Rapido LMS/GWR/BR Gunpowder Vans announced!

[mdvle]

1 minute ago, Covkid said:

 

I wonder if the reason Gareth Bayer seems to have moved to Accurascale has anything to do with it.

 

There are apparently rumours around, particularly over in the US, but it would make sense if one of the reasons he joined Rapido was to develop the UK products and then that being paused.

[Steamport Southport]

I feel any reference to the "B word" is a total ignoratio elenchi.

 

Or in terms that Rapido may use a Chewbacca Defence...

 

 

 

Jason

[phil-b259]

21 minutes ago, Covkid said:

 

I wonder if the reason Gareth Bayer seems to have moved to Accurascale has anything to do with it.

 

I would suggest that Gareth seemingly moved to Aurascale precisely because B****t issues made Rapido pause their plans for UK expansion and not the other way round.

[phil-b259]

9 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

I feel any reference to the "B word" is a total ignoratio elenchi. 

 

Or in terms that Rapido may use a Chewbacca Defence...

 

 

 

Jason

 

If you actually read what Rapido have publicly said :-

 

In June, Bill from Rapido said (and I quote)

 

"We're proceeding with several project already announced, but both we and our partners have decided that it would be best to hold off on any new announcements until we all see what impact current going-on in the Brexit situation will have."

 

In the most recent Rapido newsletter Jason said (and I quote)

 

"I apologise for not being in touch; we really should have given you a quick update. The truth is we haven't had much news for you. This is entirely due to the country's most contentious word, Brexit. (Sorry!) Being ignorant colonials who are still busy building log cabins and trading beaver pelts, we are neither for nor against Brexit. What we are against is economic uncertainty. Too much inventory is a bad thing a new locomotive project, for instance, can cost a fortune in tooling and product costs which has to be paid by us before we ship a single model and thus before we get paid by our customers. Now if we invest that into a Canadian or American model, there is always the risk that the economy will collapse and we'd be left with gazillions of unsold models. It happened in 2009/2010. With the economic uncertainty surrounding Brexit, that risk is far greater for UK projects. So we've had no choice but to "pause" our UK expansion plans until things settle out a bit. But just as the Midland Mainline will indeed get electrified north of Corby, we do still plan to open a UK company and expand our British product line. Hopefully that will happen before the wires reach Nottingham"

 

So ITS CRYSTAL CLEAR from Rapido themselves that B****t IS MOST DEFINITELY the reason for Rapido pulling the plug on releasing UK products for the foreseeable future - Stop pretending it isn't!

 

Or are you saying Jason, Bill, etc are all telling us outright lies?

 

Yes the lack of certain model trains is hardly the end of the world - but it still stands we wouldn't be in this situation if the 2016 vote had gone the other way (or the politicians hadn't made such a mess of things in the intervening years). Rapido are not the first to pull out of investing in projects that expose them to UK markets because of B****T - and they won't be the last either.

[Covkid]

13 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

I would suggest that Gareth seemingly moved to Aurascale precisely because B****t issues made Rapido pause their plans for UK expansion and not the other way round.

 Good point.

[micklner]

13 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

If you actually read what Rapido have publicly said :-

 

In June, Bill from Rapido said (and I quote)

 

"We're proceeding with several project already announced, but both we and our partners have decided that it would be best to hold off on any new announcements until we all see what impact current going-on in the Brexit situation will have."

 

In the most recent Rapido newsletter Jason said (and I quote)

 

"I apologise for not being in touch; we really should have given you a quick update. The truth is we haven't had much news for you. This is entirely due to the country's most contentious word, Brexit. (Sorry!) Being ignorant colonials who are still busy building log cabins and trading beaver pelts, we are neither for nor against Brexit. What we are against is economic uncertainty. Too much inventory is a bad thing a new locomotive project, for instance, can cost a fortune in tooling and product costs which has to be paid by us before we ship a single model and thus before we get paid by our customers. Now if we invest that into a Canadian or American model, there is always the risk that the economy will collapse and we'd be left with gazillions of unsold models. It happened in 2009/2010. With the economic uncertainty surrounding Brexit, that risk is far greater for UK projects. So we've had no choice but to "pause" our UK expansion plans until things settle out a bit. But just as the Midland Mainline will indeed get electrified north of Corby, we do still plan to open a UK company and expand our British product line. Hopefully that will happen before the wires reach Nottingham"

 

So ITS CRYSTAL CLEAR from Rapido themselves that B****t IS MOST DEFINITELY the reason for Rapido pulling the plug on releasing UK products for the foreseeable future - Stop pretending it isn't!

