Peco Bullhead Points: in the flesh

[gr.king]

Thanks to all for the images, especial AJ's opening under-side views.

I've had a quick scan through the posts so far, and not spotted a reference to this, so I'll ask, as I've not yet had my hands/eyes on these points.

 

The otherwise separate wing-rail extensions and check rails appear, as in the Novemeber RM images, to have some sort of solder blob, weld, rivet or other "thing" on the underside, potentially locking them into the moulded bases. What exactly is it? How much trouble would it be for instance to release and pull out these particular pieces of nickel silver rail and replace with phosphor bronze, if the section matches, thus giving these non-running rails a duller looking top face?

[Harlequin]

Hi Folks,

 

What is the approximate radius of the 'large' turnout?

 

Just roughing out (rough? more like 40 grit) a new layout over here, and I'm looking over the Peco website, without too much success.

 

Many thanks,

 

Ian.

 

PS. Slightly off topic. Many years ago, I had a works T-shirt, labelled 'extra, extra medium'.

Woah! That's a controversial question!

 

Peco have stated for years that the large radius Streamline points are "60inch nominal radius" but they simply cannot be.

 

All their straight points have the restrictions that they must give 12degrees of turn and 2 inches of spacing if any two points are joined to form a crossover between parallel tracks.

 

According to those rules, if you apply some basic maths you can calculate that the maximum possible radius is 45.76in (i.e. a nominal 48inches) and that would make sense within their range:

Small points: 2ft radius (nominal)

Medium points: 3ft radius (nominal)

Large points: 4ft radius (nominal)

 

I think the quoted "60in nominal radius" is just a silly mistake that they have propagated throughout the years and are unwilling to change now.

Edited November 9, 2017 by Harlequin

[£1.38]

I'd agree with that. My rough calculation is an overall radius of around 48". It has to be a rough calculation, because it is not a smooth curve. The section through the frog is noticeably flatter than the rest.

[Mallard60022]

Thanks to all for the images, especial AJ's opening under-side views.I've had a quick scan through the posts so far, and not spotted a reference to this, so I'll ask, as I've not yet had my hands/eyes on these points.The otherwise separate wing-rail extensions and check rails appear, as in the Novemeber RM images, to have some sort of solder blob, weld, rivet or other "thing" on the underside, potentially locking them into the moulded bases. What exactly is it? How much trouble would it be for instance to release and pull out these particular pieces of nickel silver rail and replace with phosphor bronze, if the section matches, thus giving these non-running rails a duller looking top face?

I'll try to remember to have a look at that idea tomorrow when my CCE is visiting.

Phil

[rob D2]

I wonder how many of these will be used, in er, slightly unsuitable diesel applications ,

 

That's certainly the road I'm going down. I wouldn't take the mick for mainline but for branch and sidings I reckon I'll get away with it.

[Jeff Smith]

Thanks to all for the images, especial AJ's opening under-side views.I've had a quick scan through the posts so far, and not spotted a reference to this, so I'll ask, as I've not yet had my hands/eyes on these points.The otherwise separate wing-rail extensions and check rails appear, as in the Novemeber RM images, to have some sort of solder blob, weld, rivet or other "thing" on the underside, potentially locking them into the moulded bases. What exactly is it? How much trouble would it be for instance to release and pull out these particular pieces of nickel silver rail and replace with phosphor bronze, if the section matches, thus giving these non-running rails a duller looking top face?

How about just painting them....?

 

If the pads underneath are in fact metallic and attached to the check rails they could be connected to the adjacent stock rails for added electrical pick up from wheel backs.....the tops and inside faces could still be painted.

[newbryford]

I wonder how many of these will be used, in er, slightly unsuitable diesel applications ,

 

That's certainly the road I'm going down. I wouldn't take the mick for mainline but for branch and sidings I reckon I'll get away with it.

 

Nothing wrong in using them on modern image    layouts............................

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Nile]

Thanks to all for the images, especial AJ's opening under-side views.

I've had a quick scan through the posts so far, and not spotted a reference to this, so I'll ask, as I've not yet had my hands/eyes on these points.

 

The otherwise separate wing-rail extensions and check rails appear, as in the Novemeber RM images, to have some sort of solder blob, weld, rivet or other "thing" on the underside, potentially locking them into the moulded bases. What exactly is it? How much trouble would it be for instance to release and pull out these particular pieces of nickel silver rail and replace with phosphor bronze, if the section matches, thus giving these non-running rails a duller looking top face?

 

That intrigued me, so I had a look. They appeared to be small discs of nickel silver spot welded to the rails. I gave one a few pokes and eventually it fell off. The check rail could now be removed with ease.

The disc is about 10thou thick and 2mm in diameter. A little bit of superglue will do as a replacement.

[Harlequin]

If you're interested, I have created a PDF file containing the actual-size centre-line geometries of all Peco HO/OO Streamline turnouts and crossings with all their product codes here:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/126780-layout-design-in-illustration-software/?p=2874563

 

They have all been checked against Peco's downloadable templates and their intended use is for layout design in Illustration software.

