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Dapol Mark 1 coaches?


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9 hours ago, CME and Bottlewasher said:

Good find!


That's pretty grubby for passenger coaching stock, but it highlights the window recess (when zoomed in) quite well (as does the muck and detritus). Although it looks as though the door shuts/hinge area has had reinforcement modifications to it (but not the windows).

 

Out of interest any idea of the date of the photo? As that looks like one of the rarer, unmodified, windows on, obviously, blue/grey stock.

 

ATB,

 

CME


this photo was a Flickr find, and I believe it said it was early 80’s, I think 1980 was stated

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On 02/08/2021 at 03:38, 47606odin said:


Well, looking at this dirty blue grey version, whilst slightly deeper on the Dapol coach, doesn’t look too different 

 

AD2B1508-377F-4615-A332-5E09755867E1.jpeg.de0225812144a26d1cf0a9bcf671306f.jpeg


This photo was great to see - thanks for showing it. I don’t recall seeing the recesses so well photographed before. Makes me rethink about the model. 

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The reason the windows were queried is because very few of us have ever noticed these recesses because they don't really show in normal conditions.

 

I actually saw one on the Midhants yesterday with original windows and I couldnt see any indents at all.

 

So for me the models still look a bit odd in that area and, as it would have been a luxury puchase for me, I passed but it's very much a personal call.

Edited by Hal Nail
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18 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

I actually saw one on the Midhants yesterday with original windows and I couldnt see any indents at all.

 

Begs a couple of questions;

 

Aside from the examples shown above,

 

- were any MK1s built with curved glass?

 

- as an alternative to recesses, were there framing variations  to accomodate flat glass?

 

Les

 

 

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On 12/08/2021 at 06:57, Hal Nail said:

The reason the windows were queried is because very few of us have ever noticed these recesses because they don't really show in normal conditions.

 

I actually saw one on the Midhants yesterday with original windows and I couldnt see any indents at all.

 

So for me the models still look a bit odd in that area and, as it would have been a luxury puchase for me, I passed but it's very much a personal call.

They dont show up very much on the maroon ones i have.

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Watching all this talk of window recesses.  I would comment that in the Lionheart/Dapol Mk1 we have the best RTR coach there is.  (I could wish for better underframe and bogie detail, but I can do that myself.)  The only other contender, Heljan, has IIRC, come in for pretty serious criticism.  I have a pair of Heljan Gresleys and, despite their being almost the same price, the L/D coaches are far superior in terms of interior finish and on board lighting.  The only way to do better might be the MMP Mk1 kit but that is expensive and a lot of work.

 

John

 

Ooops, just realized there are the Daerstadt Mk1's.  I really can't comment on these as I have zero experience.  This might make my assertion above wrong.

 

Edited by brossard
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1 hour ago, brossard said:

I would comment that in the Lionheart/Dapol Mk1 we have the best RTR coach there is. 

 

Their B set is very good. I filled in the join where the ends meet the sides and opened a few more windows and apart from that wasn't a lot I could add to them. I am far more interested in the outside appearance than the level of largely unseen detail though. 

 

I don't think anyone is remotely suggesting the mk1s are bad models - aside from the level of finesse, for me they capture the proportions perfectly which the others (including Darstead) haven't, to varying degrees. The windows are a pretty key feature though so a bit of discussion around the impact, given there aren't shows to go to, isn't over the top. 

 

I'm waiting for them to do the later window design which I am confident will nudge these down to third best!  

 

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OK Hal, agree that the B set is excellent too.  I am boarding my friend's B set since I have the layout.  Seems to me that D/L have come up trumps with most of their RTR products.  There were missteps early on but things are good now.

 

Whichever coach is best is going to be subjective I think.

 

You do have to be careful when handling them since the windows come out very easily.

