Peco Bullhead Points: in the flesh

[Pint of Adnams]

Is that the viaduct alongside Pinchin Street? I have always wondered where that lead to. Do you have anymore photos?!

Shamelessly taken from Chris Hawkins 'Great Eastern in Town & Country, Irwell Press 1990 chapter titled 'Mean Streets' - the original is out of copyright and the book is as ever a veritable mine of information. It's take west of Pinchin Street, close by Royal Mint Street and the underline bridge is for Mansel Street.

 

I never suggested that double slips are/were used in fast running lines, that's Larry's and Old Dudders's misinterpretations. Most modellers either go for a branch line terminus or country through station for reasons of size/space and certainly the double slip is a beneficial piece of point and crossing work, which is probably why Peco choose to manufacture them.

 

The typical entry to a GE goods yard would be by a facing or trailing point, depending on which side the goods area was situated, followed by a double slip. This was the first split into the subsequent fan of sidings and also gave all of those sidings access to a headshunt in the opposite direction.

 

As an aside, closer in to Fenchurch Street is, or was, a single slip with a third line crossing through it; see p36 upper photograph in the aforementioned book.

 

Finally, don't forget if we are using these products we are likely to modelling 1950s and earlier, so talk of 'today' is not relevant, save for preserved lines.

Edited November 18, 2017 by Pint of Adnams

[gr.king]

Regardless of what the prototypical usage of single and double slips may be, Peco are producing products for the model railway market and no doubt their historical sales figures for these slips will tell them which one is the most important as far as modellers are concerned.

That might end up being correct, although the very fact that we now have some ready made code 75 bullhead points does illustrate that Peco are no longer limited in their thinking to what is proven by past sales figures.

 

Why digress into an argument about which type of slip is most prototypically representative and most desirable in a topic that's supposed to be devoted to the actual product now to hand, in the flesh? Given the huge saving of time and effort that a basic offering of flexible right hand and left hand, fully chaired, bullhead points now offers, I consider it no hardship at all if I happen to need to build the specific kind of slip I might want for one particular location.

[PMP]

Misinterpretation in a Peco Bullhead pointwork thread? Surely not....

 

One of the effective ways to convey to Peco what the market want in the range is to 'speak' to them. At Warley next weekend there's a golden opportunity for that.

 

Edit: as far as the slip debate goes, fast main line issues may not be the biggest factor. Most layouts feature a station of some sort, and going back to sales, there's likely a correlation with other ranges sales and possibly scales O/N that gives Peco a guide to whichever type will sell more. I doubt we will see a change from the existing geometry, and may not see some of the shortest point included should the range expand, that's not guaranteed yet. But a way to influence that is speak to Peco, emails, letters, shows, and not least by buying both existing products, track, and point work.

Edited November 18, 2017 by PMP

[UMinion]

Not really. Manufacturers tend to be very busy and bombarded by 'ideas' at large shows. There's a huge likelyhood any message would be lost as soon as the next person talks to them. Plus (not saying peco would do this) it's very easy to fob someone off when they are really busy.

[PMP]

Not really. Manufacturers tend to be very busy and bombarded by 'ideas' at large shows. There's a huge likelyhood any message would be lost as soon as the next person talks to them. Plus (not saying peco would do this) it's very easy to fob someone off when they are really busy.

 

 

^^ Thanks for this mornings 'fact free' contribution.

 

edited to add quote ....

Edited November 18, 2017 by PMP

[Fat Controller]

Shamelessly taken from Chris Hawkins 'Great Eastern in Town & Country, Irwell Press 1990 chapter titled 'Mean Streets' - the original is out of copyright and the book is as ever a veritable mine of information. It's take west of Pinchin Street, close by Royal Mint Street and the underline bridge is for Mansel Street.

 

I never suggested that double slips are/were used in fast running lines, that's Larry's and Old Dudders's misinterpretations. Most modellers either go for a branch line terminus or country through station for reasons of size/space and certainly the double slip is a beneficial piece of point and crossing work, which is probably why Peco choose to manufacture them.

 

The typical entry to a GE goods yard would be by a facing or trailing point, depending on which side the goods area was situated, followed by a double slip. This was the first split into the subsequent fan of sidings and also gave all of those sidings access to a headshunt in the opposite direction.

 

As an aside, closer in to Fenchurch Street is, or was, a single slip with a third line crossing through it; see p36 upper photograph in the aforementioned book.

 

Finally, don't forget if we are using these products we are likely to modelling 1950s and earlier, so talk of 'today' is not relevant, save for preserved lines.