 

Or are you saying Jason, Bill, etc are all telling us outright lies?

 

Yes the lack of certain model trains is hardly the end of the world - but it still stands we wouldn't be in this situation if the 2016 vote had gone the other way (or the politicians hadn't made such a mess of things in the intervening years). Rapido are not the first to pull out of investing in projects that expose them to UK markets because of B****T - and they won't be the last either.

Not saying lying before any over reaction from anybody.

If you have read the Rapido current email thay have just failed to get enough buyers for a America/Canadian Steam loco as well. Perhaps reigning in the sales lists ,as they are pushing too hard at the moment.

Like any company if the product isnt selling , you have to limit production. Gunpowder van how popular would thay be anyway ? I was also surprised at the money they have poured into the Bus project  ( how may Bus fans are there in the UK ?) , no idea how may will sell, hopefully they make a nice profit !!

We need companies like Rapido to be succesfull ,as to Breeeeexit words fail me as to farce it has become.

Edited November 23, 2019 by micklner

[Miss Prism]

55 minutes ago, micklner said:

Gunpowder van how popular would thay be anyway ?

 

Not very. If Rapido think obscure prototypes are a bit funky, and then try to produce a compromise generic version, they can hardly complain if the demand drops away.

 

[Mark Saunders]

1 hour ago, Miss Prism said:

 

Not very. If Rapido think obscure prototypes are a bit funky, and then try to produce a compromise generic version, they can hardly complain if the demand drops away.

 

 

What do you mean obscure these were long lived and well travelled!

 

I can't work out what you actually want from manufacturers if you rubbish these vans as obscure then the newly announced Accurascale flask carrier of which there are only two are really obscure!

 

Mark Saunders

[Covkid]

4 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

 

Not very. If Rapido think obscure prototypes are a bit funky, and then try to produce a compromise generic version, they can hardly complain if the demand drops away.

 

 

2 hours ago, Mark Saunders said:

 

What do you mean obscure these were long lived and well travelled!

 

I can't work out what you actually want from manufacturers if you rubbish these vans as obscure then the newly announced Accurascale flask carrier of which there are only two are really obscure!

 

Mark Saunders

 

Totally agree with Mark.  I started my career on the Cambrian in 1978, and before that I was at school in Tywyn, opposite the BR yard. Most days that the goods ran to Portmadoc or Pwllheli there were gunpowder vans in the consist to / from Nobel nee Cookes at Penrhyndeudraeth.  The vans were mostly the BR version with the B887xxx numbers  but occasional ex LMS numbered vans passed through.

 

I don't remember all the destinations now but Blairhall, Coxlodge, Wednesbury and maybe Carterton were at least some of the destinations of well over a dozen. IIRC they could only despatch four per train and they had to "barrier" from the loco and brakevan, normally by 12 ton vans or 16 ton minerals. 

 

Nice Flicker pic here of a 24 shunting Penrhyn in 1975, showing a raft of CXVs behind some Cattle vans useds as barriers 

 

 

Edited November 23, 2019 by Covkid

[hmrspaul]

Well said Mark. The LMS Gunpowders lasted from the late 1920s until c1980 - I can remember seeing one of the early ones  M2xxxxx in Brent yard when I was going to an S4 exhibition c1980. And we have an accurate drawing of the BR ones - I know, I did the measuring. They got all over as explosives were used in quarries and they tended to be in outlying areas - so you get them in small yards like my photos at Truro.

 

Paul

[Covkid]

Further to my previous post I just picked up "The diesels deliver" by Ian Sixsmith.  Rather nice colour piccie on page 69 of the up Goods leaving Barmouth behind a rather scruffy green 5142 (displaying 1M41 !!) . On the loco are three fitted vans of which the middle one is an ex LMS design "slider" then there are a raft of gunpowder vans, the image dated September 1971.

 

From the footplate - The Cambrian Coast Express by Stephen Austin has a nice monochrome going away shot on page 87.  2nd September 1965 and 75004 is shunting adjacent to the Talyllyn railway wharf station with a number of mixed wagons.  The first van is an LMS design "slider" then there are three GPVs, slope sided mineral etc etc. The GPVs are caption as Iron Mink which was the GWR description of course.   

