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N gauge Crowdfunded APT-P (Warley announcement)


DJM Dave
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Actually I think I meant to say 7 car formation due to the shared bogie arrangements of the cars between trailer and power car.

 

Anyway - sometimes you have to make the decision for the customer and just collapse the N gauge down to 7 car sets or nothing.

 

As it is we care going to get nothing anyway - so an excellent compromise is better than disappointment.

 

Either way fingers crossed Xx

 

We don't know which are the best sellers, it might be 14 car sets for all we know.

While having too many sets is one thing, there is (in OO gauge at least) a saturation of new items all over the place which I'm certain means people cannot commit just yet until the other things are out of the way.  Sure we could argue that the market should focus on this or that model, but while an APT-P will be priority for some, for others it could be the class 92 or a King or a ... 

 

My point is, each announcement dilutes where the money goes making it harder to get a full order book for a given item. In OO small tank locos below £100 do ok, bigger items like the Grey Blue Pullman are probably struggling. If it was alone as a new announcement, then it would sell to those who fancy one and have nothing else more important to choose from right now. 

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We don't know which are the best sellers, it might be 14 car sets for all we know.

While having too many sets is one thing, there is (in OO gauge at least) a saturation of new items all over the place which I'm certain means people cannot commit just yet until the other things are out of the way.  Sure we could argue that the market should focus on this or that model, but while an APT-P will be priority for some, for others it could be the class 92 or a King or a ... 

 

My point is, each announcement dilutes where the money goes making it harder to get a full order book for a given item. In OO small tank locos below £100 do ok, bigger items like the Grey Blue Pullman are probably struggling. If it was alone as a new announcement, then it would sell to those who fancy one and have nothing else more important to choose from right now.

 

It’s fair to say the 14 car set in N are the best sellers. It that’s not saying much to be honest as the orders for the APT, are not the best.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Hi everyone,

 

Just a quick note to let you know we are still a long way away on breaking even with this project, with the total figures so far still in double numbers i'm afraid.

 

This crowdfunding will still continue, but to make it viable at the moment  i'd need a large stockist to come in, offer them a trade price where the shortfall in money could cover the amount needed to break even. This by its very nature means offering at a price a third off at the minimum to be able to sell at the same price crowdfunders would pay, but i wouldn't have a say on what price they sold at so they could quite rightly by the law, undercut your price. This i am loathed to do, and hope that as the OO one goes into final design and tooling models start to appear, more N gauge modellers come out and order.

 

It's not over by a long way, but boy is it slow.

 

I'll keep you all posted as we go along.

cheers

Dave

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Well hopefully the arrival of the amazing Pendolinos from Revolution will add interest in N gauge West Coast modelling to the benefit of the apt-p project. 

With the argument that folk model what the see/remember the Pendo has more pull with rising passenger numbers compared to the nadir period of BR and the APT saga.

 

I hope a solution can be made that works .   The early bird fund price for Pendo very attractive and so good VFM I guess the standard of this model will be the comparison benchmark in many ways.

 

Robert   

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Well hopefully the arrival of the amazing Pendolinos from Revolution will add interest in N gauge West Coast modelling to the benefit of the apt-p project. 

With the argument that folk model what the see/remember the Pendo has more pull with rising passenger numbers compared to the nadir period of BR and the APT saga.

 

I hope a solution can be made that works .   The early bird fund price for Pendo very attractive and so good VFM I guess the standard of this model will be the comparison benchmark in many ways.

 

Robert   

 

I agree. Apparently the expressions of interest for the Revolution APT-E have seen a big uplift this week after the delivery of the Pendolinos so lets hope for a halo effect.

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  • 1 month later...

Is any progress being made with the numbers in the N gauge APT Dave? I know you have hinted they are very poor but with crowd funded models being delivered at a high quality recently has that had any impact?

 

Would it improve if you just did one offering for N gauge and removed all the different version options. Not sure if that would help or hinder really. Although I prefer a 14 car, I would take a 5 car over nothing.

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Is any progress being made with the numbers in the N gauge APT Dave? I know you have hinted they are very poor but with crowd funded models being delivered at a high quality recently has that had any impact?

 

Would it improve if you just did one offering for N gauge and removed all the different version options. Not sure if that would help or hinder really. Although I prefer a 14 car, I would take a 5 car over nothing.

