Current Models Available in the Market Place today

[The Black Hat]

I think a 170 has the most flexibility. 158 would be good but with the Bachmann variant on the way (one day) it doesn't make sense.

 

All the loco types mention have to my mind good enough versions already available. The 66 for example, I already have a good few Bachmann models which I don't want to obsolete.

 

Have to admit, for all the units, class 170 is now looking like it needs a complete retool. Lots of liveries, chance to get the 171/172 done too and again a future on the network for some time yet.

 

Would be good to see this unit done to standards comparable to the Realtrack 156.

[Flying Pig]

Class 55 for me too; I'd even buy one which I can't say for any other 4mm diesels.

 

Do you want the one with the WIPAC Lights?

The man said "accurate representation" not "travesty".

[YesTor]

I would put a firm vote in the 66 camp, however the ESU model ticks the majority of the above required boxes and therefore probably rules it out as viable venture. Just needs someone to commission it over here I imagine !

 

Hmmm, the ESU model is HO gauge for starters, so hardly a contender really.

 

 

Echoing a lot of what Yes Tor has said about class 66.

 

It really stands out as the one to be made - that or the Deltic or 20. But I think the 66 does beat its oppositon. The problem would be how much a new 66 would cost to be delivered.

 

I have no doubt that you would make a stunning 66 model but question just how many people might go for it given that there is a fair model of the 66 already available, prices for models are rising. Unlike the 66, the Dapol 68 had no prior model of this new class which I think partly explains why it was so popular.

 

Of course I am not in the manufacturer's position, but it is interesting to compare Bachmann's 66 and Dapol's 68, both with a RRP of £155.00 - one a top-notch, detailed current spec model, the other a tired and outdated compromise. I guess if Realtrack can deliver at somewhere around the same RRP, although maybe they are confident they can sell the model even with a higher RRP?  And let's be honest, why not, after all the Realtrack 156 seems to be doing pretty well despite the retail price of £200 (or £300 for a sound fitted model) of a two-car unit.  And fair play to Realtrack, it's a great model with great spec with a lot of work involved to get it that way, so I think the price is justified.

 

I know I have rather a lot of class 66 from Bachmann and am overall happy with the product that they offer. Would the difference be that great between the two models that it forces the sale of the old and upgrading to a Realtrack 66, or would this be easier with something that doesnt have things like lights or all the details like a 20 or 55.

 

"Would the difference be that great?"  Hmmm, well I guess that's down to the expertise of Charlie and his crew to impress with the goods.  Still, looking at their track record and the 156 clearly blew just about every other RTR multiple unit out of the water single-handed, so I see no reason why not.  And anyway, they are specifically asking for suggestions of a replacement model, so I guess they are already savvy of the risks involved. 

 

Fair comment as to whether everyone will want to fork out extra cash for potential replacements, however you could say that about any model.  Again, I cannot speak for everyone, but I personally would ditch all of my Bachmann 66s tomorrow if a top-notch model were to come along - I have already sold some of examples that were untouched/unmodified, as I really don't have the patience to put all of the things right with them that I find annoying.  And I refuse to buy anymore and certainly at their current price, especially when there are far superior models all fighting for my hard-earned funds.

 

Again, hypothetically speaking, would I pay more for an all-singing 66?  Answer, yes - even if it meant selling off my 20 or so Bachmann examples and only having 10 top-notch models.  Quantity is nice, but quality wins hands down everytime.

Edited November 28, 2017 by YesTor

[Allegheny1600]

Another vote here for a high specification class 44/45/46 'Peak'.

How high a spec?

Take a good long look and have a play with an ESU locomotive (a 232 'Ludmilla' for example) and equal that!

Specifically, the excellent sound capabilities, the metal body (for extra weight), and the sparks from the brakes as it applies them and the flange squeal as it detects that it is traversing a curve.

I personally feel that smoke is a messy gimmick and completely unrealistic.

