N gauge Crowdfunded APT-P (Warley announcement)

[mikeharvey22]

I can't really see the issue here with the 00 version getting support more quickly than N. Great for the 00 gauge guys. I would not want to see them lose out because not enough people come forward to make the N one viable. As I posted above in message #186 what more do we need to do to get the N numbers up?

[37081LochLong]

I can understand N modellers being upset that the OO one looks like it will get the go ahead first, especially when it was announced as a N project to start with, and I feel for Mick at DToS because this is his baby and modelling in N himself I'm sure he would be gutted if the N project never made it.

 

I was going to order an N gauge one in the hope that it would help support and push for a OO one, but when the OO was was announced shortly afterwards I decided to order two OO ones instead.

 

But, I don't think a viable OO one should be held back until a N one caught up or was made first!

[Budgie]

But, I don't think a viable OO one should be held back until a N one caught up or was made first!

Perhaps when N gauge modellers see what the OO models look like, more of them will sign up for the N gauge version.

[Ncarter2]

Perhaps when N gauge modellers see what the OO models look like, more of them will sign up for the N gauge version.

I do hope so, my Dad has a nice sized N layout which would nicely accommodate the full train. As he is modelling the west coast it would be a very good fit with his chosen era.

[Drew-1986]

I was going to order an N gauge one in the hope that it would help support and push for a OO one, but when the OO was was announced shortly afterwards I decided to order two OO ones instead.

I think this is the biggest set back to the N Gauge version

[loickebros]

Perhaps when N gauge modellers see what the OO models look like, more of them will sign up for the N gauge version.

I think it will be too late by then.

If N gauge modellers want this to go ahead then the only way forward is to order them.

[njee20]

I did say iconic train not random wagons and some are already being cross developed in OO as Mike and Ben have time.

 

Maybe someone does know of a train in N and not in OO I can’t think of one but the point is it is incredibly rare and this was an N gauge crowdfunded project that seems to be disappearing before our eyes whilst the OO model metaphorically steams into the sunset.

Eurostar? There’s the Hornby trainset version, but you can’t build even a half reasonable rake without a lot of cut and shut.

 

Not that I care, really don’t get people actually saying the OO one should wait, daft!

[letterspider]

I am reading this with a bit of interest and confusion and I don't want to instigate the wrath of the moderators but Dave makes it clear on page 1 that this is not a crowdfunder. He is being commissioned by DTOS. So - this isn't quite the same as a crowdfunder - where the customer is taking on the risk of the venture directly with the designer and supplier (Dave) and thus cutting out the 'middle' man.

But what we have here is DTOS taking no apparent financial risks at all on this project, not spending any money on shelf space but placing itself as the sole point of orders and sales on behalf of DJModels.

I don't see this retailer is commissioning the APT in the same way as Hattons - which has for example put its own money up front for the RHTT models.

Beyond releasing Dave from the distractions of running the order books I would like to know what 'value' DTOS is providing to this project - if they are not putting any money into it but just pushing prices up by ***%, then it is no wonder the N gauge project isn't getting off the ground?

Edited March 10, 2018 by letterspider

[Budgie]

Eurostar? There’s the Hornby trainset version, but you can’t build even a half reasonable rake without a lot of cut and shut.

You can get a full Eurostar train from Kato. It's in N, of course.

[cutting42]

Eurostar? There’s the Hornby trainset version, but you can’t build even a half reasonable rake without a lot of cut and shut.

 

Not that I care, really don’t get people actually saying the OO one should wait, daft!

 

 

But there is one isn't there! That's the point really.

 

I made the post due to the comment below which seemed to be attempting to make the suggestion that it was an more even spit with N getting product not made in OO as if the current APT situation was some kind of balancing out.

 

snip

I can imagine there are 00 modellers who sometimes feel the same when N gets something 00 doesn’t.

snip

 

Anyway, we are where we are, we seem to be riding a wave of crowdfunding with some long awaited N gauge models finally coming to the market; just looks like the APT-P has a longer road to travel and maybe not at all which would be a real shame.

[Ncarter2]

But there is one isn't there! That's the point really.

 

I made the post due to the comment below which seemed to be attempting to make the suggestion that it was an more even spit with N getting product not made in OO as if the current APT situation was some kind of balancing out.

