Varieties of BR Smokebox Number Plates

[Andy Kirkham]

Looking at this photo I noticed several differences in style between smokebox number plates:

 

Hi-Res R0293 by Bill Wright, on Flickr

 

On 73103, the numerals are taller than on 43130, while 61121 has the numerals squeezed closer together and also look flatter than on the others.

 

On this one https://flic.kr/p/ZgHNNX, 72006 has a plate with curved corners and a border (I have the impression that this is a Scottish characteristic).

 

This one seems to have LMS-style numerals which seem to be painted rather than cast https://flic.kr/p/GFuWjk

 

I wonder if anyone has ever taken the trouble to tabulate the variations in style. Was there a variety of specifications across the regions or between different works? Or was there a standard specification that was interpreted differently from works to works? 

Edited November 19, 2017 by Andy Kirkham

[pH]

We've been here before (a long time ago!), and I don't think anyone volunteered:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=36395&start=0&hilit=smokebox+number+size

[Andy Kirkham]

We've been here before (a long time ago!), and I don't think anyone volunteered:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=36395&start=0&hilit=smokebox+number+size

I thread to which I myself contributed and forgot all about   (but it was eight years ago)

Edited November 20, 2017 by Andy Kirkham

[Steamport Southport]

Looking at this photo I noticed several differences in style between smokebox number plates:

 

Hi-Res R0293 by Bill Wright, on Flickr

 

On 73103, the numerals are taller than on 43130, while 61121 has the numerals squeezed closer together and also look flatter than on the others.

 

On this one https://flic.kr/p/ZgHNNX, 72006 has a plate with curved corners and a border (I have the impression that this is a Scottish characteristic).

 

This one seems to have LMS-style numerals which seem to be painted rather than cast https://flic.kr/p/GFuWjk

 

I wonder if anyone has ever taken the trouble to tabulate the variations in style. Was there a variety of specifications across the regions or between different works? Or was there a standard specification that was interpreted differently from works to works? 

 

I would suggest that the Clan smokebox plate is a replica after the original one has gone "missing". The numbers are flat and not even level. Seems more like an handmade job. The Carlisle 12A shed plate is also painted on rather than a plate.

 

Notice that the nameplates are also missing so it must be near withdrawal which was in 1966.

 

Here's a photo without any plates. https://www.theclanproject.org/images/igallery/resized/501-600/colour_rail_g44205-520-800-600-80-rd-255-255-255.jpg

 

The plates here don't look right either. https://farm6.static.flickr.com/5579/14052984188_92e4affdd8_b.jpg

 

 

 

 

Jason

[davefrk]

I had read somewhere that BR Standard s/b number plates had slightly larger letters as seen on the clan.

 

Dave.

[cctransuk]

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=36395

 

Regards,

John isherwood.

[bike2steam]

The pic shows number plates in the general gill sans font, but many LMR locos carried sans serif.

[Grovenor]

The pic shows number plates in the general gill sans font, but many LMR locos carried sans serif.

Surely "sans serif" is the general term, for any font without serifs, and "Gill sans" is one specific such font used by BR.

On initial renumbering in 1947/8 some LMR locos had new number plates in the standard LMS font.

Regards

[cctransuk]

Surely "sans serif" is the general term, for any font without serifs, and "Gill sans" is one specific such font used by BR.

On initial renumbering in 1947/8 some LMR locos had new number plates in the standard LMS font.

Regards

 

Correct - but many smokebox numberplates had non-standard number forms - particularly curly 6s and 9s; see :-

 

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=br+SMOKEBOX+NUMBER+PLATEs&client=firefox-b&dcr=0&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiiuKONh87XAhXMJMAKHXTVAjoQ_AUICygC&biw=1536&bih=754

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[DCB]

Whacking any old tat on for a smokebox numberplate has ruined countless otherwise excellent models,the (G) WR ones seem worst as some people just can't understand the plate goes on brackets and fits along the top door hinge.

 

I made plates for a number of locos years ago on a computer and good quality photocopier and it was a devil of a job to get a font that was anything like right, and when I did the letters had to be spaced apart, something like 36 point letters with 8 point spaces between to get the proportions right which I then had to reduce on the copier to get the size right. 30 years ago I could paint them on 00 locos and think nothing of it...

 

Can anyone identify the font Swindon actually used or a very near equivalent, because sadly various computers have departed and fonts come and go and I no longer have the data for the plates I made.

[bike2steam]

Correct - but many smokebox numberplates had non-standard number forms - particularly curly 6s and 9s; 

Thanks - that's what I meant, so I should've put it that way   

[Andy Kirkham]

Whacking any old tat on for a smokebox numberplate has ruined countless otherwise excellent models,the (G) WR ones seem worst as some people just can't understand the plate goes on brackets and fits along the top door hinge.

 

 

I think we can't help reading a loco's smokebox front as its face, and the number plate as its eyes. Our brains are wired to register the tiniest differences in facial features, so we are particularly sensitive to the placing of the numberplate (or at least some of us are).