It can also be a maintenance nightmare for the manufacturer as my mate, who has several of these models, has had to send a few back when the oil has spilled from its reservoir and damaged the circuit boards inside.

Also, any 4mm scale diesel should able to be supplied with a choice of wheelsets a la how Sutton Loco Works models do (00, EM or P4!).

Cheers,

John.

[AMJ]

How feasible would it be to design a chassis for a 350hp 0-6-0DE that could take the different body variations of the classes 08/09/10/11/12 & (13?). Obviously the wheels would need to be changed to suit for the one with Boxpox spokes.

 

There are a few locomotives as mentioned by others that have not been made in ready to run such as the early and later designed Hudswell Clarke 0-6-0DM D2500-9 & 2510-9 which could give some industrial as well as BR liveries.

 

Similarly the Yorkshire Engine 0-4-0DH 02 could easily find homes on small and large layouts, this used to be available as a kit from DJH.

 

Sorry Charlie for the many ideas.

[Neil]

Why rehash rtr models already in existence when there are so many 'virgin' possibilities out there?  The Ruston 88DS can appear in a variety of legitimate BR liveries, it's baby brother the 48DS is damn cute and comes with the option of early or late cabs, the North British 0-4-0 goes a step further with early or late pattern bodies and even has an outside frame variant, the list goes on and on. Big possibilities in the world of small diesels.

[cal.n]

I think a brand new 37 would be a reasonably safe bet, given the popularity of the loco and it's spread across eras, I think there would be a big enough market for a 'super' 37.

 

If I wanted to upgrade a Bachann 37 to standards I was happy with, I would spend £130 on the loco, £120 for a sound chip, £25 for an EM2, £35 for a Wipac nose (with lights), £5 for etched steps, £11.50 for Etched window surrounds and glazing, £5 for LEDs for additional lighting and £7.50 for an etched fan.

 

And Hypothetically + £50 for a fan driven smoke unit?

 

That makes £390 for a sound fitted loco so if you can make it any cheaper than that, I think there is a market. I assume a model this advanced will just come DCC fitted and not have an option for DC power, which would save space needed for a plug and would make manufacturing easier and cheaper. 

 

Anyone still using DC wouldn't want to pay a premium for technology they couldn't use and they will be happy with the Bachmann offering. 

[frobisher]

Class 06, unless I've missed an announcement from Heljan?

[Kelly]

There's not really much which in my opinion would be viable for new tooling.

 

Loco wise I think a lot has been covered in some form of high end detail, but ther3 are still a few classes yet to be modelled, at all. Class 41 for example.

 

DMU wise the 170, 153/155,220/221 & 158 would tick boxes for a revamp, then other new classes yet to be modelled e.g. 171,172, 222, 180

 

Class 41 as in D600s? Kernow have/are doing one with it releasing very soon. The 170 could do with updating, and doing the other Turbo and Electro star variets with similar features to some extent.

 

153/155 would seem like a logical progression from the 156 in some respects. Arnt Bachmann doing a retooled 158 soon though?

A class 20 with working lights.

 

Or something newer that no-one built before: a class 180 or 185 would be very nice.

 

With Bachmann doing the 20/3 there is the chance they're working in the capability to do earlier ones from the same tooling perhaps?

 

I think they're fine personally but the Heljan 33's were widely criticised when they were released, and a manufacturer did propose to make a new one recently IIRC. If you're ever thinking of something AC, a retooled 86 would go down well I think.

 

 

The original 33 was retooled iirc and rereleased, as well as doing the 33/1 and 33/2, both decent models. But always room for improvement, but not one I suspect worth touching with them being released not that long ago.

 

The 86 is in the hands of Hornby most likely as it is possible if the 87 is well recieved enough retooling of the 86 (or new tooling) would follow on from it.

[Mike Storey]

When SLW was going to produce the ultimate Class 33, I placed an order for 4 of them. Then they fell out with Heljan.