[Steamport Southport]

20 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

If you actually read what Rapido have publicly said :-

 

In June, Bill from Rapido said (and I quote)

 

"We're proceeding with several project already announced, but both we and our partners have decided that it would be best to hold off on any new announcements until we all see what impact current going-on in the Brexit situation will have."

 

In the most recent Rapido newsletter Jason said (and I quote)

 

"I apologise for not being in touch; we really should have given you a quick update. The truth is we haven't had much news for you. This is entirely due to the country's most contentious word, Brexit. (Sorry!) Being ignorant colonials who are still busy building log cabins and trading beaver pelts, we are neither for nor against Brexit. What we are against is economic uncertainty. Too much inventory is a bad thing a new locomotive project, for instance, can cost a fortune in tooling and product costs which has to be paid by us before we ship a single model and thus before we get paid by our customers. Now if we invest that into a Canadian or American model, there is always the risk that the economy will collapse and we'd be left with gazillions of unsold models. It happened in 2009/2010. With the economic uncertainty surrounding Brexit, that risk is far greater for UK projects. So we've had no choice but to "pause" our UK expansion plans until things settle out a bit. But just as the Midland Mainline will indeed get electrified north of Corby, we do still plan to open a UK company and expand our British product line. Hopefully that will happen before the wires reach Nottingham"

 

So ITS CRYSTAL CLEAR from Rapido themselves that B****t IS MOST DEFINITELY the reason for Rapido pulling the plug on releasing UK products for the foreseeable future - Stop pretending it isn't!

 

Or are you saying Jason, Bill, etc are all telling us outright lies?

 

Yes the lack of certain model trains is hardly the end of the world - but it still stands we wouldn't be in this situation if the 2016 vote had gone the other way (or the politicians hadn't made such a mess of things in the intervening years). Rapido are not the first to pull out of investing in projects that expose them to UK markets because of B****T - and they won't be the last either.

 

I have read it.

 

A total red herring. It's an easy get out clause, "just blame Brexit" for anything. How a Canadian manufacturer that mostly sells things in the US, which are made in China is affected by Brexit is baffling.

 

Not lies, just the fear factor and fake news* that has been perpetuated by the media and politicians for the last three or four years. But that is meandering towards politics....

 

 

*Like ones I've seen in certain newspapers saying that we won't be playing in the Champions League or the Eurovision Song Contest.

 

 

 

Jason

[mdvle]

33 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

A total red herring. It's an easy get out clause, "just blame Brexit" for anything. How a Canadian manufacturer that mostly sells things in the US, which are made in China is affected by Brexit is baffling.

 

Selling their own product line in the UK involves setting up a UK division of Rapido, and investment that Rapido (along with a lot of other companies based on company statements and government statistics) cannot justify at the moment without knowing what is going to happen and how things end up.

 

And while I have no proof, my suspicion is that US sales for Rapido are around half given the percentage of their product line that is uniquely Canadian.

[mdvle]

6 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

Not very. If Rapido think obscure prototypes are a bit funky, and then try to produce a compromise generic version, they can hardly complain if the demand drops away.

 

To be clear they weren't planning on making a "compromise generic version", that's not how Rapido do things.

 

They were clear that the 3D print that was shown 2 years ago was a mixture of different versions put together unexpectedly by a new engineer in China, and that (if they had proceeded to making the official announcement) it would be  the correct accurate variations for the prototypes they were going to do. (see the posts on page 2 from rapidobill and rapidotrains).

 

7 hours ago, micklner said:

If you have read the Rapido current email thay have just failed to get enough buyers for a America/Canadian Steam loco as well. Perhaps reigning in the sales lists ,as they are pushing too hard at the moment.

Like any company if the product isnt selling , you have to limit production.

 

One, it was a Canadian Steam locomotive - specifically it was an accurate Canadian National H-6-d/g - and as such would hold no interest to anyone in the US unless they are part of the small minority who model CN steam.

 

Second, steam is a hard sell in North America.  Locos are expensive (the CN H-6 was $500/$600, and that compares favourably to the prices at Broadway Limited), they are frequently "generic" given how many railroads (all doing their own thing) there were in the steam era in the US, and the selection is very limited.  The selection of rolling stock is also limited, particularly cabooses and passenger equipment (and the US/Canada don't have the kit industry that the UK has).