Hi,

i've been thinking about this recently, and given the very poor pick up regarding orders, as it stands it will be a struggle to the the project going, but im leaving the crowdfunding open.....just in case.

 

However, i wonder if a cheaper stripped down version might be a flyer in one of 2 formats (black cab windows and yellow cab windows) with limited amount of extra coaches available for those that want a longer train?

 

thinking a 7 car, non tilt, non nose lifting single powered unit. separate coaches with printed numbers (id rather not do no numbers as that adds to the complications even if there was an available transfer sheet).

 

i'll leave that open to those interested to comment here if they want to?

cheers

dave

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I remain interested, so yes, depending on the price of such an option I'd still have potentially have one.

 

I'm not worried by a lot of 'features' that are really more gimicky. Tilt would be nice, as it was so prevalent on the prototype, but not a show-stopper. Certainly not fussed by interior lighting, lifting nose sections, sprung pantographs, myriad variants of running numbers etc. I'm not that worried about extensive interior detailing myself. Seats broadly coloured appropriately (ie just red and blue(?)) would be more than enough. Quite possibly in a minority of one there though!

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Hi Dave,

 

as this is completely out of my era, I've nowhere to run such a machine, but I fancied one to stick on the wall in a scenic display case with OHLE, etc, if you catch my train of thought; with the added possibility of it being an investment should times become hard in the future. 

 

That being the case, I've never been interested in tilt (even if I was going to run it on a layout). However, the big appeal to me was the 14 car option, so I'm not sure I'd maintain the order if the set was reduced in that respect and I'd have to consider backing out.

 

If it were a case of a baseline 5 car and we could add additional trailers and power vehicles to make the 14 set, that would be different. But i fit were 5-car or nothing, I'm afraid I'd probably take nothing.

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Yes, I'd not have a 5-car unless add-on coaches still meant a reasonable rake could be formed fairly cheaply - but surely that adds huge complexity for you, not least for things like packaging and shipping individual coaches?

 

For me a 5-car would be too 'trainsetty', but I'm also not fussed by a full 14, about 10 would do me!

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Hi,

i've been thinking about this recently, and given the very poor pick up regarding orders, as it stands it will ve a struggle to tet the project goung, but im leaving the crowdfunding open.....just in case.

 

However, i wonder if a cheaper stripped down version might be a flyer in one of 2 formats (black cab windows and yellow cab windows) with limited amount of extra coaches available for those that want a longer train?

 

thinking a 7 car, non tilt, non nose lifting single powered unit. separate coaches with printed numbers (id rather not do no numbers as that adds to the complications even if there was an available transfer sheet).

 

i'll leave that open to those interested to comment here if they want to?

cheers

dave

 

Thanks for the response.

 

Once we accept that the numbers are not there for the current offering we have I agree that a reduced spec and therefore hopefully price might be a way to breath life into it. I personally think £999 for the 14 car is a reasonable cost but it does scare folks off.

 

What about a single power unit 7 car set and then an option pack of the remaining 6 cars and power car. The makeup could be decided by more knowledgeable folks than I.

 

I would happily lose the tilt, lifting nose etc, the important thing for me are the mouldings and basic model. Even things like black vs yellow is an easy fix to repaint and renumber. The hard thing for most modellers is creating the basic model.

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Keep it simple:

 

Drop the tilt - I've not heard anyone say the Revolution Trains Pendolino is a bad model because it doesn't tilt.

Drop or simplify the lifting nose; Have it as a plug-in replacement section if you really think it's needed - certainly don't bother with any fancy mechanism.

 

Why not just produce a single model 8 cars long - i.e. the same as an HST:

DTS+TRBS+TBF+M+M+TBF+TRBS+DTS  (i.e. driving car, buffer, first/guard, power car x2)

 

Then, rather than offer TU, TF and TS and individual coaches, you can then offer them in an add-on pack containing one of each. People could then sign up to one or two add-on packs as required.

 

But probably more importantly - please deliver a working motorised model in N Gauge! The mermaids are very nice (olive green ones next please!) but I'm guessing quite a few will be wondering if any of the problems that affected Dapol N Gauge models have followed you to the new factories you're using (e.g. PCB faults resulting in me having to replace 2 HSTs, 2 class 86 and have you swap the chassis on my class 26).

 

 

Steven B.