 

If you can replicate what they have done with their Class 24, in a Class 33, plus with exhaust fumes, I would still buy four of them, even if it cost close to £250.

 

But it may be that you need a larger body to fit EM2 plus sugar cube, plus a fan driven smoke unit. In which case the Class 47 is the no-brainer. There is not one post 1960-ish layout that could not justify at least one, including mine. The Class 08 is the only other diesel that comes close and I would guess that is not technically feasible. Anything else narrows your market for a first time venture, and raises your price presumably.

 

Otherwise, just use your designs for the 2 HAP kit, to turn out an RTR PDQ, with active sound you already have, a scattering of half-open droplights, plus inbuilt lighting, sparks effect and changeable marker headcode and tail-light marker by direction. You may not make a huge profit but you would make several old men (and I think one or two of the other variety) very happy......

[Kelly]

 

Otherwise, just use your designs for the 2 HAP kit, to turn out an RTR PDQ, with active sound you already have, a scattering of half-open droplights, plus inbuilt lighting, sparks effect and changeable marker headcode and tail-light marker by direction. You may not make a huge profit but you would make several old men (and I think one or two of the other variety) very happy......

 

With Bachmann having announced one I very much doubt anyone else will touch a 2HAP.

[Mike Storey]

With Bachmann having announced one I very much doubt anyone else will touch a 2HAP.

 

That's what I thought, about two years ago when they announced their intention and put it into their 2016 catalogue, showing a Q1 2017 delivery, and no mention of them at Warley this year whatsoever. Hence "PDQ"...... I reckon it will be two more years before we see anything from Bachmann, if ever.

 

I had presumed that Bachmann had very little to do in order to produce one, given the extant 2 EPB for one coach, and the Thumper for the other. Which made a lot of sense in that Bachmann could easily knock a 2 HAP off with little extra effort. But in another thread, a few, who appear to have better knowledge than me, strongly suggested that there would actually be quite a lot of extra work to do this, and probably at least one new body tooling, if not both, due to the new chassis needed. This may explain why it has not rolled off the production line at the speed many of us had predicted. And that is why I suggest the door is wide open for anyone faster to market, and certainly with a superior product (in terms  of functionality at least).

 

Having successfully built one of Charlie's 2 HAP kits several years ago, using a Replica Railways low profile motorised chassis, and not successfully building one before that, trying to use a "Spud", due to my severely lacking skills, I know that the shape is just right, the Replica chassis works perfectly, and that the extra work, for an RTR, IS minimal, bar the bells and whistles proposed.

[srihaggis]

Class 41 as in D600s? Kernow have/are doing one with it releasing very soon. The 170 could do with updating, and doing the other Turbo and Electro star variets with similar features to some extent.

 

153/155 would seem like a logical progression from the 156 in some respects. Arnt Bachmann doing a retooled 158 soon though?

 

Class 41 as in HSDT, yes Locomotion were doing it but very much doubt they will now.

The 170 would be an  ideal piece to retool, you can't even buy bachmanns example in DCC Ready format yet.

Agree with the 153/155 comment; the bogies are the same as 156 bogies anyway so that part is tooled up ready. Hornbys 153 "Super Detail" 153 really doesn't look right to me from the front, and the bogie mounted plough could have been done better.

Bachmann have been talking about a retooled 158 for years. How many years I can't remember, got to be about 8 or 9 surely.

[BigAndy]

Makes me smile at all these eclectic ideas popping forth. Who'd be a manufacturer trying to keep that lot happy?!

 

Personally Charlie, I think you should forget about Locos, as you have proven over the years that your profound knowledge lies in DMU's.

 

If you could produce an all singing, all dancing Bog Unit then I think you would be on to a winner. Bachmann famously snatched defeat out of the jaws of victory with their 101, so if you brought out a high spec, 3 car 101 to the same standard as the 143 and the 156 - along with somehow coming up with a quality dynamic exhaust effect, then you would be away lad.

