N gauge Crowdfunded APT-P (Warley announcement)

[njee20]

What do you mean? You’ll potentially compromise light bar fitting (by using the end coaches) or you’ll potentially increase the requirement for decoders (by using the centre coaches)?

[DJM Dave]

What do you mean? You’ll potentially compromise light bar fitting (by using the end coaches) or you’ll potentially increase the requirement for decoders (by using the centre coaches)?

who's that question to?

[PaulCheffus]

Hi

 

Put the motor(s) in the power car(s) with their associated decoders and just use a cheap decoder for the driving cars.

 

I think your asking for trouble trying to get the required number of wires through the whole train just to control the lights at either end. Picking up from all wheels on all coaches like the Revolution Pendolino, however would be a good idea.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[Roy L S]

You I think Dave.

 

The question is will you go fo either no saloon lights in end coaches to fit mech and 2 decoders in them or power in correct cars meaning saloon lights in driving vehicles but needing three decoders.

 

Regards

 

Roy

[njee20]

who's that question to?

You

 

I didn't understand what you meant by:

 

I'm set on the powered vehicle giving power and maximum weight to be honest. 

 

I mean obviously that's good, but it appeared in response to a question around where the locate the motor coaches and how many to have.

 

Put the motor(s) in the power car(s) with their associated decoders and just use a cheap decoder for the driving cars.

 

It is probably the obvious thing to do, but needing 4 decoders (potentially) is a bit of a pain, even using cheap function ones in the ends it's not trivial.

 

Edited for weird formatting!

Edited May 11, 2018 by njee20

[cutting42]

You

 

I didn't understand what you meant by:

 

 

I mean obviously that's good, but it appeared in response to a question around where the locate the motor coaches and how many to have.

 

 

It is probably the obvious thing to do, but needing 4 decoders (potentially) is a bit of a pain, even using cheap function ones in the ends it's not trivial.

 

Edited for weird formatting!

 

 

Where does 4 decoders come from? One for motor, one at each end for lights, where does the fourth go?

[scottystitch]

If two power cars, two decoders.....

[cutting42]

If two power cars, two decoders.....

 

I thought DJM had said only 1 power car

[njee20]

He said:

through wiring is easy, but i'm not sure a new price point should include 2 powered power cars to be fair.

Which is not definitive. It needs to be able to shift 14 coaches (inclusive) at a reasonable pace IMO. If that can be done with one then great. The Kato Eurostar manages it, but has terrible DCC provision, no coach lighting etc.

[Mr_Tilt]

The 00 Rapido APT-E only has one decoder for everything, and feeds the signals through the train all the way to the rear motor. 

 

OK, it's a lot larger so the plugs and sockets can be bigger but this N gauge APT-P won't have to handle the variable tilt angle. 

[njee20]

Yes it’s been done loads in OO, and never in N, hence my saying it’s likely not “easy”.

 

Then again, someone's got to be the first to do everything.

Edited May 11, 2018 by njee20

[cutting42]

He said:

 

Which is not definitive. It needs to be able to shift 14 coaches (inclusive) at a reasonable pace IMO. If that can be done with one then great. The Kato Eurostar manages it, but has terrible DCC provision, no coach lighting etc.

 

Maybe I read it as more definitive than you 

 

The Eurostar was the reference for a long time and I agree re dcc, mine was a battle and I have another one to do at some point.

 

The APT has fewer wheels than most and with enough weight, traction tyres and being right in the middle, one power car has a good chance. 

[njee20]

Which would be fine, no need to have two unnecessarily. As I said.

Edited May 11, 2018 by njee20

[mikeharvey22]

Like the revised format @DJM Dave . I am happy to go with the really simplest version if it can be made price attractive enough to get enough punters. If the power car is standalone, picking up its own current, but with enough tyres for optimum adhesion, that eliminates the need for through wiring, albeit at the expense of a decoders in the driving coaches. For lighting, the bogie pivot might make. a good two pole power route. Hobbytrain did this with a 5 car TEE unit long ago, even though they over-complicated it by using spring wires as the two pole connectors through the gangway.