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Keep it simple:

 

Drop the tilt - I've not heard anyone say the Revolution Trains Pendolino is a bad model because it doesn't tilt.

Drop or simplify the lifting nose; Have it as a plug-in replacement section if you really think it's needed - certainly don't bother with any fancy mechanism.

 

Why not just produce a single model 8 cars long - i.e. the same as an HST:

DTS+TRBS+TBF+M+M+TBF+TRBS+DTS  (i.e. driving car, buffer, first/guard, power car x2)

 

Then, rather than offer TU, TF and TS and individual coaches, you can then offer them in an add-on pack containing one of each. People could then sign up to one or two add-on packs as required.

 

But probably more importantly - please deliver a working motorised model in N Gauge! The mermaids are very nice (olive green ones next please!) but I'm guessing quite a few will be wondering if any of the problems that affected Dapol N Gauge models have followed you to the new factories you're using (e.g. PCB faults resulting in me having to replace 2 HSTs, 2 class 86 and have you swap the chassis on my class 26).

 

 

Steven B.

i think the problem with offering 4 pack extra coaches is quantity. for example, and totally selfishly i may add, i or DToS wont want to be sitting on stock of those for any short length of time, let alone long. so how many are made? are enough made to produce 2 for each full set of 8 units made?

thats a lot of dead stock, maybe only produce some of 1 pack of 4, again how many? its a lottery, and unless everyone can guarantee they will want one, either there will be customers who get them, or customers that miss out.

We would be damned if we did enough, and damned if we dont, even thiugh the latter leaves us with no dead stock.

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Keep it simple:

 

Drop the tilt - I've not heard anyone say the Revolution Trains Pendolino is a bad model because it doesn't tilt.

Drop or simplify the lifting nose; Have it as a plug-in replacement section if you really think it's needed - certainly don't bother with any fancy mechanism.

 

Why not just produce a single model 8 cars long - i.e. the same as an HST:

DTS+TRBS+TBF+M+M+TBF+TRBS+DTS  (i.e. driving car, buffer, first/guard, power car x2)

 

Then, rather than offer TU, TF and TS and individual coaches, you can then offer them in an add-on pack containing one of each. People could then sign up to one or two add-on packs as required.

 

But probably more importantly - please deliver a working motorised model in N Gauge! The mermaids are very nice (olive green ones next please!) but I'm guessing quite a few will be wondering if any of the problems that affected Dapol N Gauge models have followed you to the new factories you're using (e.g. PCB faults resulting in me having to replace 2 HSTs, 2 class 86 and have you swap the chassis on my class 26).

 

 

Steven B.

That would seem plausible.

 

Would it be better to substitute one of the Ms for a TS (for example), and put the second M in one of the additional packs? Might look a bit unbalanced having two Ms in an 8-car train..........

 

Baseline-DTS+TRSB+TF+M+TBF+TRSB+TS+DTS

 

Add-on Pack 1-M+TF+TS

 

Add-on Pack 2-TBF+TU+TU

 

Just as a for instance, of the top of my head

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i think the problem with offering 4 pack extra coaches is quantity. for example, and totally selfishly i may add, i or DToS wont want to be sitting on stock of those for any short length of time, let alone long. so how many are made? are enough made to produce 2 for each full set of 8 units made?

thats a lot of dead stock, maybe only produce some of 1 pack of 4, again how many? its a lottery, and unless everyone can guarantee they will want one, either there will be customers who get them, or customers that miss out.

We would be damned if we did enough, and damned if we dont, even thiugh the latter leaves us with no dead stock.

 

I don't think there's a suggestion that you hold stock, I think we just order them at the same time as the baseline train. So, me I wan't 14 cars so I order the whole lot. Someone else wants 11 cars so orders the baseline plus one of the packs, someone else only wants 8 cars so orders the baseline only.

 

That way you're still only building to order.

 

Or have I got that wrong?.....

 

I suppose, effectively, put like that you'd be offering three options, an 8-, an 11- and a 14-car train.

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Of course, all of this is based on the assumption that it is the price and the vast choice of options that is the reason for disapointing orders. 

 

It may of course be that there just isn't the interest in an N Gauge Apt-P............

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Of course, all of this is based on the assumption that it is the price and the vast choice of options that is the reason for disapointing orders. 