 

John

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On 13/08/2021 at 14:14, brossard said:

Watching all this talk of window recesses.  I would comment that in the Lionheart/Dapol Mk1 we have the best RTR coach there is.  (I could wish for better underframe and bogie detail, but I can do that myself.)  The only other contender, Heljan, has IIRC, come in for pretty serious criticism.  I have a pair of Heljan Gresleys and, despite their being almost the same price, the L/D coaches are far superior in terms of interior finish and on board lighting.  The only way to do better might be the MMP Mk1 kit but that is expensive and a lot of work.

 

John

 

Ooops, just realized there are the Daerstadt Mk1's.  I really can't comment on these as I have zero experience.  This might make my assertion above wrong.

 

Slightly lost me there John, but I think that I catch your drift. The D/LH coaches appear to have strengths and weaknesses as do the Darsteadt's, you pays yer money and makes yer choice, I guess.

 

MMP MK1's? Indeed the best, lots of work, to museum standards I'd say - but I'd argue that MMP kits are NOT expensive. The issue would be, these days, availability. Second best and easyish build? JLTRT, closely followed by Easy Builds. RTR is always going to be a compromise.

Edited by CME and Bottlewasher
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On 13/08/2021 at 16:31, Hal Nail said:

 

Their B set is very good. I filled in the join where the ends meet the sides and opened a few more windows and apart from that wasn't a lot I could add to them. I am far more interested in the outside appearance than the level of largely unseen detail though. 

 

I don't think anyone is remotely suggesting the mk1s are bad models - aside from the level of finesse, for me they capture the proportions perfectly which the others (including Darstead) haven't, to varying degrees. The windows are a pretty key feature though so a bit of discussion around the impact, given there aren't shows to go to, isn't over the top. 

 

I'm waiting for them to do the later window design which I am confident will nudge these down to third best!  

 

The windows on MK1 coaches are like the wheels on a car imho, they make or break it. In reality the Dapol MK1's with earlier window recesses, to the old MK1 eyeballs, in the flesh, look fine from most angles and viewing distances. If I'd been D/LH? I would have produced them all with later windows - after 2-3 years of use the prototypes were falling apart anyway, thus soon modified. I've even seen MDL versions with reinforcement to the doors and new window frames etc. By the time the 1980s were here, any remaining MK1's had patches and reinforcement to doors/hinges, bottoms of sides, windows etc.  

 

Waiting for the later versions (external/repair window frames) from D/LH? You could have a long wait. Might be worth it though?

 

 

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Well CME &B, I was probably referring to RTR coaches of which there are three to choose from.  Quite subjective as to which of the three is best.  I've seen comments about the Heljan and Daerstadt that seem pretty significant issues.  L/D seem to have the least of these.  All three have about the same price point so, as you say, you pays your money for the choice you make.  There are some who know every nook and cranny of these coaches, I suspect they will always be disappointed with RTR and probably kit as well.  For us mere mortals we are looking for a reasonable presence of Mk1s on our layout.

 

As for the MMP, for what you get undoubtedly good value (253.00) which is nearly 100.00 more than RTR and you still have to build it.  As I get older, times becomes more and more valuable so the choice of good RTR vs kit is easy.

 

If you can find it, Darren Sherwood did a good article on the MMP kit in the march 2009 issue of Model Rail.

 

John

Edited by brossard
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2 hours ago, brossard said:

Well CME &B, I was probably referring to RTR coaches of which there are three to choose from.  Quite subjective as to which of the three is best.  I've seen comments about the Heljan and Daerstadt that seem pretty significant issues.  L/D seem to have the least of these.  All three have about the same price point so, as you say, you pays your money for the choice you make.  There are some who know every nook and cranny of these coaches, I suspect they will always be disappointed with RTR and probably kit as well.  For us mere mortals we are looking for a reasonable presence of Mk1s on our layout.

 

As for the MMP, for what you get undoubtedly good value (253.00) which is nearly 100.00 more than RTR and you still have to build it.  As I get older, times becomes more and more valuable so the choice of good RTR vs kit is easy.

 

If you can find it, Darren Sherwood did a good article on the MMP kit in the march 2009 issue of Model Rail.

 

John

Hi John,

 

Thanks for the reply.