Edited November 9, 2017 by Harlequin

[Chamby]

I'd agree with that. My rough calculation is an overall radius of around 48". It has to be a rough calculation, because it is not a smooth curve. The section through the frog is noticeably flatter than the rest.

The 48” tracksetta confirms that the radius is about that, but deviates from a snug fit around the frog.

 

Phil

 

[steve45]

I think the first run will be limited production.

If there is demand, then I am sure more will be made.

 I think the opposite, they have to recover the cost of the moulds, so I would think they would carry on production for a while

[gr.king]

How about just painting them....?

Repeated rail cleaning so easily takes the paint off the tops of the non-running rails, revealing an unrealistic very bright surface once again, and repeated re-painting doesn't appeal. At least with phos-bronze, even when cleaned, it is a different tone to the nickel silver running rail tops. Of course I'd paint the sides. I'm aware that other ideas can be employed, such as filing just a few thou off the tops of the non-running rails to try to spare them from the abrasive action of a rail cleaner, allowing a paint finish to survive. Replacement of the top of the rail with a strip of PCB is something else I've seen suggested, but a simple swap of a piece of pb rail for piece of ns rail seems an obvious thing to try, if possible.

[Jeff Smith]

Repeated rail cleaning so easily takes the paint off the tops of the non-running rails, revealing an unrealistic very bright surface once again, and repeated re-painting doesn't appeal. At least with phos-bronze, even when cleaned, it is a different tone to the nickel silver running rail tops. Of course I'd paint the sides. I'm aware that other ideas can be employed, such as filing just a few thou off the tops of the non-running rails to try to spare them from the abrasive action of a rail cleaner, allowing a paint finish to survive. Replacement of the top of the rail with a strip of PCB is something else I've seen suggested, but a simple swap of a piece of pb rail for piece of ns rail seems an obvious thing to try, if possible.

It's better not to use any abrasive type of cleaning of the rail tops. This leaves it with small grooves which then can retain insulating dirt and contamination. New rail has a nice shiny finish which can be maintained by cleaning with IPA or similar that doesn't attack whatever paint has been used. IPA does in fact attack Vallejo paints but not Testors Acryl or other acrylics I've used.

[LBRJ]

I am most impressed with what I see of the product in this thread ( the rather unneeded OT, Devon bashing now  thankfully ceased)

 

I was intending to go and source some as soon as, but sometime today, the freezer decided it had had enough - so  that acquisition will have  to happen when I have replaced my (now former) freezer with one that will actually work, hopefully sometime tomorrow ( thinks of the appalling Quick Quid advert here - Ill use my own money I think )

 

I hope that then I can have some easy sourced points, where a 10 foot wheelbase wagon will look correct in relation to the sleeper spacing

[Joseph_Pestell]

Hi Martin,

 

Blimey, I must admit to it not even approaching crystal clear on their website, but appears to be 1 524mm or 60".

 

Perhaps a quick email on info@peco.co is called for.

 

Bon courage,

 

Bill

1524mm is the "nominal radius". So far as any of us can make out, what Peco mean by that is that if you made a circle of track using 30 of these points, it would come out at 1524mm radius.

 

But the real curvature on these points is around 44".

[tomparryharry]

It's better not to use any abrasive type of cleaning of the rail tops. This leaves it with small grooves which then can retain insulating dirt and contamination. New rail has a nice shiny finish which can be maintained by cleaning with IPA or similar that doesn't attack whatever paint has been used. IPA does in fact attack Vallejo paints but not Testors Acryl or other acrylics I've used.

Just a slight rub over with newspaper is enough to do the job. It works for me, but some people say that newsprint isn't best either. I've tried IPA, and that's quite good. Depending on the grade of IPA will, however, melt plastic over a while, so  I'd suggest minimal dosage.

 

Ian.

 

Edited due to rubbish proof-reading on my part.

Edited November 10, 2017 by tomparryharry

[Bernard Lamb]

I am most impressed with what I see of the product in this thread ( the rather unneeded OT, Devon bashing now  thankfully ceased)

 

I was intending to go and source some as soon as, but sometime today, the freezer decided it had had enough - so  that acquisition will have  to happen when I have replaced my (now former) freezer with one that will actually work, hopefully sometime tomorrow ( thinks of the appalling Quick Quid advert here - Ill use my own money I think )

 

I hope that then I can have some easy sourced points, where a 10 foot wheelbase wagon will look correct in relation to the sleeper spacing

Agreed.

In my case it was the Henry that expired and has to be replaced. Not bad I suppose as it was about 17 years old. But it still means finding the cash.

Even better suited to a 20t or 21t hopper wagon. (But don't let us upset our friend who denies the existence of check rails covering 4 sleepers).