 

Third, steam is expensive to tool.  On the podcast interview Jason compared the Royal Hudson steam loco with the B36-7.  Both generated the same $ amount in sales, but the B36-7 was 1/3 the cost to tool (or alternately, for the same money they could tool up 3 diesels and generate 3x the sales).  Given that a manufacturer spends say 2 years spending serious money before getting paid it only makes sense to focus more on those products that provide a better return.

 

Finally, they have only put the H-6 on hold with the hope that the steam loco that did get enough orders (Canadian Pacific D10) will help drive sales once people see it in the flesh.

 

As for the "pushing too hard at the moment" and "reigning in sales lists", totally false.  Rapido have made it clear in the last couple of months (and in the podcast interview Jason did) that there are a bunch more models in the production queue and we can likely expect a few more announcements this year (perhaps on Boxing Day given they did that last year).

 

 

 

[phil-b259]

2 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

I have read it.

 

A total red herring. It's an easy get out clause, "just blame Brexit" for anything. How a Canadian manufacturer that mostly sells things in the US, which are made in China is affected by Brexit is baffling.

 

Not lies, just the fear factor and fake news* that has been perpetuated by the media and politicians for the last three or four years. But that is meandering towards politics....

 

 

So you are accusing Jason (of Rapido) and co of lying then!

 

Just to be clear then:- in your eyes  the UK model railway community should ignore the statements of the people who actually run Rapido and listen  to you - a person on the other side of the Atlantic who has no access to internal Rapido documents, their financial workings or the due diligence which any business undertakes when reviewing expansion plans.

 

If a company announces they are taking a certain course of action as a result of Brexit - it should be respected!

 

What you may personally think is irrelevant.

 

Just because it doesn't fit with "Everything will be fine" nonsense peddled by Leave supporters doesn't give you the right to trash said decisions - which will be based on expert analysis, not on the rantings of a wannabe, or indeed some elected politicians.

 

Ultimately RM-web is meant to be free of Brexit debate - lets leave it that way! If a company like Rapido says that they are pausing UK investment because of Brexit then thats NOT open for debate*!

 

* or snide remarks which disrespect that official stance.

 

 

Edited November 23, 2019 by phil-b259

[micklner]

44 minutes ago, mdvle said:

 

To be clear they weren't planning on making a "compromise generic version", that's not how Rapido do things.

 

They were clear that the 3D print that was shown 2 years ago was a mixture of different versions put together unexpectedly by a new engineer in China, and that (if they had proceeded to making the official announcement) it would be  the correct accurate variations for the prototypes they were going to do. (see the posts on page 2 from rapidobill and rapidotrains).

 

 

One, it was a Canadian Steam locomotive - specifically it was an accurate Canadian National H-6-d/g - and as such would hold no interest to anyone in the US unless they are part of the small minority who model CN steam.

 

Second, steam is a hard sell in North America.  Locos are expensive (the CN H-6 was $500/$600, and that compares favourably to the prices at Broadway Limited), they are frequently "generic" given how many railroads (all doing their own thing) there were in the steam era in the US, and the selection is very limited.  The selection of rolling stock is also limited, particularly cabooses and passenger equipment (and the US/Canada don't have the kit industry that the UK has).

 

Third, steam is expensive to tool.  On the podcast interview Jason compared the Royal Hudson steam loco with the B36-7.  Both generated the same $ amount in sales, but the B36-7 was 1/3 the cost to tool (or alternately, for the same money they could tool up 3 diesels and generate 3x the sales).  Given that a manufacturer spends say 2 years spending serious money before getting paid it only makes sense to focus more on those products that provide a better return.

 

Finally, they have only put the H-6 on hold with the hope that the steam loco that did get enough orders (Canadian Pacific D10) will help drive sales once people see it in the flesh.

 

As for the "pushing too hard at the moment" and "reigning in sales lists", totally false.  Rapido have made it clear in the last couple of months (and in the podcast interview Jason did) that there are a bunch more models in the production queue and we can likely expect a few more announcements this year (perhaps on Boxing Day given they did that last year).

 

 

 

1.