 

It may of course be that there just isn't the interest in an N Gauge Apt-P............

i like the thinking mate, sounds likeva possibility. however current sales of the whole choice arent even 100 units, so i think possibly its either there isnt a market for THE iconic West Coach train, or that the price point is too much and needs trimming.

 

i'm sure i'll be having a chat with Mike at DToS in the coming weeks about what to do with the proposed N gauge version.

 

cheers

Dave

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Of course, all of this is based on the assumption that it is the price and the vast choice of options that is the reason for disapointing orders. 

 

It may of course be that there just isn't the interest in an N Gauge Apt-P............

 

 

I was considering this as well.

 

You cannot help but compare to that other n gauge iconic west coast train, the Pendolino where they have 1000+ sets sold and delivered (or about to be). The cost was £350 with dcc sound fitted for a 9 unit at the beginning rising to £470 for an 11 unit dcc sound at the end of the process (the City of Birmingham model). I know that the early price was set at the original Kickstarter project around 3-4 years ago but even at the £470 price point they sold out in days.

 

Now they are selling for around £750 on eBay.

 

The Pendo is current and has been around for around 20 years allowing multiple units to run on one model railway; whereas unless you model a very specific period (1983-85 I believe); the APT is a rule one purchase and a big one at that. 

 

If the price was halved I think it might attract more buyers but it is always going to struggle to hit high numbers. Personally if the price was halved I would buy two as the money is not the biggest factor for me.

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I know it sounds like heresy coming from me  :D  but I'm sure that not having tilt on an N gauge model wouldn't be a deal breaker.

 

Having watched the Revolution Pendolinos running at speed on standard N gauge curves the fact that it doesn't tilt is almost un-noticeable. What you DO see is a swish looking train batting along at a fair old speed, and if someone's done the job properly and put a bit of super-elevation on the curves it looks as if it's tilting anyway.

 

Engineering a tilt system into a N gauge model is bound to be a) difficult and b) expensive so it's an obvious target to lower any costs.

 

Being pedantic, the P-Train's service life was from 1981 to 1985, but the first bit, in 1981, was VERY short, just days in fact, before the sensible decision made and it was withdrawn. It went back into service in mid-1982, but wasn't advertised as such.

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Hi,

i've been thinking about this recently, and given the very poor pick up regarding orders, as it stands it will be a struggle to the the project going, but im leaving the crowdfunding open.....just in case.

 

However, i wonder if a cheaper stripped down version might be a flyer in one of 2 formats (black cab windows and yellow cab windows) with limited amount of extra coaches available for those that want a longer train?

 

thinking a 7 car, non tilt, non nose lifting single powered unit. separate coaches with printed numbers (id rather not do no numbers as that adds to the complications even if there was an available transfer sheet).

 

i'll leave that open to those interested to comment here if they want to?

cheers

dave

 

Dave,

 

I am with you - I think I expressed my thought earlier that there are too many options - one reason I haven't placed my interest as I have no idea what to go for.

 

In N Gauge the 14-car set is going to be possible and impressive and perhaps a 7-car set also...  Maybe as you suggest two 7-car sets (one yellow and one black ended) with less functions e.g. the tilt. Additional coaches (+one power unit?) to expand to a full 14-car set?

 

I really would like this to happen as well but for me the choice is bewildering and for the likely limited market may mute orders.

 

Regards

Tony

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Hi Dave,

 

I echo the thoughts above and certainly with regards to price. The 11 car pendolino is a superb model and being priced at £470 for the City of Birmingham sets, surely the APT can be retailed for a similar price for a similar number of cars in the set. The orders should be flooding in for such an iconic train and in my opinion, its 100% definitely down to price as to why the orders are not being placed.

With regards to sets, I agree, maybe a 7 car and another, say 9 or 10 car, with add on sets to complete the rake to 14 cars for those who wish to have the full set. But keep it simple and don't offer too much choice in terms of set and add on pack options so the orders come in in strong numbers.

My final thoughts are that these models need to be coming in below £500 for the 10 car set (if this were to be one of the options), with the add on packs priced reasonably too. Tilt and all those gimmicks are not necessary so should keep production costs down. Offer light bars as an optional extra.

Bearing in mind I'm currently building a model of Euston station, I'd really love to have a couple of these snaking in through the station throat turnouts.

 

Best regards,

 

Jeremy

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