After several decades of using live frogs I am coming round to the idea of Unifrog as it comes. Even on DC it can eliminate/simplify wiring for a BLT or similar small layout.

Bernard

[Mallard60022]

Repeated rail cleaning so easily takes the paint off the tops of the non-running rails, revealing an unrealistic very bright surface once again, and repeated re-painting doesn't appeal. At least with phos-bronze, even when cleaned, it is a different tone to the nickel silver running rail tops. Of course I'd paint the sides. I'm aware that other ideas can be employed, such as filing just a few thou off the tops of the non-running rails to try to spare them from the abrasive action of a rail cleaner, allowing a paint finish to survive. Replacement of the top of the rail with a strip of PCB is something else I've seen suggested, but a simple swap of a piece of pb rail for piece of ns rail seems an obvious thing to try, if possible.

I used that when I built my (sshhhh E.M.) points for St George's Yard a few years back. Incidentally, that was a diesel shunting (long) plank but had bullhead rail throughout.

Phil

[tomparryharry]

Hi Folks, thanks for all of your responses about 'large point radius' and divergence.

 

Given that I haven't seen a new Peco bullhead point, can I ask a question or two?

 

Earlier posts on here mentioned the 'flexibility' on the new point. With that in mind, is it possible to actually increase the nominal radius? I'm looking at creating a larger radius, say, a true 6 foot, or 72" Geometry shouldn't matter here, as it's a single track location.

 

Views and ideas here are, as usual, positively received.

 

Many thanks,

 

Ian.

 

PS. After writing this, it looks as if I'm going to make it myself....

[coachmann]

Hi Folks, thanks for all of your responses about 'large point radius' and divergence.

 

Given that I haven't seen a new Peco bullhead point, can I ask a question or two?

 

Earlier posts on here mentioned the 'flexibility' on the new point. With that in mind, is it possible to actually increase the nominal radius? I'm looking at creating a larger radius, say, a true 6 foot, or 72" Geometry shouldn't matter here, as it's a single track location.

 

Views and ideas here are, as usual, positively received.

 

Many thanks,

 

Ian.

 

PS. After writing this, it looks as if I'm going to make it myself....

The bullhead point will flex either way to make a curved or a 'Y'.  I say flex because unless one cuts plastic webbing, the point will revert to it normal configuration. This was why I said it needed pinning down until glue sets, (assuming one glues their points down). I glue and ballast in one go.

[Merfyn Jones]

The bullhead point will flex either way to make a curved or a 'Y'.  I say flex because unless one cuts plastic webbing, the point will revert to it normal configuration. This was why I said it needed pinning down until glue sets, (assuming one glues their points down). I glue and ballast in one go.

 

I laid a trial one last night at Deganwy (a stone throw from Carrog) and found that a slight 'Y' was easily done as stands, kept to shape with drawing pins till the glue sets. However have not tried cutting the webs yet but the plastic seems more soft and flexible than the old Code 100, so should give lots of play. However be careful as they will be more fragile.

What I liked was the ability to remove the old Code 100 point, clear the old ballast and plonk the new point straight over the point motor pin, then it switched straight away without any adjustment or even going under the baseboard. Does exactly what I wanted of it.

 

 

ps.  That big crimson masterpiece is welcome to run on the Llandudno branch any time, looks superb.

Edited November 10, 2017 by Merfyn Jones

[coachmann]

Hi Merf,  It sounds just the job being able to lift one point and drop a bullhead onto the motor pin. 

[Mike Bellamy]

Peco have never made their own rail. It would simply not be economic. So far as industry is concerned, what we think of as rail is a type of wire which is indeed extruded to that shape.

 

 

 

I remember Paul Martin of EDM Models telling me a few years ago that he couldn't get Micro-Engineering On30 track from USA as they were waiting for a delivery of rail from Sheffield !!  Apparently there are hardly any manufacturers who are able to turn (draw?) wire into rail and this firm in Sheffield supply almost all track manufacturers.

 

.

[Merfyn Jones]

Hi Merf,  It sounds just the job being able to lift one point and drop a bullhead onto the motor pin. 

 

Just did the one to see how it went, need to buy the rest now . So easy.

[Mallard60022]

The bullhead point will flex either way to make a curved or a 'Y'.  I say flex because unless one cuts plastic webbing, the point will revert to it normal configuration. This was why I said it needed pinning down until glue sets, (assuming one glues their points down). I glue and ballast in one go.

Yup, today my PW Consultant fondled said point and it is a bendy one. It can as Coach says, flex both left and right and also into a neat Y. Very versatile indeed.

It is almost an exact fit on top of a C75 Streamilne Meadium Rad item. I stiil have not tested the trickery continuity on my DCC layout (in construction; sorry).

Only comment I would make is that it's timbers do look a bit 'chunky' next to C & L Bullhead (not seen the Peco Bullhead yet) and the PWC pointed out that the timbers spacing was a bit weird at the heel end I think it was.

Phil