Thoughts on Spring Drive/Clockwork

[PatB]

A thought occurs to my perpetually disordered mind, prompted by the apparent popularity of vintage and pseudo-vintage coarse scale 0 gauge.

 

I remember reading in Jack Ray's book chronicling the development of Crewchester that someone (John Van Riemsdijk I think) had investigated, in the 1950s or 60s, making an up to date clockwork mechanism as a replacement for the then ageing Bing/Basset-Lowke mechs that were the staple of the 0 gauge clockwork world. IIRC it was found that the economics would have been impossible at the time.

 

Back then, of course, the construction of such a mech on a small scale basis would have required hours of work by skilled craftsmen, carving each individual component out pretty much by hand. It occurs to me that with the advent of modern manufacturing techniques making small runs of precision components much more economical, such a project might be easier today. Laser cut sideplates, CNC machined gears and shafts and so forth, requiring only hand assembly and fettling.

 

Of course, the above presupposes a demand for such a mech and that's not a given. Norman Eagles, Jack Ray et al are  sadly long gone, as are their clockwork empires, and noone seems to have taken up the mantle. However, is that because there is no desire or because its now 80 odd years since anyone made a really good clockwork mech and those left are now in collectable models too valuable for intensive key twiddling? I don't know.

 

Like I said, just a random thought, but I thought I'd throw it out as I'd be interested in the opinions of those more conversant with the current coarse-scale world.

 

[sncf231e]

This weekend I spent 2 days with the Dutch HRCA group at the yearly  Eurospoor exhibition in Utrecht. Besides Hornby we also ran trains of the current coarse scale world like ACE and Darstaed. A couple of years ago I brought among some electric tinplate trains a clockwork Hornby loco with some coaches to Eurospoor and had a couple of runs. It was clear to me that my DHRCA colleagues and the public were not interested. This weekend one of the newer members also brought some clockwork trains to run and it looked like he and I were the only interested in clockwork. So I appreciate your thought but I am afraid there is not much market for it.

Here a video I made of the trains running on Friday; at the end a clockwork one!

 

"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StuLhlpfRNM"

 

 

 

Regards

Fred

Edited November 6, 2017 by sncf231e

[kernowtim]

Plenty of spring-drive action at last weekends exhibition organized by the Cornwall o gauge guild group, and various newer 3 rail locos!!

And I bought a copy of Jack Ray's book for £1.00

Edited November 6, 2017 by kernowtim

[Old-sparky]

Both Walker-Fenn and Van Riemsdijk made commercial clockwork locos with effective governors, and both types are still popular and sought after.

 

There is also a guy in the states, who has built 'modern clockwork', using a very powerful spring, which is rather like an old-fashioned roll-film canister in configuration.

 

The big issue with clockwork is that it is a pretty poor way of storing energy in comparison with, say, batteries or capacitors; the 'energy density' is very low.

 

That having been said, it would be rather fun to try a modern clockwork. It might be a bit less frustrating than the old, un-governed, ones, which really need the layout to be designed especially for them.

 

Kevin (usually Nearholmer. Don't ask!)

[Annie]

I know a lot of collectors frown on clockwork and will even convert lovely original clockwork locomotives to electric traction which I think is awful.  A few years ago now when I was helping out with the New Zealand Auckland HRCA layout the response from the watching public was quite positive when I ran my 'clockers' as that was the kind of tinplate trains they remembered best and had personal experience of.  

A book I've owned since I was a teenager is 'The Electric Control of Clockwork Railways' by Ernest F Carter and I must admit I've always wanted to give some of the ideas in it a try.  I would like to try the telephone dial governor adaptation too, but it seems old dial phones are now 'collectible' and people want silly money for them.

 

[GoingUnderground]

This weekend I spent 2 days with the Dutch HRCA group at the yearly Eurospoor exhibition in Utrecht. Besides Hornby we also ran trains of the current coarse scale world like ACE and Darstaed. A couple of years ago I brought among some electric tinplate trains a clockwork Hornby loco with some coaches to Eurospoor and had a couple of runs. It was clear to me that my DHRCA colleagues and the public were not interested. This weekend one of the newer members also brought some clockwork trains to run and it looked like he and I were the only interested in clockwork. So I appreciate your thought but I am afraid there is not much market for it.