America was only mentioned as I could'nt remember which country it was meant for , as I have no interest either way of the country of origin, as not UK. The relevant Rapido email was already deleted by me.

2.

   Sorry No interest.

3.

   Sorry No interest ,as to whether North America like them or not.

  Its very obvious Tooling is expensive on anything, it only becomes cheaper when you can sell anything in large numbers.

In the case of Rapido, its their choice on what they offer and like any other company what they think is viable and will make  a profit.

 Thats what makes the Wanted Poll listed on here important to any makers of UK based railway stock.

4.

   Good luck to them. In the current financial climate everybody, personally and in business needs to take care. As to what Rapido does and/or actually makes which is  UK themed and delievered ,and even then the right company and era, until then not my concern or of any interest to me.

     You have also contradicted yourself as you are now saying that Rapido are concentrating on what will sell , I see no difference in that to reigning in sales and/or pushing too hard.

 

   Totally false really 

 

 

 

[mdvle]

3 hours ago, micklner said:

1.

America was only mentioned as I could'nt remember which country it was meant for , as I have no interest either way of the country of origin, as not UK. The relevant Rapido email was already deleted by me.

 

Fair enough, but it does have relevance in as much as the Canadian model railway market is much smaller than the American one (the population ratio is about 10:1 in favour of the Americans).  Thus an American project failing would be a much bigger deal in general.

 

3 hours ago, micklner said:

     You have also contradicted yourself as you are now saying that Rapido are concentrating on what will sell , I see no difference in that to reigning in sales and/or pushing too hard.

 

No, I said Rapido are pushing ahead and if anything accelerating their development of new projects.

 

Reigning-in (or Reining-in) means to slow down.

 

Pushing too hard implies that they need to slow down.

 

Given that Rapido are doing the opposite, I don't see a contradiction.

[Hilux5972]

I thought Rails had announced these. 

[Ozexpatriate]

On 22/11/2019 at 03:32, The Stationmaster said:

But they have two adjacent stands at Warley this weekend so anybody who wants if  from 'the horse's mouth' can no doubt put the question to them there.

This is a much more sensible observation than all the back and forth going above on this page, though I would stipulate that I thought the Rapido UK newsletter was quite clear in terms of Rapido's plans for British outline products.

 

It is my understanding that Jason Shron will be at Warley so there's a day left to ask him.

[Neil]

17 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

I have read it.

 

A total red herring. It's an easy get out clause, "just blame Brexit" for anything. How a Canadian manufacturer that mostly sells things in the US, which are made in China is affected by Brexit is baffling.

 

Not lies, just the fear factor and fake news* that has been perpetuated by the media and politicians for the last three or four years. But that is meandering towards politics....

 

 

*Like ones I've seen in certain newspapers saying that we won't be playing in the Champions League or the Eurovision Song Contest.

 

 

 

Jason

 

This is a pretty sad reflection of how the prospect of Brexit has damaged life in the UK. It's polarised us to the extent that an upfront statement from Rapido, by the very people steering the company is not believed because it doesn't fit with one's currently held world view. If we're to make rational choices then we must start to trust others who have no particular axe to grind and then be honest with ourselves and others. 

Edited November 24, 2019 by Neil
grammar

[JSpencer]

On 24/11/2019 at 08:52, Neil said:

 

This is a pretty sad reflection of how the prospect of Brexit has damaged life in the UK. It's polarised us to the extent that an upfront statement from Rapido, by the very people steering the company is not believed because it doesn't fit with one's currently held world view. If we're to make rational choices then we must start to trust others who have no particular axe to grind and then be honest with ourselves and others. 

 

Indeed, the political landscape is based on "opinion", Rapido's and any other business's business decisions are based on "facts" and calculating out the best and  worst case scenarios. I've done some of these calculations myself and when you are the one actually sticking money on the line, worldly opinions don't count. What you could possibly gain or loose does.

Rapido don't care about being in or out, they just want the market to stay stable over the few year period it takes to invest and get a return on that investment. If there is risk of the pound dropping through the floor, governments putting up trade tariffs, tax etc... then logic dictates to sit and wait for the storm to blow over.

[TheSignalEngineer]

24 minutes ago, JSpencer said:

Indeed, the political landscape is based on "opinion", Rapido's and any other business's business decisions are based on "facts" and calculating out the best and  worst case scenarios.