 

As I say the JLTRT kits are very good. RTR? Peter Cowling's MK1s are excellent too, I've seen some lovely EZB's running too and Westdale's. You pays yer money etc etc...

 

Perhaps the MMP MK1 has gone up in price since I last looked?, but, iirc, one could buy modules/packs and add as much detail as required. I've seen the Darren Sherwood-Jones article, again, iirc, he spent 50 hours building the exquisite bogies (great value for money in terms of hobby time/value). A matter of instant gratification (if the RTR model arrives in one piece) vs the longer, slower, but perhaps more sustained gratification, of building your own and seeing it running? Each to their own.

 

A self fulfilling prophecy is taking place though with kits and our wonderfully supportive cottage industry suppliers - that concerns me a little. Although things have picked up during the pandemic, so every cloud has a silver lining.

 

Atvb,

 

CME

 

 

Edited by CME and Bottlewasher
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Yes, JLTRT kits are quite good.  I built their Mk1 CCT which was very satisfying.  However, the kit was very sparse on underframe details.  I put a LOT of effort into the underframe detailing and that made me happy.  My CCT is probably better than the upcoming RTR model in many respects although lining may not be one of them.

 

768370177_P1010003(2).JPG.48ade0f8cd9657ffe1c4a4d19cab9af8.JPG

 

As for RTR Mk1s, I did expend quite a bit of effort with getting the ends to be coupled the way I wanted.  Of course I added people as well.  RTR doesn't have to be a simple matter of opening the box and away we go.  I like to think of RTR as a part built kit that I need to smarten up.

 

The underframe detail is another area that could benefit from dedicated effort by the owner/modeller.  I may well do that but, for now I have other things on the go.

 

I have no experience with the others you mention.

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

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1 hour ago, brossard said:

Yes, JLTRT kits are quite good.  I built their Mk1 CCT which was very satisfying.  However, the kit was very sparse on underframe details.  I put a LOT of effort into the underframe detailing and that made me happy.  My CCT is probably better than the upcoming RTR model in many respects although lining may not be one of them.

 

768370177_P1010003(2).JPG.48ade0f8cd9657ffe1c4a4d19cab9af8.JPG

 

As for RTR Mk1s, I did expend quite a bit of effort with getting the ends to be coupled the way I wanted.  Of course I added people as well.  RTR doesn't have to be a simple matter of opening the box and away we go.  I like to think of RTR as a part built kit that I need to smarten up.

 

The underframe detail is another area that could benefit from dedicated effort by the owner/modeller.  I may well do that but, for now I have other things on the go.

 

I have no experience with the others you mention.

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

Very nice John, more strength to your elbow!

 

I've two from Peter Cowling, cracking layout models, maybe they could do with a tad more brake rigging/rods when I getaroundtuit.

 

Each to their own and horses for courses etc.

 

Regards, in haste.

 

 

Edited by CME and Bottlewasher
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13 hours ago, CME and Bottlewasher said:

The D/LH coaches appear to have strengths and weaknesses as do the Darsteadt's, you pays yer money and makes yer choice, I guess.

Darstaeds have been freely available 2nd hand ever since Lionheart's came out which probably tells a story. They had first mover advantage and a big range but at the same sort of price will struggle now I suspect.

 

Bachmann brass are another that haven't been mentioned much. They are a good shape but were basic as supplied and are usually very expensive (c£250 for a painted one). I picked up a BG for £130 though which killed off my plans to do a Lionheart cut and shut.

Edited by Hal Nail
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2 hours ago, 37114 said:

I agree with what has been said by others re the later window frames, for my 1977 layout almost all would have the frames so am hoping Dapol do this variant in the next few years 

 

Wait! What! "...the next few years ..."!:huh:  This made me smile and grimace at the same time.  You must be of an age where the road of life seems infinite and a perfectly maintained dual carriageway.  All too soon the road narrows into a bumpy cobblestoned section and just gets worse as time goes on.

 

If you think that Dapol might make your coach in "the next few years", surely the thing to do is to find an alternative, like a suitable kit.