Here a video I made of the trains running on Friday; at the end a clockwork one!

 

"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StuLhlpfRNM"

 

 

 

Regards

Fred

The first loco in your clip, the black 0-4-0 is a 1950s/1960s Hornby clockwork loco. It was their last 0 gauge loco. I have 2 of them. Both quite playworn, but it was me that played with them in the 50s and 60s and put them in their current condition.

[sncf231e]

The first loco in your clip, the black 0-4-0 is a 1950s/1960s Hornby clockwork loco. It was their last 0 gauge loco. I have 2 of them. Both quite playworn, but it was me that played with them in the 50s and 60s and put them in their current condition.

The first loco in the clip has the body of a Hornby postwar 0-4-0 tank-locomotive but it has the mechanism of an electric 0-4-0 (it is not one of my locos). I do have the clockwork version, also in LNER and LMS, and they still run:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87wHKiADgxA

 

Regards

Fred

[5050]

The first loco in the clip has the body of a Hornby postwar 0-4-0 tank-locomotive but it has the mechanism of an electric 0-4-0 (it is not one of my locos). I do have the clockwork version, also in LNER and LMS, and they still run:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87wHKiADgxA

 

Regards

Fred

I can't help but smile when I see trains like these running.  I have no ambition whatsoever of owning one but I always stand and watch if I ever see one at a show.  I suppose they somehow ignite a spark of my childhood memories with the Thomas, Percy and Sammy the Shunter stories.  Little engines with a lot of heart.

[AdamsRadial]

About eight years ago I remember finding a web-site devoted to an outdoor American railway with an interesting experiment: a spring-drive motor with the spring axis along the centreline of the boiler instead of at right-angles to it. I'm hoping I archived that site in my clippings collection, I'll dig it out. It does suggest that there is still some experimentation going on, though not at a manufacturing level.

[sncf231e]

About eight years ago I remember finding a web-site devoted to an outdoor American railway with an interesting experiment: a spring-drive motor with the spring axis along the centreline of the boiler instead of at right-angles to it. I'm hoping I archived that site in my clippings collection, I'll dig it out. It does suggest that there is still some experimentation going on, though not at a manufacturing level.

Is this the one? http://www.ngdr.net/Manifold/Clockwork/ClockworkARM1G/index.html

And here the video of it: https://youtu.be/FqrEiEOE-VQ

Regards

Fred

[GoingUnderground]

The first loco in the clip has the body of a Hornby postwar 0-4-0 tank-locomotive but it has the mechanism of an electric 0-4-0 (it is not one of my locos). I do have the clockwork version, also in LNER and LMS, and they still run:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87wHKiADgxA

 

Regards

Fred

 

Thank you for the correction. I saw the control lever and that's what made me think it was clockwork, and as far as I know, it was never sold by Hornby with an electric mechanism. On pausing the video clip I see that there was only one control lever whereas my clockwork ones have 2 levers, one for selecting forwards or reverse, and the other is the brake.

 

Why do the electric mechanisms  need a control lever when the loco is controlled from the controller? What was its pupose?

[Il Grifone]

Thank you for the correction. I saw the control lever and that's what made me think it was clockwork, and as far as I know, it was never sold by Hornby with an electric mechanism. On pausing the video clip I see that there was only one control lever whereas my clockwork ones have 2 levers, one for selecting forwards or reverse, and the other is the brake.

 

Why do the electric mechanisms  need a control lever when the loco is controlled from the controller? What was its pupose?

 

They made electric versions of the 0-4-0T pre-war, but post-war production was all clockwork (AFAIK possibly a few for export?). My first train (Xmas 1949) was the LMS version of the loco in the video (with one LMS and two LNER coaches similar to the above train, plus wagons). I was only two (nearly three - born in January) at the time, so too young to really appreciate them.... I'm still looking for a replacement, but do have two from the twenties. One still runs, but the other is incomplete and only has half of her mainspring. It was fractured in the middle (unusual, they usually go at the ends I think?). I fixed the broken end to the frame* and now she runs again. I must refit the other axle and make up motion and cylinders (they are really 2-2-0Ts as one axle only is driven and there are no coupling rods).