Not sure if this link will work or not:- http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/75589-1-dover-priory-kent/page-229&do=findComment&comment=2926699 David would be able to confirm the date, but I would say mid-1980s. The line shown is that from Dover Western Docks towards Ashford and Charing Cross. The points and crossings are all in bullhead, and remained so until the track was lifted in 1995. Note the double slip on the Up running line; the layout was very constrained.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Regardless of what the prototypical usage of single and double slips may be, Peco are producing products for the model railway market and no doubt their historical sales figures for these slips will tell them which one is the most important as far as modellers are concerned. 

 

That would be a false statistic because Peco have only been making single slips since comparatively recently.

[Joseph_Pestell]

As I understand it the Midland railway had a pathological fear of facing points more so than any other company. Having been doing some research this evening I think the single-slip access into a goods yard of a small station was very much a Midland and GWR practise. The only double slips I've found quickly this evening on the Midland on main running lines were two at Buxton which was a cramped terminus. 

 

My local GER station had a double slip in the goods yard but no facing points.

Chapel-en-le-Frith provides a rare example of a double-slip on a running line on the Midland (see layout thread on here).

 

But it was not particularly a railway company thing. The Board of Trade Inspectors discouraged facing points (but especially slips) on running roads where trains would be travelling at speed. The L&Y probably had the most but only because the topography meant that loops had to be fitted into restricted lengths between tunnels.

 

Even the LSW, which used them a lot in low-speed locations did not have them on running lines. The exception being Tavistock North where the goods yard had to have a facing slip as the main line started up an incline. Even so, the more conventional arrangement would be as at Maiden Newton, accessing the diverging line by setting back onto the Down Line first.

[UMinion]

 

^^ Thanks for this mornings 'fact free' contribution.

 

edited to add quote ....

It's based on years of experience of being the 'other side' of the barrier although in a different market. Try not to be so dismissive

[PMP]

It's based on years of experience of being the 'other side' of the barrier although in a different market. Try not to be so dismissive

 

 

Oh the irony!

You dismiss talking to Peco at Warley as any message will be lost, or they'll fob you off, and then compare your years of experience in a non related industry, with no relevance.

 

Perhaps you should actually go to Warley and see for yourself how professional Peco are at dealing with the wide range of customers and queries they deal with before dismissing their efforts.

Edited November 18, 2017 by PMP

[UMinion]

You are still being extremely dismissive PMP? I have been to Warley every year for years and have spoken to Peco on many occasions. I appreciate how swampled they can get at times and I also appreciate that they don't know me from Adam (as you clearly don't either).

 

What's your relevant experience that gives you such authority? The 'irony' of your own 'fact free' contributions hasn't been missed.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Both of you....please avoid getting yet another Peco/track thread blocked by Andy.

[Brian Kirby]

There appears to be a self-appointed amateur moderator, with an axe to grind amongst us, trying to score cheap points in a rather obnoxious manner. Here at the friendly Peco points discussion tea party, we are just exchanging views and opinions on what might be best for both us and Peco. Instead in this age of electronic communication, we are being advised to travel the length of the land, and tell the manufacturer face-to-face. To try and censure friendly chat and banter smacks of Stalinism, we'll be being told what to buy and build next. It's all getting a bit self-righteous, like those blogs I warned people about.

                                                                                    Cheers, Brian.

Edited November 18, 2017 by Brian Kirby

[coachmann]

Himmell..... Have members ever considered how much freedom they have conceded since the last war. These little spats liven things up. 

Edited November 18, 2017 by coachmann

[tomparryharry]

Given the warm response to the bullhead track thus far, it's fairly safe to say that Peco are likely to expand to the full 00 range. That said, it's also likely that some of the bullhead range will prove popular. Some less so.

 

Ian.

[Chamby]

Ref my post #334 about cutting the webs between sleepers to ease bending of the points:  I strongly recommend that you do NOT cut the web between sleepers with slide chairs.  These sleepers only have two webs and two rails fixed, to allow the blades to slide of course... cutting here will create a weaker spot than the other gaps with 4 webs and 4 chairs, so the bend develops a kink.  The cuts as shown in the pictures #334 work well to ease bending.  Cutting any further away from the frog is deffo a snip too far!      

[Godfrey Glyn]

I dropped into PECO yesterday and got the impression from some staff who happened to be in the shop that they were pleased with the response to their first set of points. I suspect that there will be much head scratching up in the management offices when deciding what to produce next. I am sure that all of us who have been impressed with these new points will have a view as to what we want to see next. We all have the ability to write to PECO and indeed let our normal retailer know our views, all model shops in the UK who sell PECO have a rep who calls regularly and will be an effective channel of communication of views back to the factory at Beer. When I picked up my first two at Alton Model Centre last week Paul had a good stock so if your local supplier has run out it might be worth giving him a ring.

 

all the best

Godfrey

[Free At Last]

I had a very quick response to a query from Peco using Facebook.

[Mallard60022]

I had a very quick response to a query from Peco using Facebook.