Edited May 11, 2018 by mikeharvey22

[Karhedron]

I would think that separate decoders in the driving cars would be better. It simplifies the assembly which makes the sets cheaper for those who do not use DCC. People who want DCC can simply fit cheap decoders to handle the lighting. My hunch is that 2 cheap decoders would be cheaper than fitting sets up to 14 cars long with through wiring to use a single decoder.

[Vonzack]

For me

• No Tilt
• No fancy nose mechanism, just the ability to have it open or closed and a NEM coupler behind it for drags
• Motor in the designated power car or cars for a full set, nice and heavy
• Pick up for all vehicles (for lighting etc), pin points please, no wipers to create drag
• Separate decoders for the driving cars (no requirement for through connections, unless they can be done well and cheaply)
• Simple internal decoration, no 'tartan paint'
• Ability to fit lighting units, DJM designed or other after market versions maybe
• Weighted coaches to make sure they hold the rails when being propelled

Overall, I would want something that runs well and reliably. Use tried and tested configurations that as modellers we all know work, it de-risks it for everybody. Shared bogies have been done on other models and I'd suggest using something simple like a locating pin.

 

I would be interested in a 14 car set as a Rule 1 purchase only, however that can be put together (all in one or base model with add on packs). The price has to drop though, £1000 for the 14 car model is a massive premium to pay even with todays prices (Dapol's HST Pricing would put it around £430 for DCC Ready, Revolutions Pendolino is £470 with DCC Sound plus a few extra coaches, say £560). If this is crowdfunding, we're being asked to take a risk and I can't see an incentive if we are paying over the odds to start off with.

 

Would like to see this happen though, despite what is read into the above comments.

 

Thanks, Mark.

[cutting42]

For me

• No Tilt
• No fancy nose mechanism, just the ability to have it open or closed and a NEM coupler behind it for drags
• Motor in the designated power car or cars for a full set, nice and heavy
• Pick up for all vehicles (for lighting etc), pin points please, no wipers to create drag
• Separate decoders for the driving cars (no requirement for through connections, unless they can be done well and cheaply)
• Simple internal decoration, no 'tartan paint'
• Ability to fit lighting units, DJM designed or other after market versions maybe
• Weighted coaches to make sure they hold the rails when being propelled

Overall, I would want something that runs well and reliably. Use tried and tested configurations that as modellers we all know work, it de-risks it for everybody. Shared bogies have been done on other models and I'd suggest using something simple like a locating pin.

 

I would be interested in a 14 car set as a Rule 1 purchase only, however that can be put together (all in one or base model with add on packs). The price has to drop though, £1000 for the 14 car model is a massive premium to pay even with todays prices (Dapol's HST Pricing would put it around £430 for DCC Ready, Revolutions Pendolino is £470 with DCC Sound plus a few extra coaches, say £560). If this is crowdfunding, we're being asked to take a risk and I can't see an incentive if we are paying over the odds to start off with.

 

Would like to see this happen though, despite what is read into the above comments.

 

Thanks, Mark.

 

Spot on Mark, well summarised.

[DJM Dave]

Ok realism time here folks please.......

 

'paying over the odds to start with'

when compared with what for instance?

 

Already we see that for a 14 coach train with all the bells and whistles and with an extremely low MOQ (minimum order quantity) the costs are high.

 

Simply put, you have to shift xxx amount of product at xxx price to break even (break even includes, development, tooling, cad/cam desin, research, shipping to the docks, shipping on a ship, then shipping to a distribution centre, then shipping to you the customer.........then there is good old VAT. All this before a portion of wage is considered), and at the full fat price we couldnt attract 100 orders!

 

I'm not sure we will attract the xxx orders we need, even at a reduced price, but i think, once ive spoken to Michael, we will do it as a 'kill or cure' the N gauge project outright.

 

So, when compared to,other trains out there where they are amortised at well beyond what the APT will raise by numbers sold, are we to do?

 

Apart from a lovely looking and running model, what you would be getting is an exclusive club membership of how ever many are made, as rather like the oo one, i do not see second or more runs made past the initial one.