 

It's the exhaust generation that would be the problem. Smoke does not scale down, we all know that, so a new approach would have to be looked at. Ever thought of looking at how Musical theatre Hazers work? Maybe something along those lines........but getting that technology into something so small would be a massive problem.....unless you had a reservoir under the floor, down the centre, between the underfloor detail. It would also need to be something that would not harm the atmosphere in an exhibition hall.

You should have seen the crap on the rails of the layout at the NEC, with all those layouts with smoke units and stuff billowing away.

 

For me, a 120, a 104 and a top end 107 would be Nirvana.

 

Happy thinking pal.

 

cheers

 

Andy

[DRS Crewe On A Mission]

I agree and support anyone who has said a newly tooled Class 66. 

 

Ok so the Bachmann model isn't outdated I wouldn't say but their could be a wealth of improvements made. Firstly the DCC lighting could be upgraded to feature independently controlled cab lights in both cabs, directional lighting, marker lights. The second upgrade has got to be detail. I bought an old Class 66 model from a few years ago last year and on a quick look their is a clear lack of attention to detail. It was good for the time probably produced between 2006-2008 but now over a decade on surely more attention to detail could be made. It would be nice to have a DCC smoke system on some Class 66s. Many a times I have seen them leaving Leeds Midland Road and they always churn out a lot of smoke which would be nice to replicate. Also the bogies on the Bachmann 66s are not brilliant and several people seem to be having issues with them so that's another improvement that could be made. 

 

Furthermore if I'm been really honest the liveries on the recent releases and upcoming releases on the Bachmann 66s are really good and well replicated but the price of Limited Edition 66s by Bachmann is too expensive. 136, 614 and 727 have been announced for release next year but they are quite expensive and for people like myself who model with/collect several 66s it's improssibly to buy them all. 136 with the London to China stickers is £185! I would love this model but this price is extortinate for a 66 Limited Edition or not. 

 

Whilst I don't want to turn this comment into a moan about price increases it does contribute to the main point that I am making. A newly tooled 66 could be produced and sold for far less than £170-£185 for Limited Edition models. I would happily pay £130-£140 for a newly tooled 66 but I think the current Bachmann prices for the Limited Edition 66s are just unaffordable. 

 

I wanted to buy 136, 614, 709 and 727 but that would cost £695 for four 66s. It's just too much for a model that could be reproduced by another manufacturer with a wealth of improvements and sold for less money. 

 

There are several liveries that Bachmann haven't yet produced on the 66s. I would be more than willing to buy newly tooled 66s, for less than the Bachmann Limited Editions with improvements. I don't begrudge buying locos but even I think that £185 for a Class 66 as a Limited Edition by Bachmann is too much and simply unaffordable, especially when several of the Limited Editions are been released at the same time. 

 

I would also support newly tooled 37s, 57s and 150s. Several popular modern image 37s could be produced with new noses, wipac lighting, top headlights, cab lights etc. The same with the 57s. Several 57/0s in DRS liveries could be produced with the correct fronts/noses. I certainly believe that Realtrack could produce amazing 150s. Judging by the level of detailing on the 143s, 144s and 156s their could be massive improvements to the 150s made when compared to the Bachmann models. 

 

Edit: I do not wish this comment to be took in a negative way by Bachmann or retailers that are producing and selling these 66s. Bachmann produce some fantastic models and are my favourite ready to run manufacturer personally. However I just simply think that the prices of 66s especially the Limited Edition models is just really expensive. I have nothing against Bachmann or any retailers. 

Edited November 29, 2017 by DRS Crewe On A Mission

[Revolution Mike]

Whilst I don't want to turn this comment into a moan about price increases it does contribute to the main point that I am making. A newly tooled 66 could be produced and sold for far less than £170-£185 for Limited Edition models. I would happily pay £130-£140 for a newly tooled 66 but I think the current Bachmann prices for the Limited Edition 66s are just unaffordable. 

