N gauge Crowdfunded APT-P (Warley announcement)

[adb968008]

hallo,

I am surprised this has not been posted yet

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSMSSdL2yeo

 

es grüßt

pc

Brilliant video, I reccomend to watch the last minute of the video, where he’s saying how good and smooth the train is, but instead of listening to him, listen to the sound of the crockery bouncing and if you watch his tea cup you can see it sloshing about !

[Karhedron]

I always regret never getting to ride on the APT. I was only 9 when it was withdrawn from service. I only ever saw it preserved at Crewe. I wonder what the chances are of it running again in preservation?

[adb968008]

I always regret never getting to ride on the APT. I was only 9 when it was withdrawn from service. I only ever saw it preserved at Crewe. I wonder what the chances are of it running again in preservation?

Under its own power, probably none.

It’s like Concorde, a full bespoke rebuild and wiring end to end using skills and technology that have been binned.

I did think however if a class 91 has its shape rebuilt as a power car and the other cars rewired and rebuilt as conventional (non tiliting) cars that could be an option for someone with lots of money spare.

 

But, all that’s left isn’t much.. 2 rather useless power cars, 2 First brakes (25 seats x2), 2 driving cars (52 seats x2) and 1 Buffet (28 seats).

That’s not a lot of seats for your money spent in which to earn revenue back, even if you converted a brake into disabled access.

 

So with 172 seats per tour, on an EMU that probably will not be permitted beyond 100mph might be a hard sell after the initial excitement has wore off, especially as historic diesel tours struggle to sell and don’t go beyond a handful each year and AC Railtours are all but dead.

 

DJ has already indicated probably correctly that even in model form, the APT will most likely be a one hit wonder, hence why they are proposing as they are, as in all reality the APT once modelled correctly in OO/N in its full form probably won’t see enough demand for a second run for quite some time. As a modeller I see the OO/N as a once in a generation model and suspect 10 years down the road this will be the holy grail model to have and those who missed out now campaigning to get enough demand together for a rerun, much like the never to materialise Hornby one. Indeed if it weren’t for the combination of China, Inflation and ability for low production runs and crowdfunding to cover the cost of it I doubt we’d be talking about an APT at all.

 

If it were re-run in the future, even let’s say a modest 250 models, of 14 coaches, at full RRP at today’s prices that’s £250,000, even let’s say 40% trade your looking at £150k of cash sitting in your garage awaiting a buyer of just 1 product item on your shelf, that was previously run for a crowdfunded market who already have one and are unlikely to buy 2... I suspect even the box shifters would be a bit nervous at that.

 

This model is a bold move, and i’d say anyone thinking about it would do well to get on board to avoid regret later, as I doubt this will come along again soon.

 

 

Maybe a suggestion for those planning this model: perhaps people buying in now could have their limited edition certificate number assigned now, so that if circumstance changes over the next two years they could exercise their right to sell that certificate number to someone else (by ebay or whatever) who could take their place. That would further de risk the project as it reduces the potential of an early adopter defaulting on a later payment and keep the production run integral with less chance of stock being held after release due to incomplete purchase payments being met.

Edited December 6, 2017 by adb968008

[royaloak]

hallo,

I am surprised this has not been posted yet

 

 

es grüßt

pc

Watching that video has reminded me how long the coaches are, for some reason I thought they were a lot shorter than they actually are, and I have ordered a 14 coach one, oops.

[DJM Dave]

Under its own power, probably none.

It’s like Concorde, a full bespoke rebuild and wiring end to end using skills and technology that have been binned.

I did think however if a class 91 has its shape rebuilt as a power car and the other cars rewired and rebuilt as conventional (non tiliting) cars that could be an option for someone with lots of money spare.

 

But, all that’s left isn’t much.. 2 rather useless power cars, 2 First brakes (25 seats x2), 2 driving cars (52 seats x2) and 1 Buffet (28 seats).

That’s not a lot of seats for your money spent in which to earn revenue back, even if you converted a brake into disabled access.