[njee20]

The problem is that by setting the bar incredibly high for price you immediately reduce your potential market size anyway. People will draw comparisons, and whilst amortisation of tooling and volume may be valid for the HST (for example) surely you have to consider the Pendolino a comparator, in magnitude if not exact numbers. I get 14 coaches is a lot of train, but £1000 is a lot of money!

 

If you're genuinely saying you need to sell the model for £1000 to break even then I think the project is dead in the water. If you can do a 'light' one for (say) half the price, you potentially sell twice as many. As long as you're not actually making a loss on each one, realising how fundamental that is. If the price is a function of the fact you want it to be exceptionally highly specced then, as you've said it would seem to make sense to explore the lower spec version - I've not seen a single person saying that it needs to be tilting or to have patterned seats.

 

I'll say it as well, but given what's happened with other N gauge projects this week you may find some reluctant backers at the moment. Timing is important, and I suspect you'd get more support if this were on the back of the release of a motorised product, even if an unrelated one. I know that's not practical and you're obviously running it concurrently with the OO gauge one, but they've got first hand experience of a motorised model from yourself.

[carderrail]

I feel there is actually nothing to compare this against - we are using the Revolution Pendolino as the nearest benchmark but this was started 2-3 years ago based on a much larger number of units/prototypes/liveries etc.

 

It would be interesting to see the price if the project was started now of an 11-car pendo based on a much smaller (100?) run - I suspect it would be way above the current price, Farish and Dapol N Gauge prices have jumped over 20% in the last few years so I expect a similar jump in price (if not more based on small volumes) as most of the reasoning for the rise is the increase in costs in China and Shipping etc.

 

The only way we will find out is establish a new baseline design/specification/livery/car numbers and refloat it, I feel that in the right format with a revised price it may run, will certainly ease my ordering!

 

Just my thoughts

 

Tony

Edited May 14, 2018 by carderrail

[njee20]

We’re talking about triple the original price of the Pendolino. You’re totally right, things have moved on, and I don’t think anyone is saying it should be the same price, but people will draw comparisons, particularly as Pendolinos are being delivered as we speak. It’s perhaps just another area where the timing isn’t right for this sadly.

 

Again, if we are talking 100 units then I’m just not sure it’s a viable prospect full stop.

[mikeharvey22]

I know Dave is not going to tell me the answer, but I wonder what the minimum production quantity needed was at the current listed prices. Not enough punters at the current level, so would doubling the numbers get it over the line? or 4 times the number at 60 % of the price?

 

Simplifying the design might help shave the tooling costs, but for a fully representative train there are 5 bodyshell tools and 5 different interior tools, four glazing tools plus 4/5 chassis variations, and 4/5 bogie types, etc. etc. depending whether there is an unpowered motor car. So for a small run - half the size of the 1000+ Pendolino - getting the price to an attractive enough level will be a major challenge.

 

This is one case where it would be helpful for Dave/Mick to give us a ballpark price/volume idea. That almost worked for the original Kickstarter Pendolino, and ultimately there were more takers for the Plan B Rapido-backed answer.

[njee20]

Yes, that’s what I was trying to get at with saying if it needs to be £1000 to break even then simplifying the interiors is just rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

 

If however the thought was that Dave could do the best model ever, all singing all dancing with a stocked N gauge buffet, and the price was designed to ensure a reasonable margin based on tiny volumes then I think a scaled back version has a chance.

 

I agree though that an indication would be useful. Is a 14-car going to go from £1000 to £950, or to £500?

[frobisher]

Quick question for Dave, but would reducing the number of variants in length nudge the numbers the right direction? My gut feel says the difference in the market size between N and 00 might not support as much variation.

 

Or, perhaps, he said bravely, taking the approach of merely tooling up the minimum length set a la Hornby (5 or possibly 7 car) in the first instance be the way forward? Not ideal by any means, but if that gets the numbers needed, a second crowd funding could be held to produce the addon packs (and a second run of sets in some or all of the proposed variations).

 

I suggest the 7 car packs so that at least one fully articulated vehicle is in the mix, with a possible eye to selling those for modification to the other types by modellers should things stall.

[DJM Dave]

hi mate,

not so sure as the highest orders were for 14 car sets.

cheers

dave