 

The electric motors are AC and the lever serves to reverse them. Reversing an AC motor requires some sort of switch or relay to reverse the phase of the field winding relative to those of the armature.

 

* The end was tempered in the gas flame (cooker & SWMBO out) and then bent to fit. An M1 0-4-0 was repaired in the same way (broken at the end on this one).

Edited February 8, 2018 by Il Grifone

[GoingUnderground]

.....The electric motors are AC and the lever serves to reverse them. Reversing an AC motor requires some sort of switch or relay to reverse the phase of the field winding relative to those of the armature....

Thank you for that information. I understand the issue with reversing the direction of rotation of an AC motor, you have to reverse the connections to either the stator or the armature windings. I hadn't appreciated that Hornby used AC motors in their O gauge locos. That wasn't clear from most of the literature that I've seen or read about Hornby tinplate O gauge. They tend to refer to the different voltages used at various times without saying whether it was AC or DC

[andyman7]

The electric motors are AC and the lever serves to reverse them. Reversing an AC motor requires some sort of switch or relay to reverse the phase of the field winding relative to those of the armature.

 

Having in the past year got to own and play with some of these I can confirm that they are great fun. It's remarkably hard to find information about the old Hornby trains on the internet (I'm talking about how they work and using them rather than images and details of the trains themselves). This is possibly because the generations who are most attached to them are still primarily analogue - having joined the HRCA it's like going back to the 80s with printed lists sent between members and ringing people up/sending SAEs/going to toyfairs.....

 

The most useful information has been gleaned by going back to first principles and actually getting hold of the catalogues and information leaflets which simply explain how everything works! From these I managed to establish that the reason that both 6 volt DC and 20 volt AC electric mechanisms were simultaneously offered was that back in the 30s mains electricity was not universal and the 6v models could more successfully be run off accumulators. The contemporary arrangement for plugging in a mains connection was a bayonet plug to attach to a lamp holder.

 

Anyhow, the 20v AC motor is run from a controller where full voltage is positioned on the control handle next to the 'off' position. To start the loco the handle is passed across this full voltage and across to the minimum voltage. The trains themselves have significant weight and heft, so don't fly off when the full voltage is passed through - but the burst of full current throws the reverser in the motor mechanism. This does mean that in normal mode the loco changes direction after being brought to a halt each time - however manually operating the knob in the cab over-rides this if you want the train to continue to operate in the same direction. It is all rather delightful.

[brianusa]

Having in the past year got to own and play with some of these I can confirm that they are great fun. It's remarkably hard to find information about the old Hornby trains on the internet (I'm talking about how they work and using them rather than images and details of the trains themselves). This is possibly because the generations who are most attached to them are still primarily analogue - having joined the HRCA it's like going back to the 80s with printed lists sent between members and ringing people up/sending SAEs/going to toyfairs.....

 

The most useful information has been gleaned by going back to first principles and actually getting hold of the catalogues and information leaflets which simply explain how everything works! From these I managed to establish that the reason that both 6 volt DC and 20 volt AC electric mechanisms were simultaneously offered was that back in the 30s mains electricity was not universal and the 6v models could more successfully be run off accumulators. The contemporary arrangement for plugging in a mains connection was a bayonet plug to attach to a lamp holder.

 

Anyhow, the 20v AC motor is run from a controller where full voltage is positioned on the control handle next to the 'off' position. To start the loco the handle is passed across this full voltage and across to the minimum voltage. The trains themselves have significant weight and heft, so don't fly off when the full voltage is passed through - but the burst of full current throws the reverser in the motor mechanism. This does mean that in normal mode the loco changes direction after being brought to a halt each time - however manually operating the knob in the cab over-rides this if you want the train to continue to operate in the same direction. It is all rather delightful.