 

It's just too much for a model that could be reproduced by another manufacturer with a wealth of improvements and sold for less money. 

 

That in a nutshell is the problem - why would a much higher specification and quality model be available for less?

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

 An aspect that has not been mentioned yet, is that a number of existing twin bogie models have visible compromises forced on the manufacturer, by the incubus of the second radius curve requirement. The choice of how to compromise varies between manufacturers, as is well known.

 

I favour Bachmann's usual choice, correctly scaled exterior components, but raise the mechansm and thus body above the bogies. This is my preference because some zero cost work to lower the mechanism relative to the bogies immediately produces a much better model. Once done it restricts longer models to minimum radii in the 30 - 36" range in OO.

 

An improvement going begging there: in whatever design of mechanism is chosen, if the model has wheel tops inside body work and these would foul on second radius if the componenst are correctly scaled, make provision for ride height adjustment with spacing washers or some similar means, so that the owner can adjust to suit the layout minimum radius.

[DelticBlade]

Another vote for a Deltic.

[Southernman46]

How about turning one of the existing DC Kits - the Hasting DEMU in to a RTR model ??

 

It would be popular and back in the day they were see as far as Carlisle (The Long Thin Drag tour), regularly turned up at Spalding on specials to the bulb fields and often on the Brighton Main line during Sunday diversion via Redhill ............................

 

and the 4-SUB or SR design 4-EPB have to be relatively low hanging fruit

Edited November 29, 2017 by Southernman46

[charliepetty]

 

How about turning one of the existing DC Kits - the Hasting DEMU in to a RTR model ??

 

It would be popular and back in the day they were see as far as Carlisle (The Long Thin Drag tour), regularly turned up at Spalding on specials to the bulb fields and often on the Brighton Main line during Sunday diversion via Redhill ............................

 

and the 4-SUB or SR design 4-EPB have to be relatively low hanging fruit

 

Do you have a spare £600,000.00 to pat for this.    Charlie

[charliepetty]

That in a nutshell is the problem - why would a much higher specification and quality model be available for less?

On current prices a Class 66 would be far more than that.    Charlie

[Southernman46]

Do you have a spare £600,000.00 to pat for this.    Charlie

Nooo but that's why you lads make 'em and we buy them off you ...................

 

Interesting to know that's sort of £ required for development and tooling etc of such unit ..........

[stovepipe]

I think class 30/31 would be a good option. The Hornby one has issues and a lot of the early models have disintegrated now. New tooling could cover both Mirrlees and EE versions, plenty of liveries, and scope for limited editions - royal train, carriage heating varieties etc.

[Roy Langridge]

I struggle to see the business model with some of the suggestions made. Where an ok model already exists, I am not convinced the sales will be there to justify a top-notch model.

 

Take the class 156. The Limby model had severe shortcomings, very severe. The same cannot be said for the current locos being suggested. Sure they could do with an upgrade, but will people pay the sort of money Charlie would have to charge if the existing model was still available at 1/2 the cost? One hell of a risk to take.

 

The competition could play nasty. Take the talk of a sealed beam peak. If Charlie were to do one, what chances Bachmann rerelease theirs? Likewise the Class 31 from Hornby...

 

I concur with the comment re sticking to multiple units. The competition is much weaker and you have a proven track record.

 

Roy

Edited November 29, 2017 by Roy Langridge

[Markwalker67]

I think a 170 has the most flexibility. 158 would be good but with the Bachmann variant on the way (one day) it doesn't make sense.

 

All the loco types mention have to my mind good enough versions already available. The 66 for example, I already have a good few Bachmann models which I don't want to obsolete.

 

I think a 170 has the most flexibility. 158 would be good but with the Bachmann variant on the way (one day) it doesn't make sense.

 

All the loco types mention have to my mind good enough versions already available. The 66 for example, I already have a good few Bachmann models which I don't want to obsolete.