 

 

Anyway, we are where we are, we seem to be riding a wave of crowdfunding with some long awaited N gauge models finally coming to the market; just looks like the APT-P has a longer road to travel and maybe not at all which would be a real shame.

I would like to add that in no way shape or form was I attempting what you seem to be assuming. I was mearly saying I am sure there are models out there that N has which 00 does not. The eurotunnel tri bo’s for instance.

I am more than happy to be proven wrong and if so would put my hands up and apologise. But please do not assume I have implied something that is not the case and does not read that way, as at no point have I said even split or words to that effect.

 

Regards.

[JSpencer]

Yes my heart sank when N gauge got both the original and rebuilt Merchant Navies before OO did.

 

Tri-Bo is one beast although the rest of the train only ever existed in kit form.

 

The Eurostar was in N long before OO and you can buy the complete train (and the KATO model is far superior to the OO offering).

[njee20]

You can get a full Eurostar train from Kato. It's in N, of course.

That was the point - come up with an example of an "iconic" train available in N but not 00, to support the evidence that there are occasions where the 00 gauge fraternity have been 'bettered' by those modelling N, to refute those spoil sports that want the 00 APT to wait until the N gauge one reaches the requisite threshold (and breathe). There is a very good N gauge Eurostar - you can compile a full prototypical rake in either of the two main liveries it carried on international services. You can't in 00.

Anyway, I'm not even sure who's saying what now. They're clearly two wholly separate projects, if one reaches the required order volume and t'other doesn't then so be it. To suggest anything else is pretty bizarre and either sour grapes, or a dreadful grasp of basic economics!

[JSpencer]

 

But what we have here is DTOS taking no apparent financial risks at all on this project, not spending any money on shelf space but placing itself as the sole point of orders and sales on behalf of DJModels.

I don't see this retailer is commissioning the APT in the same way as Hattons - which has for example put its own money up front for the RHTT models.

Beyond releasing Dave from the distractions of running the order books I would like to know what 'value' DTOS is providing to this project - if they are not putting any money into it but just pushing prices up by ***%, then it is no wonder the N gauge project isn't getting off the ground?

 

Managing this money and making sure it is released as each milestone is reached is their responsibility. If there are a 1000 models, we are looking at nearly 1 Million Pounds to manage over.

I guess they will also sign off on the design work and each EP stage.

 

They may have also covered costs of the feasibility project and some initial design work prior to going public.

 

They do have some risks like someone else announcing the same (how many duplicates have we seen?) or maintaining momentum to avoid price increases or - in extreme cases - dealing with issues if the supplier fails to supply (I'm not suggesting anything - just saying they have a big responsibility here towards the buyers).

[letterspider]

Okay

that makes sense

[Steven B]

OO gauge is more popular than N, so the larger APT will sell better.

 

I think there's also some lack of trust in Dave's ability to deliver a powered model in N. Yes he's got a track record with the models he produced whilst at Dapol and with several OO Gauge models. Production of any DJM or third-party commissioned models in the smaller gauge has been painfully slow and may put some people off opening their wallets.

 

 

Steven B.

[njee20]

Whilst it's well known that 00 is more popular than N I might have expected that the greater number of N gauge layouts which could comfortably house a 14-car train would go some way to offset that. Seemingly not the case in any meaningful fashion.

[alibuchan]

We don’t actually know the amount of models of each type sold.

 

In N it could be 75% of the pledged is for 14car trains, where as it may only be 15% for the full length unit and the shorter 7/9/10 car units amount for most of those sales.

 

Al

[letterspider]

Managing this money and making sure it is released as each milestone is reached is their responsibility. If there are a 1000 models, we are looking at nearly 1 Million Pounds to manage over.

I guess they will also sign off on the design work and each EP stage.

 

They may have also covered costs of the feasibility project and some initial design work prior to going public.

 

They do have some risks like someone else announcing the same (how many duplicates have we seen?) or maintaining momentum to avoid price increases or - in extreme cases - dealing with issues if the supplier fails to supply (I'm not suggesting anything - just saying they have a big responsibility here towards the buyers).

 

Why should the N gauge crowdfunder be the same as the OO gauge? If the demand is lower or insufficient then perhaps a different business model is needed ?

 

Why not issue a one type (eg black nose) limited edition 5 car set at £400 (not dissimilar to the APT-E) and then do prolonged runs of the coaches perhaps without numbers until either demand wanes or there is sufficient demand for a rerun of power cars and trailers / or there could be limited runs of variants.

