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N gauge Crowdfunded APT-P (Warley announcement)


DJM Dave
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The 11 car pendolino is a superb model and being priced at £470 for the City of Birmingham sets, surely the APT can be retailed for a similar price for a similar number of cars in the set.

Unfortunately I am not sure that is true. My understanding is the Rapido effectively sold the Pendolino at cost in return for ownership of the tooling, allowing them to produce further runs down the line. I am not sure if Dave can support the same business model.

 

Plus the prices of the Pendolino were set 3 years ago. You only have to look at the recent Farish catalogue to see how prices have risen in that time. If Dave could match the price of the Pendolino, I am sure he would (at that price I might even be tempted myself as I love the APT, even though I don't model the WCML). I am sure Dave has priced the models at what he believes he can realistically bring them to market for.

 

Having said that, I believe that leaving out tilt and a raising nose are sensible if it helps get the project over the line. Get the basics right and it will be a good model.

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That would seem plausible.

 

Would it be better to substitute one of the Ms for a TS (for example), and put the second M in one of the additional packs? Might look a bit unbalanced having two Ms in an 8-car train..........

 

Baseline-DTS+TRSB+TF+M+TBF+TRSB+TS+DTS

 

Add-on Pack 1-M+TF+TS

 

Add-on Pack 2-TBF+TU+TU

 

Just as a for instance, of the top of my head

 

A basic train has to have two DTS, two TBF and at least one M; The DTS and TBF are the only passenger vehicles in the APT that don't have articulated bogies at both ends. An APT must have two of each or it won't work - hence being included in my suggestion for a basic APT train pack. Like you I felt including the second M in the basic pack was overkill but didn't think DJM/DToS would want the overhead of stocking a second add-on pack and nobody is likely to want three M for one APT.

 

For those not aware (I wasn't until a few years ago), the APT is made up of the following vehicles:

DTS - driving trailer second; Front/rear vehicle in the train fitted with drivers cab. Second class seating; "Standard" bogie on one end, articulated at the other.

TBF - Trailer brake first; Guards compartment; Firstclass seating; "Standard" bogie on one end, articulated at the other.

TRSB - buffet/restaurant car; Articulated bogies both ends

TU - Trailer Unclassified - effectively the dining car to go with the TRSB; Articulated bogies both ends

TS - Trailer second - more second class accomodation; Articulated bogies both ends

TF - Trailer First- more firstclass accomodation; Articulated bogies both ends

M - power car; two bogies, pantograph, no driving cab or windows.

 

 

Steven B

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Unfortunately I am not sure that is true. My understanding is the Rapido effectively sold the Pendolino at cost in return for ownership of the tooling, allowing them to produce further runs down the line. I am not sure if Dave can support the same business model.Plus the prices of the Pendolino were set 3 years ago. You only have to look at the recent Farish catalogue to see how prices have risen in that time. If Dave could match the price of the Pendolino, I am sure he would (at that price I might even be tempted myself as I love the APT, even though I don't model the WCML). I am sure Dave has priced the models at what he believes he can realistically bring them to market for.Having said that, I believe that leaving out tilt and a raising nose are sensible if it helps get the project over the line. Get the basics right and it will be a good model.

 

The Pendolino was £335 when it was first launched and then £470 was this years price. So the increase has already been accounted for.

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If we are looking at options then the base pack coupld be the preserved 6 car set with one exta pack being the trailer cars of one set and a second pack would be the trailer cars but with the TRSB replaced with with a second motor car. one of each forming a 14 car train. You can go for the cheaper 'full' set with one motor by getteing 2 extra pack 1s

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Although I am in for 14 cars, if an alternative route is needed I would support a base 7 car set of DTS + TRSB + TBF + M +TBF + TRSB + DTS. with a pre-order option for 3 car add-ons of TU + TF + TS, and an unpowered M. A 4 axle M power car with traction tyres should be able to cope with a full 14 car set which has 16 trailer bogies - fewer than my 2 + 14 Eurostar set which has 2 motored and 18 trailer bogies, and manages 2% gradients and carefully laid 9 inch curves too, on my layout. I can certainly manage with basic interiors, no tilt, and no fancy nose set-up. Tinted glazing can conceal a lot.

Edited by mikeharvey22
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Echoing other posts here, but I could also do without all the bells and whistles, as long as externally all looks good. No tilt is fine as far as I'm concerned and I wouldn't even be too bothered about zero internal detail as long as the window tint is there-I suspect I may be in a minority on that last point, but just to see this amazing train on an n-gauge layout would be a dream come true! I would also not be concerned by not having light bars in coaches. I would also be happy with less choice-2 sets one black window one full yellow with a couple of length options? I have to confess to being a little bewildered and confused by the choice offered and did um and err a bit when I saw the prices. Despite only modelling in n gauge I have also gone for a OO version simply because this is such a beautiful and iconic train. I'm really hoping that some tweaks to what's on offer in n gauge can make this a reality.

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Just a thought, but why not offer it up as a half set, with the option of a DTS+TBF add on pack?

That way everyone who wants a 14 car set buys two half sets.

Then the shorter option is a half set plus the add on pack to make any combination up to 9 car.

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I would be happy with a seven car set. For me coach lighting and a lifting nose are a must. I'm not talking about a fancy nose mechanism but as long as I could 'drag' my APT I would be happy so maybe a way of having two plug in positions is possible?

Tilt is, for me, an expensive luxury and in fact would hinder my plan to have the set being dragged most of the time.

If a more basic spec'd but well detailed APT was available I would most likely have one with full yellow nose and one with black windows too.