 

I suspect that my regional loyalties were partly influenced by the placing of smokebox number plates. So many ex-LNER locomotives just don't look right with their "eyes" up in their foreheads, while ex-Midland and L&Y ones are disconcerting because their "eyes" are where their noses should be. On the other hand, Western and BR Standard faces and Stanier's LMS ones look just right.

Edited November 21, 2017 by Andy Kirkham

[unravelled]

Slightly off topic, I have been wondering about lasercutting some mdf replica numberplates, so this discussion might bring it a step closer. One dimension  which I haven't spotted so far is the length of a WR smkebox numberplate. Can anyone say what they are, assuming they are all the same. The height has been given as 6" with 4 7/8 " digits.

 

Thanks

 

Dave

[cctransuk]

Slightly off topic, I have been wondering about lasercutting some mdf replica numberplates, so this discussion might bring it a step closer. One dimension  which I haven't spotted so far is the length of a WR smkebox numberplate. Can anyone say what they are, assuming they are all the same. The height has been given as 6" with 4 7/8 " digits.

 

Thanks

 

Dave

 

 

See https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=BR+smokebox+number+plates&client=firefox-b&dcr=0&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjT8sb4zs_XAhXlIMAKHZ3wACIQ_AUICygC&biw=1536&bih=754

 

 

If your 6" height is correct, the length is 1' - 9''.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood

[RfDforever]

May I point out a source of square-on photos of s/b plates? If you go to the web sites of any of the railwayana auctioneers (Great Central, Great Northern, Great Western, Talisman, Crewe etc.) their catalogues will illustrate ones that are or were for sale - they usually have archive records of past auctions, and, in some cases, identify the appropriate lots. 

As has already been said, the s/b was looked at so often in spotting days (particularly loco coming the other way) that small differences became noticeable. Although in my days all the LM ones with heavily seriffed LMS style numbers had been replaced, there were broadly two styles; one the standard Gill and another, on locos o/hld at Derby, of a slightly different style. In the latter, a '2' did not come to a point at the bottom l.h. side but made a right angle and the '3' and '5' had much smaller gaps between the open circle on the right hand side - the overall impression was more rounded.

Swindon used larger plates (presumably because of shorter numbers on ex GW locos) but they also used larger plates on the WDs they prepared for service. There was a magazine article somewhere about this; Spring Branch sent the wrong condemned WD to Central Wagon and it had been partly cut up before the mistake was noticed. To 'correct' the situation the painted numbers were altered but when the s/b plate was brought back from Central Wagon for the simple task of swapping over it didn't fit...

Edited November 22, 2017 by RfDforever

[cctransuk]

May I point out a source of square-on photos of s/b plates? If you go to the web sites of any of the railwayana auctioneers (Great Central, Great Northern, Great Western, Talisman, Crewe etc.) their catalogues will illustrate ones that are or were for sale - they usually have archive records of past auctions, and, in some cases, identify the appropriate lots.

 

..... which is where the link in the post above yours takes you, amongst others.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Miss Prism]

Thanks for the above. It's a shame that some of the old RMweb threads are now inaccessible. Anyway, I've done a little graphic for gwr.org.uk, but the problem is that 4 7/8" quoted above for the numerals doesn't seem right (assuming 6" is correct for the plate height). Scaling off a prototype pic, the numerals are nearer 5.1" high.

 

 

 

 

[cctransuk]

1 hour ago, Miss Prism said:

Thanks for the above. It's a shame that some of the old RMweb threads are now inaccessible. Anyway, I've done a little graphic for gwr.org.uk, but the problem is that 4 7/8" quoted above for the numerals doesn't seem right (assuming 6" is correct for the plate height). Scaling off a prototype pic, the numerals are nearer 5.1" high.

 

 

 

 

 

I believe that the numerals on ex-GWR (and BR-built?) locos may have been larger than for locos of LNER, LMS & SR origin.

 

CJI.

[cctransuk]

11 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

I believe that the numerals on ex-GWR (and BR-built?) locos may have been larger than for locos of LNER, LMS & SR origin.

 

CJI.

 

Ian Rathbone quotes 5" for BR smokebox numbers on ex-GWR locos.

 

CJI.

[Miss Prism]

Many thanks. I should have thought of Ian Rathbone (doh!). Scaling from photos still leads to 5 1/8", but I guess there might be some parallax error, so will go along with 5".

 

[asmay2002]

10 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

Thanks for the above. It's a shame that some of the old RMweb threads are now inaccessible. Anyway, I've done a little graphic for gwr.org.uk, but the problem is that 4 7/8" quoted above for the numerals doesn't seem right (assuming 6" is correct for the plate height). Scaling off a prototype pic, the numerals are nearer 5.1" high.

 

 

 

 

The plates were supposed to be 5 7/8" high but there was variation between castings.

[Miss Prism]

Thanks. A 5 7/8" high plate validates the 5" height for the numerals.

[Hal Nail]

Here is another non standard - painted wood I think I read somewhere.

 

 

Edit. looks like the shed plate has taken a knock as well?

 

Edited November 7, 2023 by Hal Nail