I had a personal reply from one of the Senior Staff following my email about the points. I have also had good comms with them in the past, but not at shows.

Phil

[Brian Kirby]

Moving on, a part of the Peco Streamline range that are often over-looked, are the catch/trap points. Always slow sellers, many people just didn't bother using them, or cobbled up their own from plain track. Strictly speaking, they are an important part of a pointwork complex, some companies fitted more than others, post-60s BR did away with many for a variety of reasons. In simple terms, catch and trap points are the same thing, they just work in opposite directions, plus there were/are other varieties.

     Correct me if i'm wrong, i've always regarded a "catch point" as one that faces backwards on inclines, normally sprung in the open position, "to catch" wagons that have broken away from the back of a moving unfitted goods train. On the other hand, to me a "trap" point faces against the direction of travel and is interlocked with other points, to deliberately de-rail ("trap") a train at slow speed, that has passed a signal at red. BR generally removed trailing catch points with the demise of unfitted freights in the 1980s, facing trap points have become rarer since the 60s with modern ladder crossings, however they would have helped to avoid some nasty collisions, BR preferring to rely on signal and automatic stopping with greater over-run length beyond a signal. The two terms, "catch" or "trap" are confusing, and basically interchangeable, maybe we need a new description?!

         So where do we place catch/trap points in the top ten priorities that we need in bullhead?     BK 

[frobisher]

So where do we place catch/trap points in the top ten priorities that we need in bullhead?     BK

I would say they're an easy win for Peco and have greater relevance to BH than to FB track as well so maybe an early expansion to the range?

[Scottest]

I had almost forgotten how to include jpgs to a forum contribution. It might be timely to promote the existence of a number of drawings for pre-grouping LSW S&C, published by the South Western Circle, and against which these new products from Mr Peco might be compared.

 

 

The Peco product would appear to be for the post-grouping REA standard, whereas the pre-grouping product had a number of small differences. However, for 4ft 1-1/2" gauge, Rule 1 still suits me.

 

[tomparryharry]

Trap, or catch points generally come in three varieties.

 

The first, or single blade trap is just that. It's the one that you will mostly find in a Peco catch point.  The second is sometimes called a 'half trap'. The full switch is included, but the track stops short of the crossing frog. Some catches have an elevated portion, to drop the wheel over the 4-foot, but protect the main running line from any further damage. The third is sometimes called a 'full trap'. To most intents & purposes it's a fully functioning point, complete with all locking, divergence & detection.  

 

There are variations to all three of these, dependant on local conditions, gradient, line speed protection, prior history. Sometimes, the inspecting officer from the Board of Trade will ask for differing additions to what you would normally see.  

 

A sprung catch point is normally see in a position going uphill, on a gradient. The idea is to protect anything breaking away, and running backwards, downhill. The main line from Bristol Temple Meads, up towards the junctions at Filton, had about 5 sets of sprung traps, all in about 3 miles of incline. The up relief line at Maesmawr (South Wales) was fully signalled to passenger standard, and as such, was fully protected. so, facing point locks, detection, signals, track circuits, etc. 

 

A diagram of your preferred layout location is always a really good place to start. Places like Waterloo, Clapham, & London Bridge are good to see, but not for the faint-hearted! Me? I'm off to study the track plan at Ashburton!

 

Ian.

[Melly]

You are still being extremely dismissive PMP? I have been to Warley every year for years and have spoken to Peco on many occasions. I appreciate how swampled they can get at times and I also appreciate that they don't know me from Adam (as you clearly don't either).

 

What's your relevant experience that gives you such authority? The 'irony' of your own 'fact free' contributions hasn't been missed.

 

I think if you had any idea of the strength and diversity of PMPs background . . . . .  Or been to shows with him displaying layouts and engaging with both punters and other traders / exhibitors . . . .  Or sitting in the pub / curry house / strip club​ with PMP and other well known individuals from the railway trade, you'd realise that he's not one of those 'forum self proclaimed armchair experts'.  He's passionate, knowledgeable and well connected within the hobby.  I've learnt loads due to his generosity of time, knowledge and friendship.

 

When it comes to discussing Warley and Traders and engaging with them I can tell you his "fact free opinion' is a dam sight more relevant than your

 

"experience of being the 'other side' of the barrier although in a different market"

 

 

BTW - well done Peco; you've taken a leap of faith and it's good . . . more please.

 

Regards

 

M

[davefrk]

All this talk of the new PECO points being quite flexible (within reason). Does this mean one can finally produce flowing trackwork like this. If it does then that is a huge step forward for RTL track.

 

C&L components on ply sleepers to EM gauge.

 

Will the PECO point stretch to 27ft left and 6ft right. 

Just for the info for everyone, too late for me.

 

Dave.