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Would dragged with coach lighting also be unprototypical, if it's being dragged where's the power for the lighting?

 

I definitely don't want coach lighting, by which add-on light bars are the obvious option. Given they add a significant cost they have absolutely got to be an option IMO.

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ok, opening this out a bit, pick up on all wheels with through wiring, 1 decoder, 1 power car, light bar ready and wired to DCC?, possibly a lifting nose with NEM pocket depending on cost savings etc, non tilt, basic coloured internal finish, posable panto and DCC sound compatability?

 

How does this sound? early days but open to thoughts.

cheers

Dave

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That sounds good Dave. I didn't want to have to mess around too much to get vehicle lighting.

Oh I know full well that it wouldn't need to work when being dragged but the big clue is when I said most of the time and used the word could when referring to it being dragged. Are you available 24/7 to offer pointless advice or do I need to make an appointment?

Edited by Shropshire Lad
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Sounds good to me Dave.

ok, opening this out a bit, pick up on all wheels with through wiring, 1 decoder, 1 power car, light bar ready and wired to DCC?, possibly a lifting nose with NEM pocket depending on cost savings etc, non tilt, basic coloured internal finish, posable panto and DCC sound compatability?

How does this sound? early days but open to thoughts.
cheers
Dave

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ok, opening this out a bit, pick up on all wheels with through wiring, 1 decoder, 1 power car, light bar ready and wired to DCC?, possibly a lifting nose with NEM pocket depending on cost savings etc, non tilt, basic coloured internal finish, posable panto and DCC sound compatability?

 

How does this sound? early days but open to thoughts.

cheers

Dave

 

 

For me this would be just fine. I would want DCC sound upgradability and lights via optional lighting bars. With one power car 14 cars and through wiring I would think that traction tyres would be a requirement. Not personally bothered about the lifting/removable nose but I can see the benefit.

 

Critical will be the price as well as the simpler proposal to see if we can attract more folks. At the very least if you can do it for half the price then we will see if the market is there or not.

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That sounds good Dave. I didn't want to have to mess around too much to get vehicle lighting.

Oh I know full well that it wouldn't need to work when being dragged but the big clue is when I said most of the time and used the word could when referring to it being dragged. Are you available 24/7 to offer pointless advice or do I need to make an appointment?

How is "as long as I could drag it" including a time component to imply you'd operate it any other way? I merely observed you requested prototype fidelity and a feature which seemingly contradicted that. Get over yourself.

 

That does sound good Dave, for me that ticks the boxes. Through wiring to allow a single decoder in N would be a new one AFAIK, but would be good given we're talking 2 powered coaches (aren't we?) and a DTF/DTS with lights, avoiding 4 decoders in a set would be beneficial.

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How is "as long as I could drag it" including a time component to imply you'd operate it any other way? I merely observed you requested prototype fidelity and a feature which seemingly contradicted that. Get over yourself.

 

That does sound good Dave, for me that ticks the boxes. Through wiring to allow a single decoder in N would be a new one AFAIK, but would be good given we're talking 2 powered coaches (aren't we?) and a DTF/DTS with lights, avoiding 4 decoders in a set would be beneficial.

through wiring is easy, but i'm not sure a new price point should include 2 powered power cars to be fair.

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through wiring is easy, but i'm not sure a new price point should include 2 powered power cars to be fair.

 

As I mentioned on my comment, with through wiring you could have all driving wheels as non pickup traction tyres and one power car would be fine full of motor and weight with the second power car with space for speaker, chip and pickups.

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I realise that through wiring for pickup is easy enough, but for DCC connectivity...? Like I say, I'm not aware of it having been done on any UK prototype (no idea about continental stuff). Surely if it was easy we'd have seen it before?

 

I'm not conceptually fussed about one motor car or two, but obviously it needs to be able to shift 14 coaches at a reasonable pace.

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As I mentioned on my comment, with through wiring you could have all driving wheels as non pickup traction tyres and one power car would be fine full of motor and weight with the second power car with space for speaker, chip and pickups.

way ahead of you mate.

cheers

dave

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I realise that through wiring for pickup is easy enough, but for DCC connectivity...? Like I say, I'm not aware of it having been done on any UK prototype (no idea about continental stuff). Surely if it was easy we'd have seen it before?

 

I'm not conceptually fussed about one motor car or two, but obviously it needs to be able to shift 14 coaches at a reasonable pace.

its really about how many wires you can safely make a connecting block for without it becoming too fragile.

 

in a perfect world i'd love the N gauge one to have speakers in 3 places on the train. motor, and both driving trailers for horn etc.

still early days but ive seen an 8 pin connector that works nicely, although people might think thats fiddly enough.

 

lets get peoples concensus first, then look at 'tweeks' to the model.

 

mind you it's all moot if financially it wont fly, or if it will fly, we dont get enough sign ups.

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Yes, I realise, but surely the fact that no one's done it suggests that it's not "easy"...? I fear that 4 decoders would be a deal breaker (or 3 on a 7-car unit still isn't ideal), so unless you wanted to put the motor coaches in either/both the DTF/DTS I think something needs to be done. But yes, I accept that an 8-pin connector is likely bulky, fragile or both!

 

Personally I'd actually be happy with the DTF/DTS as the powered units, but then my worry is that they're physically quite small, and I don't fancy your chances at getting a chassis and mechanism in one that would happily move itself and 13 trailer coaches. Which brings us back to needing to offer two motorised coaches. That also compromises things with regards to lighting as you have two passenger coaches full of bulky chassis!

Edited by njee20
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