 

John

 

 

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54 minutes ago, brossard said:

 

Wait! What! "...the next few years ..."!:huh:  This made me smile and grimace at the same time.  You must be of an age where the road of life seems infinite and a perfectly maintained dual carriageway.  All too soon the road narrows into a bumpy cobblestoned section and just gets worse as time goes on.

 

If you think that Dapol might make your coach in "the next few years", surely the thing to do is to find an alternative, like a suitable kit.

 

John

 

 

Well they did say they would do the later window frames after producing the early ones first so I am also waiting.....

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46 minutes ago, deltic17 said:

Well they did say they would do the later window frames after producing the early ones first so I am also waiting.....

 

Well OK, but "a few years" is what got my attention.  That is too long to wait for a bucket list item I would think.

 

John

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1 hour ago, brossard said:

 

Wait! What! "...the next few years ..."!:huh:  This made me smile and grimace at the same time.  You must be of an age where the road of life seems infinite and a perfectly maintained dual carriageway.  All too soon the road narrows into a bumpy cobblestoned section and just gets worse as time goes on.

 

If you think that Dapol might make your coach in "the next few years", surely the thing to do is to find an alternative, like a suitable kit.

 

John

 

 

I have plenty of other things to be getting on with and while I would love to have a go at an MMP MK1, with the time I have free (limited) I would be unlikely to finish it before Dapol bring out the version with frames.

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14 minutes ago, 37114 said:

I have plenty of other things to be getting on with and while I would love to have a go at an MMP MK1, with the time I have free (limited) I would be unlikely to finish it before Dapol bring out the version with frames.

 

I agree with you there, the number of jobs needing doing is seemingly endless.  Yes, the MMP kit does look tempting, as do the Kemilway Gresley kits but time is too precious so I have gone the RTR route.  I have found that one sure way to get a piece of RTR produced is to start the kit.  :ireful:

 

John

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On 24/08/2021 at 06:53, Hal Nail said:

Darstaeds have been freely available 2nd hand ever since Lionheart's came out which probably tells a story. They had first mover advantage and a big range but at the same sort of price will struggle now I suspect.

 

Bachmann brass are another that haven't been mentioned much. They are a good shape but were basic as supplied and are usually very expensive (c£250 for a painted one). I picked up a BG for £130 though which killed off my plans to do a Lionheart cut and shut.

Good points well made, I've noted similar, Darsteadt are a great company but made mistakes with wheel sizing and bogie ride heights. Richard is the saving grace at Dapol re MK1's. I do fear that the Dapol/LH MK1's may be fragile - time will tell. 

 

The BB range? Not bad, but pricey, unless a bargain can be had, Hurst overlays on battery boxes and EZB window frames and nice coaches can be had.

 

John raises a good point - after a certain age, in my case and that of my partner, having had SARS2 for three months followed by 'Acute Long Covid Syndrome' for 16 months? Life takes on a different slant. 

 

My MK1's? A mix of RTR, kit bashed and kit built (I've nearly got all I need in NPCS). I like coaches, especially MK1's and MK3's but they're hard work to make. Nice to see home built models running though, very satisfying.

 

 

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On 12/08/2021 at 06:57, Hal Nail said:

I actually saw one on the Midhants yesterday with original windows

Was back today so took a photo of the TSO. Interesting it has had the extra strips added either side of the doors and commonwealth bogies but retained it's original windows (presumably when in blue grey too)

 

20210912_160627.jpg.998a425c084273677616d6c214b4f554.jpg

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On 12/09/2021 at 21:41, Hal Nail said:

Was back today so took a photo of the TSO. Interesting it has had the extra strips added either side of the doors and commonwealth bogies but retained it's original windows (presumably when in blue grey too)

 

20210912_160627.jpg.998a425c084273677616d6c214b4f554.jpg

That's an oddball! Good find.

 

From what I can tell the Dapol/LH MK1's all have moulded on end steps, shame they weren't separate add on's as fairly early on end steps started to be removed to varying degrees. Unless of course someone knows otherwise in both prototype and model (Dapol) form?

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