 

I use a MTH controller rated at 24VAC.  It runs my Hornby trains well in normal mode and will switch direction at about 5VAC; saves an initial surge.

 

Brian

[Il Grifone]

I've converted both Trix and Märklin H0/00 motors to DC with the aid of rectifier diodes   (1N4007 usually, but other types are available). I assume a similar heresey can be performed on Hornby 0 gauge motors, using beefier diodes. The modification can always be removed and the original connections restored.

 

Knowing with certainty which way a locomotive will move is a great asset. I've found AC reversers to be temperamental beasts, even when they work properly.

Edited February 9, 2018 by Il Grifone

[sncf231e]

Most AC motors run on DC as well, however changing the polarity will not change the running direction. I run most of my Hornby and JEP with a LGB power supply.

Regards

Fred

[GoingUnderground]

It seems a pity to swap out a working clockwork mech for an electric one. But I do remember when as a child with my clockwork Hornby O gauge tinplate trains and I found out about the Hornby pre-war electric locos wishing that my locos were electric too.

[sncf231e]

It seems a pity to swap out a working clockwork mech for an electric one. But I do remember when as a child with my clockwork Hornby O gauge tinplate trains and I found out about the Hornby pre-war electric locos wishing that my locos were electric too.

The person who had done this to the 0-4-0 on the video still also has some clockwork locos (he has lots of Hornby). He is a member of the DutchHRCA: http://www.dutchhrca.nl/collnk.htm

Regards

Fred

[AdamsRadial]

Is this the one? http://www.ngdr.net/Manifold/Clockwork/ClockworkARM1G/index.html

And here the video of it: https://youtu.be/FqrEiEOE-VQ

Regards

Fred

Yes, that's the very one, thank you for that. I must get searching and see if they developed the long-barrel mechanism further.

[Nearholmer]

The thing that is easy to overlook about clockwork trains on casual viewing is that they can be seriously tedious to operate!

 

I have a few, and about once a year I have a ‘clockwork week’, where I run the layout with them for a couple of sessions. They always get put carefully away, because they are generally rather wild beasts, prone to going a bit too fast, and the amount of energy stored in a the typical spring is small, so that one is forever winding them up. It is possible to purpose-design a layout for clockwork operation, and thereby get less-frustrated, but there is a very good reason why people ‘went electric’ as soon as they could.

 

There are some ancient ‘clockers’ that are better mannered, notably those with Walker governors, and those with Van Riemsdijk speed control, and there the Bing ‘super clockwork’ of the late 1920s has well above-typical energy storage and duration, but these are all fairly rare beasts, and much harder to find than the Hornby or ordinary Bing ones, for instance.

 

My gut feel is that a loco that had a really serious spring, like that long-boiler one, and Walker governing, would actually be satisfying to operate in the long-term, but that unless such a thing whirs into view clockwork will remain a curiosity.

 

Kevin

 

PS: it might be better to think of ‘wound field motors’ rather than calling them AC motors, given that they are universal AC and DC machines. What we’ve got used to are permanent magnet motors, which are very definitely DC-only machines.

Edited February 14, 2018 by Nearholmer

[melmerby]

Most AC motors run on DC as well, however changing the polarity will not change the running direction. I run most of my Hornby and JEP with a LGB power supply.

Regards

Fred

They are presumably series wound commutating motors hence the phase reversal switch, which will also work when on a DC supply

 

Keith

Edited February 14, 2018 by melmerby

[coronach]

My late father collected gauge 0 locomotive clockwork mechanisms and draughted a series of drawings to 'prove' how these could be fitted into various pre-grouping locos- which were never built I have inherited around 50 4-coupled and 6-coupled mechanisms; Basset Lowke, Bing, Corby, Walker Fenn etc but don't know how to dispose of them (scrap metal would be unforgivable in my opinion). Any ideas ?

[coronach]

I am using them as still life subjects though.....

[Nearholmer]

Coronach

 

The BL ones would sell on eBay, any Walker Fenn ones ditto (or PM me, I’m interested), Hornsby also, but possibly slowly/cheaply.

 

Kevin