My daughter has a role in a multinational company recommending on where products should be made for the best return on investment. This is not in toy trains or the like but in products which many people around the world rely on for their daily survival due to medical conditions.  The company has worldwide in-house manufacturing facilities and has spent £40million just to ensure continuity of supply to its customers for all potential outcomes of the current political situation. 

To put it into context that amount of cash would probably buy the whole of a year's production of Hornby trains and leave you with some change.

 

[PMP]

On ‎23‎/‎11‎/‎2019 at 14:30, Steamport Southport said:

 

I have read it.

 

A total red herring. It's an easy get out clause, "just blame Brexit" for anything. How a Canadian manufacturer that mostly sells things in the US, which are made in China is affected by Brexit is baffling.

 

Not lies, just the fear factor and fake news* that has been perpetuated by the media and politicians for the last three or four years. But that is meandering towards politics....

 

Jason

 

It's not that baffling surely?

Most savvy school kids could see Brexit will have potentially a significant impact on a non-UK based company that sources its product from China and exports them to the UK, from their home country Canada.

Canadian company, makes product in China, ships it to Canada and exports it to the UK from Canada.

 

Most savvy school kids could see NAFTA withdrawal will have potentially a significant impact on a non-US based company that sources it product from China and exports them to the US, from their home country Canada. 

Canadian company, makes product in China, ships it to Canada and exports it to the US from Canada.

 

So facing one definite unknown, Brexit, and a second potential market/tariff re-alignment if the US leaves NAFTA and any changes under CUSMA, you're suggesting what specific course of action for Rapido?

 

I'm particularly interested in the impact of USD/CAD/GBP/CNY exchange rates and how you see those changing over the next five years and what the drivers behind those fluctuations will be, and when.

[mdvle]

1 hour ago, PMP said:

Canadian company, makes product in China, ships it to Canada and exports it to the UK from Canada.

 

The product wouldn't detour via Canada, it would go direct China->UK as I believe the recent bus release did.

 

Quote

Most savvy school kids could see NAFTA withdrawal will have potentially a significant impact on a non-US based company that sources it product from China and exports them to the US, from their home country Canada. 

Canadian company, makes product in China, ships it to Canada and exports it to the US from Canada.

 

I could be wrong here, but NAFTA/etc. shouldn't have any direct impact on Rapido as they don't make anything in Canada.  The model trains are treated as a China import, even with a detour through Canada.  Also, CUSMA is essentially NAFTA from a Canada/US perspective, the changes (so far) are very minor.

 

The two bigger issues simply are the US-China trade war (there are currently scheduled tariff introduction for mid-December that will apply to model trains) and the unpredictability of Trump.

 

While the Trump Tariff won't increases costs to Canadian customers, anything Rapido sells into the US will need to pay the tariff.

 

So facing potential turmoil in the larger market, making the investment(*) in another market that is also facing uncertainties just doesn't make a sense.

 

1 hour ago, PMP said:

I'm particularly interested in the impact of USD/CAD/GBP/CNY exchange rates and how you see those changing over the next five years and what the drivers behind those fluctuations will be, and when.

 

An important point.  Given that most of China's trade is with the US and other factors, the $US dominates pricing.  This is a sort of built in defense for selling in the $US market as it helps insulate US consumers from currency changes.  The GBP on the other hand doesn't have such an advantage.

 

* - Rapido, for the small amount of "Rapido brand" product it sells in the UK (North American models, the bus) uses Rails of Sheffield to handle things, and other than the bus this really is more of a courtesy to UK modellers given that I don't believe any of the other North American manufacturers have such an arrangement.  But if they were to enter the UK market properly they would need to set up a UK division, with staff and office/warehouse space and all the paperwork and costs that involves.  So it's not just that they feel the development costs are a risk at this point, but also the additional overhead costs.

Edited November 25, 2019 by mdvle

[TheSignalEngineer]

 

1 hour ago, PMP said:

Most savvy school kids could see Brexit will have potentially a significant impact on a non-UK based company that sources its product from China and exports them to the UK, from their home country Canada.

At the time of the deal being touted by the previous PM my seven-year-old grandson had difficulty in seeing why it was sensible to push through a deal which was worse than the one you already had in place to satisfy internal party arguments. Obviously not cut out for a career in politics.

Edited November 25, 2019 by TheSignalEngineer
Typos