 

So with 172 seats per tour, on an EMU that probably will not be permitted beyond 100mph might be a hard sell after the initial excitement has wore off, especially as historic diesel tours struggle to sell and don’t go beyond a handful each year and AC Railtours are all but dead.

 

DJ has already indicated probably correctly that even in model form, the OO APT will most likely be a one hit wonder, hence why they are proposing as they are, as in all reality the APT once modelled correctly in OO in its full form probably won’t see enough demand for a second run for quite some time. As a modeller I see the OO as a once in a generation model and suspect 10 years down the road this will be the holy grail model to have and those who missed out now campaigning to get enough demand together for a rerun, much like the never to materialise Hornby one. Indeed if it weren’t for the combination of China, Inflation and ability for low production runs and crowdfunding to cover the cost of it I doubt we’d be talking about an APT at all.

 

If it were re-run in the future, even let’s say a modest 250 models, of 14 coaches, at full RRP at today’s prices that’s £250,000, even let’s say 40% trade your looking at £150k of cash sitting in your garage awaiting a buyer of just 1 product item on your shelf, that was previously run for a crowdfunded market who already have one and are unlikely to buy 2... I suspect even the box shifters would be a bit nervous at that.

 

This model is a bold move, and i’d say anyone thinking about it would do well to get on board to avoid regret later, as I doubt this will come along again soon.

 

 

Maybe a suggestion for those planning this model: perhaps people buying in now could have their limited edition certificate number assigned now, so that if circumstance changes over the next two years they could exercise their right to sell that certificate number to someone else (by ebay or whatever) who could take their place. That would further de risk the project as it reduces the potential of an early adopter defaulting on a later payment and keep the production run integral with less chance of stock being held after release due to incomplete purchase payments being met.

 

 

I like that idea of a limited edition certificate thats numbered, and without talking to Mick at DToS, i think it's a go'er.

We wont allocate any numbers yet, but the customers are on the spreadsheet in order of which they 'ordered' them, so working backwards from last to first and vice versa isn't a problem for this to happen. 

[GeoffAlan]

Looking at the N gauge price! 

 

Wow! Well beyond my wallet. I built a fair sized permanent home layout for that kind of money.

Edited December 6, 2017 by GeoffAlan

[Scottish-Exile]

I like that idea of a limited edition certificate thats numbered, and without talking to Mick at DToS, i think it's a go'er.

We wont allocate any numbers yet, but the customers are on the spreadsheet in order of which they 'ordered' them, so working backwards from last to first and vice versa isn't a problem for this to happen. 

 

Woop Woop. I was #1 for the OO 14 coach set when it went live on DToS   

[Mr_Tilt]

Under its own power, probably none.

It’s like Concorde, a full bespoke rebuild and wiring end to end using skills and technology that have been binned.

I did think however if a class 91 has its shape rebuilt as a power car and the other cars rewired and rebuilt as conventional (non tiliting) cars that could be an option for someone with lots of money spare.

 

Why shouldn't the vehicles tilt? The technology hasn't been lost, it's sitting under every Super Voyager out there.

 

Some of the vehicles at Crewe still do tilt, but not as they were designed to, and I'm in the process of putting together a 'boiler plate' control box so Brian Porter and his guys can test them properly. One Trailer Car tilt pack has a major problem in that water has leaked into the oil tank and that may have totalled the servo-valves. The Power Car tilt pack at Crewe is in very poor condition, but amazingly the one aboard 49006 at the ERM is in remarkably good condition. I'd love to get some 3-phase hooked up to it to see if it'd work. 

 

But it would need a LOT of money to do anything properly of course. 

[cornish trains jez]

An iconic train and great that it could be available for both N and 00 Gauge modellers.

I’ve placed my order for two 14 car sets in N Gauge. As I’m currently modelling Euston station in 2mm finescale, I’d love to be able to replicate scenes like this on the layout.

 

https://flic.kr/p/Q6hqzS

[Bomag]

Given the variety of many of the formations how did they shunt the stock and store the spare coaches?

