob

[kevinlms]

I would like to thank all who have contributed to this thread as your input has been both extremely helpful and an education as well , I can now move on to acquiring a couple of wagons to go with the GUV and know that what I select will not raise any brows .I have attached a couple of pics so you can see what it was the first raised my interest in creating this particular train .

Strictly speaking, they aren't wagons (although some might look like it), but they are Non Passenger Carrying Coaching Stock (NPCCS). The main difference is that they were approved to run in most passenger trains, whereas wagons were not.

 

Edited to include the missing word!

Edited November 7, 2017 by kevinlms

[Mike Storey]

Strictly speaking, they aren't wagons (although some might look like it), but they are Non Passenger Coaching Stock (NPCS). The main difference is that they were approved to run in most passenger trains, whereas wagons were not.

 

Strictly speaking (and especially for when searching on the web) you should use NPCCS (Non Passenger Carrying Coaching Stock).

[kevinlms]

Strictly speaking (and especially for when searching on the web) you should use NPCCS (Non Passenger Carrying Coaching Stock).

Quite correct, I'll edit my post later. I hate editing on a phone!

[Fat Controller]

As mentioned in the "traditional parcels train" thread a guards van as seen above could be there to provide the guard with heat from the stove, as not all vehicles may be fitted with any through steam pipes or in this instance a loco with no boiler in winter.

In this case, it would seem the Goods Brake Van is there for exactly that reason, as two of the SR Vans seem to be brakes (they appear to have periscopes), and there is also a BR Full Brake in the train.

[Karhedron]

If you want to use a rattle can, then I believe that Ford Burgundy Red from Halfords is a reasonably close match to BR maroon.

Ford Burgundy Red is what I use on my kit-built stock (an ex-GWR K40 BG in this case) and it certainly looks the part.

 

I find the Halfords spray cans give a much better finish and are less prone to clogging than the Railmatch cans.

 

[TheSignalEngineer]

A Stove R in maroon at Bristol c1969

 

https://flic.kr/p/ZG29rJ

 

You can forget the maroon ends, these only came in with spray painting of rolling stock in the mid-1960s.

Edited November 7, 2017 by TheSignalEngineer

[Caledonian]

I can remember seeing a photie of a parcels train simmering in the platform at Wakefield Kirkgate comprising a Fairbairn tank and a single BG

[Metr0Land]

Another consist you could replicate. A (presumably) overhauled van from Derby to elsewhere with just loco + parcels van + guards van (though the 1974 date makes it rather odd for a freshly painted maroon van)

 

https://flic.kr/p/9An4BX

Edited November 8, 2017 by Metr0Land

[dpgibbons]

The caption suggests that's not a parcels train but a renovated LMS van on its way to the short-lived preservation centre at Sewstern.

[Karhedron]

A couple of interesting possibilities here. A variety of Guard's accommodation but always present.

 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwrcov643.htm

 

http://www.steve-banks.org/prototype-and-traffic/167-parcels-traffic-in-br-days

[Jim]

Hi,

I was wondering about steam heat/eth supply through BR GUVs and the 4-wheel versions also the southern vans?

I just took it for granted they had through steam pipes or wired for electric train supply for the rest of the train if in formation with a passenger train.

 

Many thanks

Jim

[45125]

Hi,

I was wondering about steam heat/eth supply through BR GUVs and the 4-wheel versions also the southern vans?

I just took it for granted they had through steam pipes or wired for electric train supply for the rest of the train if in formation with a passenger train.

 

Many thanks

Jim

 

GUVs,CCTs and PMVs had through steam pipes. The GUVs had where electrically wired, some odd balls had electric heating and steam heat (mainly newspaper vans).

[Jim]

Cheers 45 125,

Jim

[Izzy]

What an interesting and informative thread. My first, and subsequent reaction to reading it has be - oh blow ( or words to that effect!) - along with the wish I had though about this when making/acquiring a few parcels vehicles for my very small layout. Adding a brake of some kind into my trains is going to be next to impossible. Heck.

 

Izzy