[DJM Dave]

Why should the N gauge crowdfunder be the same as the OO gauge? If the demand is lower or insufficient then perhaps a different business model is needed ?

 

Why not issue a one type (eg black nose) limited edition 5 car set at £400 (not dissimilar to the APT-E) and then do prolonged runs of the coaches perhaps without numbers until either demand wanes or there is sufficient demand for a rerun of power cars and trailers / or there could be limited runs of variants.

If only the 5 car sets were good sellers mate.

Cheers

Dave

[alibuchan]

Why should the N gauge crowdfunder be the same as the OO gauge? If the demand is lower or insufficient then perhaps a different business model is needed ?

 

Why not issue a one type (eg black nose) limited edition 5 car set at £400 (not dissimilar to the APT-E) and then do prolonged runs of the coaches perhaps without numbers until either demand wanes or there is sufficient demand for a rerun of power cars and trailers / or there could be limited runs of variants.

 

 

I think that this is a very vaild point and Revolution said the same with the 321. The more options that we are given, then the more the money is spread around. Hence why Farish will do 3 models in different liveries and we just have to accept it.

 

There are 6 different sets available, with the differing of number of coaches and with or without black window surrounds. Possibly too many options were given too us. We are well known for being indecisive look how many different scales, Eras and Countries we model.

 

Im glad the 14 was available to us though.

 

Al

Edited March 14, 2018 by alibuchan

[njee20]

It also depends a bit on how much the sum total of orders matters versus velocity of individual combinations.

This is slightly different to the 321 insofar as they're complementary - the 5 car is simply a subset of the longer sets. If you need to sell x units then the mix is probably less significant. Whilst Revolution need to hit two thresholds - an individual one for each livery and a cumulative total for all of them.

 

Then again I guess Dave has to tool slightly different combinations of coaches on the longer ones, so hypothetically if the 5-car was overwhelmingly popular the project may reach critical mass whilst the 14 car variant didn't.

 

Or something.

[letterspider]

If only the 5 car sets were good sellers mate.

Cheers

Dave

Actually I think I meant to say 7 car formation due to the shared bogie arrangements of the cars between trailer and power car.

 

Anyway - sometimes you have to make the decision for the customer and just collapse the N gauge down to 7 car sets or nothing.

 

As it is we care going to get nothing anyway - so an excellent compromise is better than disappointment.

 

Either way fingers crossed Xx

[Mr_Tilt]

Actually I think I meant to say 7 car formation due to the shared bogie arrangements of the cars between trailer and power car.

 

 

 

The bogies aren't shared between the Power Cars and the Trailer Cars.

 

The Trailer Cars are all articulated, but the Power Cars are totally independent and run on twin two axle bogies.

[Stu from EGDL]

Actually I think I meant to say 7 car formation due to the shared bogie arrangements of the cars between trailer and power car.

 

Anyway - sometimes you have to make the decision for the customer and just collapse the N gauge down to 7 car sets or nothing.

 

As it is we care going to get nothing anyway - so an excellent compromise is better than disappointment.

 

Either way fingers crossed Xx

A seven car set will require 4 different toolings for bodies alone...let alone bogies...

1...Driving trailers (1 bogie articulated)

2...Intermediate coach (2 bogies articulated)

3...Trailer Brake coach...(1 bogie articulated)

4... Power car ..(0 articulated bogies)

This will need 3 different bogie designs.

 

For a 5 car set....you will need body tools 1, 3 & 4......and any intermedIate coaches for separate purchase will be tool 2. Then you have to decide to put one or two articulated bogies in with these extra coaches.

 

I have not included body tooling 5 for the buffet coach which do you put in the set as a 7 car or make it as an extra coach?

 

With all these body toolings required, a 5 or 7 car set is unachievable with all body types....so if a reduced formation becomes the only viable option in N Gauge, then not all the body types will get tooled.

 

Definitely a case of all or nothing with the crowdfunding. It is a brave attempt to get this model into production...and I have to respect the ambition in bringing it to market. I worry about the financial viability in N Gauge, which has a different financial dynamic to OO gauge and cannot reasonably be compared.

 

Good Luck to the project and its backers.

 

Later,

Stu from EGDL.