[Mr_Tilt]

Given the variety of many of the formations how did they shunt the stock and store the spare coaches?

 

They didn't 'shunt' them as such because they were assembled in articulated sets, maximum of six trailer vehicles per set.

 

Each set could be shunted as there was a retractable shunting bar hidden inside the nose visor that could connect to an 08 or similar shunting loco, but once split off from its articulated partner any single vehicle couldn't be moved on its own as there wasn't anything to support the non-articulated end. Normally this only occurred in the trains shed at Shields Depot where they had lifting jacks and cranes to support the loose ends.

Edited December 7, 2017 by Mr_Tilt

[Shiney Sheff]

Just ordered a 14 car set inN gauge, lets hope it happens.  

[Bomag]

They didn't 'shunt' them as such because they were assembled in articulated sets, maximum of six trailer vehicles per set.

 

Each set could be shunted as there was a retractable shunting bar hidden inside the nose visor that could connect to an 08 or similar shunting loco, but once split off from its articulated partner any single vehicle couldn't be moved on its own as there wasn't anything to support the non-articulated end. Normally this only occurred in the trains shed at Shields Depot where they had lifting jacks and cranes to support the loose ends.

 

 I already got the first two points which is why I asked, all re-marshalling was done at Shield's Road - presumably it made a change from all those 303/311.

[John ks]

They didn't 'shunt' them as such because they were assembled in articulated sets, maximum of six trailer vehicles per set.

 

Each set could be shunted as there was a retractable shunting bar hidden inside the nose visor that could connect to an 08 or similar shunting loco, but once split off from its articulated partner any single vehicle couldn't be moved on its own as there wasn't anything to support the non-articulated end. Normally this only occurred in the trains shed at Shields Depot where they had lifting jacks and cranes to support the loose ends.

 

For those who haven't seen the nose of a P train in the up position

 

 

I talked to Kit on the last day of the Electric Rail Museum (Highlight of ERM, during of my holiday to GB)

 

Kit gave me contact details to contact Brian Porter to see if the Crewe Heritage Centre would be open while I was in England

 

Turns out it was open on the last day I was staying in York. Got a train York to London, dropped off my bags then the train London to Crewe

 

Found Brian at Crewe to thank him for returning my email

 

He took me on a guided tour of the P train  where I got this picture.

 

If I hadn't run into Kit at the ERM I may not have met Brian & never got this picture.

 

Both great Guys & my thanks to both of you.

 

John

[JDW]

They didn't 'shunt' them as such because they were assembled in articulated sets, maximum of six trailer vehicles per set.

 

Each set could be shunted as there was a retractable shunting bar hidden inside the nose visor that could connect to an 08 or similar shunting loco, but once split off from its articulated partner any single vehicle couldn't be moved on its own as there wasn't anything to support the non-articulated end. Normally this only occurred in the trains shed at Shields Depot where they had lifting jacks and cranes to support the loose ends.

 

In terms of re-marshalling, I always presumed something like that, but never knew where.  However, that leads to the question: If vehicles were removed from sets, how was it done and where were they kept?  I mean, if a centre coach was taken out, obviously it would have to be lifted out, were there spare accommodation bogies to sit them on?  Likewise, if you lift the carriage out, then you have 2 articulated bogies with a gap in between, how was one of the bogies moved out?  Was the rest of the set lifted and the bogie rolled out under it, then the set lowered and the other part with the remaining bogie pushed underneath? I assume its not something that would have happened much once the normal sets were in service, but must have happened a fair bit during testing.

In terms of re-marshalling, I always presumed something like that, but never knew where.  However, that leads to the question: If vehicles were removed from sets, how was it done and where were they kept?  I mean, if a centre coach was taken out, obviously it would have to be lifted out, were there spare accommodation bogies to sit them on?  Likewise, if you lift the carriage out, then you have 2 articulated bogies with a gap in between, how was one of the bogies moved out?  Was the rest of the set lifted and the bogie rolled out under it, then the set lowered and the other part with the remaining bogie pushed underneath? 

[frobisher]

My presumption would be that most of the short sets were around before all the vehicles were built for each set.

[Mr_Tilt]

For those who haven't seen the nose of a P train in the up position

 

 IMG_3157.JPG

 

I talked to Kit on the last day of the Electric Rail Museum (Highlight of ERM, during of my holiday to GB)

 

Kit gave me contact details to contact Brian Porter to see if the Crewe Heritage Centre would be open while I was in England

 

Turns out it was open on the last day I was staying in York. Got a train York to London, dropped off my bags then the train London to Crewe

 

Found Brian at Crewe to thank him for returning my email

 

He took me on a guided tour of the P train  where I got this picture.

 

If I hadn't run into Kit at the ERM I may not have met Brian & never got this picture.

 

Both great Guys & my thanks to both of you.

 

John

 

It was a pleasure chatting to you at the ERM John, you were by FAR the most interesting person I spoke to. 

 

And I'm glad Brian was around on your free day too, he's doing a great job up there.

 

 

In terms of re-marshalling, I always presumed something like that, but never knew where.  However, that leads to the question: If vehicles were removed from sets, how was it done and where were they kept?  I mean, if a centre coach was taken out, obviously it would have to be lifted out, were there spare accommodation bogies to sit them on?  Likewise, if you lift the carriage out, then you have 2 articulated bogies with a gap in between, how was one of the bogies moved out?  Was the rest of the set lifted and the bogie rolled out under it, then the set lowered and the other part with the remaining bogie pushed underneath? I assume its not something that would have happened much once the normal sets were in service, but must have happened a fair bit during testing.

In terms of re-marshalling, I always presumed something like that, but never knew where.  However, that leads to the question: If vehicles were removed from sets, how was it done and where were they kept?  I mean, if a centre coach was taken out, obviously it would have to be lifted out, were there spare accommodation bogies to sit them on?  Likewise, if you lift the carriage out, then you have 2 articulated bogies with a gap in between, how was one of the bogies moved out?  Was the rest of the set lifted and the bogie rolled out under it, then the set lowered and the other part with the remaining bogie pushed underneath? 

 

All the marshalling and switching vehicles about took place at Derby C&W or Shields simply because they were the only places that had the required lifting and moving equipment. There was a limited about of such work that could be done at the RTC but none of the covered roads there were long enough to take more than a 4 car set.

 

We had some handling dollies for the E-Train, and we still have them up at Shildon as it's almost impossible to move any of the vehicles singly without them, but I can't say I ever saw a design or hardware for such a dolly for P-Train, so I have to assume they used the side lifts and cranes to lift the bodies and then move the various bogies out from underneath.

 

The photo I posted of the RTC yard with Lab 8 on one side shows that it's being supported by the E-Train dummy power bogie plus some extension on the end of its decking. For sure it's not a pukka handling bogie! Here it is under PC2 before E-Train's first run, you can see what I mean about it being somewhat crude.....

 

Edited December 8, 2017 by Mr_Tilt

[steam-driven boy]

Hi,

I'm now in for the full 14 car set, hopefully not arriving too close to the full Turbo Train already signed up for - yep, that kind of train set... 

 

Regards, Gerry.

[DJM Dave]

I think you can pretty much guarantee that if you find a picture of an ‘uneven’ set with just 2 cars at the back of the power unit, then that’s 007, as I believe that was only 2 cars?

 

However reports in some of the books / magazines imply that sets were split from as delivered’ condition, but I can find no reference to individual coaches being swapped out within the half sets.

 

Mind you there’s a bigger problem looming..........’the case of the red + white stripes’!

 

I have no idea why but looking at the myriad of pictures online, and in published articles and books, the power cars red/white body side stripe is noticeably lower than the rest of the train, even when not tilting (before you ask,lol).

And at least 1 cars lines are ‘bowed’ too.

 

A picture on the web of the Rainhill cavalcade picture of the APT, being hauled by a 56, shows the former very clearly, even though the set cars line up perfectly (i.e. are not tilting)

 

Anyone know a reason for this, as if I do it like this on the models, it’s bound to cause angst.

 

Cheers

Dave

[Karhedron]

The APT was not the only train to have wonky lining.

 

 

I think this is a case where the model should be made "as the livery was intended" rather than "as it was actually (mis)applied". Just my opinion (others are available).

[Mr_Tilt]

I have no idea why but looking at the myriad of pictures online, and in published articles and books, the power cars red/white body side stripe is noticeably lower than the rest of the train, even when not tilting (before you ask,lol).

And at least 1 cars lines are ‘bowed’ too.

 

<snip>

 

Anyone know a reason for this, as if I do it like this on the models, it’s bound to cause angst.

 

 

I can take a guess, yes. The BP17 Power Car bogies have Flexicoil secondary suspension, even though you can't see the springs as they're hidden up inside the body, just like HSTs, and are therefore always at the same height above rail at zero tilt angle.

 

Both BT11 and BT12 Trailer Car bogies have secondary air springs and they're adjustable for ride height, depending on the setting of the ride height valves. But the valves have quite a large hysteresis and the bodies could be a quite different heights no matter how accurately the valves were set. 

[JDW]

It was a pleasure chatting to you at the ERM John, you were by FAR the most interesting person I spoke to. 

 

And I'm glad Brian was around on your free day too, he's doing a great job up there.

 

 

 

All the marshalling and switching vehicles about took place at Derby C&W or Shields simply because they were the only places that had the required lifting and moving equipment. There was a limited about of such work that could be done at the RTC but none of the covered roads there were long enough to take more than a 4 car set.

 

We had some handling dollies for the E-Train, and we still have them up at Shildon as it's almost impossible to move any of the vehicles singly without them, but I can't say I ever saw a design or hardware for such a dolly for P-Train, so I have to assume they used the side lifts and cranes to lift the bodies and then move the various bogies out from underneath.

 

The photo I posted of the RTC yard with Lab 8 on one side shows that it's being supported by the E-Train dummy power bogie plus some extension on the end of its decking. For sure it's not a pukka handling bogie! Here it is under PC2 before E-Train's first run, you can see what I mean about it being somewhat crude.....

 

 

 

 

Thank you for taking the time to answer and post another interesting picture, always a pleasure to read your informative and interesting posts Mr T!

[Mr_Tilt]

Thank you for taking the time to answer and post another interesting picture, always a pleasure to read your informative and interesting posts Mr T!

 

Having been right there during most of the APT happenings I think it's only right to share my somewhat specialised knowledge of the subject. Otherwise we'd be relying on the burblings of our ignorant media on a subject of which they know nothing.

 

Me, cynical? You bet I am..............

[JDW]

Having been right there during most of the APT happenings I think it's only right to share my somewhat specialised knowledge of the subject. Otherwise we'd be relying on the burblings of our ignorant media on a subject of which they know nothing.

 

Me, cynical? You bet I am..............

 

As an enthusiast I thank you and agree. 

As an occasional writer for a transport-related magazine, I take mock offence at the idea that the media doesn't know what it is talking about 

 

 

(Just before anyone says it:  Read it twice, I said "mock"!...)

[Mr_Tilt]

As an enthusiast I thank you and agree. 

As an occasional writer for a transport-related magazine, I take mock offence at the idea that the media doesn't know what it is talking about 

 

 

(Just before anyone says it:  Read it twice, I said "mock"!...)

 

Actually I meant the 'major print and television media', sorry.

 

The pukka transport magazines do get it right much of the time, but the mainstream people start off with false ideas fed to them by their predecessors and just continue with the falsehoods. EVEN when faced with the truth, as happened with the cursed 'One Show' items about APT earlier in the year. The presenter kept on about Pendelinos using 'bought in' APT technology, despite me telling him 3-4 times that it wasn't true. And yet they edited out my statements and the presenter finished off the item by saying the same old story.

 

It's VERY frustrating.