Current Models Available in the Market Place today

[JDW]

It might look OK (real steam is better than fake smoke at least) but apparently they were very difficult to control, and only really any good for roundy-roundy layouts.

[Dunsignalling]

As mentioned in my earlier post, smoke does not scale down!

 

Even in 7mm it doesn't look right.

 

The burning of smoke oil is both anti-social, harmful to the environment and a damned nuisance to everything it settles on in the immediate vicinity - including track. If a manufacturer like Realtrack were to consider a realistic smoke unit in a model, the first prioroty is safety and the second most important consideration is whether it looks like the real thing. It would need a considerable ammount of time investment, not to mention money, to research and get it to a prototype stage.

 

It's why I made the suggestion of how theatre hazers work. I am involved in backstage work ( as one of my other hobbies ) and would state that the heating up of water to produce steam as a diesel exhaust ( I know, the irony isn't lost on me ) would be a more ethical and productive way to start some research. Then of course, you would have to insert the disclaimers of bioling hot water inside a model in case anyone gets burned......!

 

In all seriousness though, steam is a lot finer than smoke and would look a hundred times better. I really know nothing of the mechanics of smoke gizmos in locos, but surely the heating element has to get quite hot to burn the oil anyway, so would a small scale kettle be any more dangerous - so long as it was encased in a suitable container. If said steam could be coloured to reflect different Diesel classes penchant for a particular type of exhaust, then that would also be most excellent.

 

The smoke 'thing' would be the next game changer for modellers, the same as sound was. Whoever manages to crack this particular nut and patent it, would no doubt be quite wealthy.

 

cheers

 

Andy

Existing smoke units don't burn the oil, they just vaporise it. After it exits the chimney it re-condenses onto whatever it hits; usually coach roofs or the track.

 

John

[Clive Mortimore]

Existing smoke units don't burn the oil, they just vaporise it. After it exits the chimney it re-condenses onto whatever it hits; usually coach roofs or the track.

 

John

Oh very trendy, vaping not smoking

[rob D2]

I would say from a commercial point of view, forget DMUs ,EMUS, ......personally I think people would only pay a premium for trophy items like locos.

 

So, in my view , the most popular types of loco that have been done in a mediocre fashion or could do with an upgrade.

 

Step forward Class 31,37,47,50,66.

 

Nothing really wrong with the bachy 37,47 but they could be a rolls Royce standard version. However what will the market bare for cost ? Bells and whistles I’d go to about £200.....and there’s the problem as Bachmann sound stuff already has an RRp over that.

[Roy Langridge]

I would say from a commercial point of view, forget DMUs ,EMUS, ......personally I think people would only pay a premium for trophy items like locos.

 

So, in my view , the most popular types of loco that have been done in a mediocre fashion or could do with an upgrade.

 

Step forward Class 31,37,47,50,66.

 

Nothing really wrong with the bachy 37,47 but they could be a rolls Royce standard version. However what will the market bare for cost ? Bells and whistles I’d go to about £200.....and there’s the problem as Bachmann sound stuff already has an RRp over that.

I doubt that £200 will get you bells and whistles. Look at the SLW Class 24. £170 now without sound, add that and you are pushing towards £300. I don’t see anything from Charlie being much less, if anything.

 

Roy

[Kelly]

I doubt that £200 will get you bells and whistles. Look at the SLW Class 24. £170 now without sound, add that and you are pushing towards £300. I don’t see anything from Charlie being much less, if anything.

 

Roy

£300 with DCC Sound + SuperCap iirc now for the newer  batch models. Plus extra if you want EM/P4 wheel option.

 

I doubt adding smoke would come in less than £75-100 extra so likely nearer to £400 perhaps for all the bells and whistles. Is it worth it? eye of the beholder type question perhaps. Personally I don't think smoke can be made to work reliably and cleanly enough (do we really want moisture deposits on our stock and track with DCC going through it? perhaps fine if Radio Control was used in place of DCC though?)

[Roy Langridge]

£300 with DCC Sound + SuperCap iirc now for the newer batch models. Plus extra if you want EM/P4 wheel option.

 

I doubt adding smoke would come in less than £75-100 extra so likely nearer to £400 perhaps for all the bells and whistles. Is it worth it? eye of the beholder type question perhaps. Personally I don't think smoke can be made to work reliably and cleanly enough (do we really want moisture deposits on our stock and track with DCC going through it? perhaps fine if Radio Control was used in place of DCC though?)

Radio control with sound and smoke would put one hell of a drain on the batteries you can fit in an 00 model. I’ll stick to DCC and no smoke for now.

 

Roy

[The Black Hat]

£300 with DCC Sound + SuperCap iirc now for the newer  batch models. Plus extra if you want EM/P4 wheel option.

 

I doubt adding smoke would come in less than £75-100 extra so likely nearer to £400 perhaps for all the bells and whistles. Is it worth it? eye of the beholder type question perhaps. Personally I don't think smoke can be made to work reliably and cleanly enough (do we really want moisture deposits on our stock and track with DCC going through it? perhaps fine if Radio Control was used in place of DCC though?)

 

In some ways you already have remote control. Hook up your DCC controller like ECoS to a router for Wi-Fi and off you go. We were driving engines on mobile phones using a free app at the last exhibition. People were wondering how on earth things were moving when there was no one stood behind the layout!

[adb968008]

I’d say a class 55, it’s one of the oldest rtr diesels still in the market, a popular one and ripe for picking.

 

As for a Unit, i’d Imagine from a multiple unit research perspective, you probably have the highest amount of mkt research data available...i’d Look through your website, which lists a fantastic range of no longer available kits, and pick the one with most unfulfilled orders.

Edited December 16, 2017 by adb968008

[charliepetty]

I’d say a class 55, it’s one of the oldest rtr diesels still in the market, a popular one and ripe for picking.

 

As for a Unit, i’d Imagine from a multiple unit research perspective, you probably have the highest amount of mkt research data available...i’d Look through your website, which lists a fantastic range of no longer available kits, and pick the one with most unfulfilled orders.

BUT 3 Car Units would cost over £300.00.    That's the problem.    Charlie

[31A]

Just do the Deltic, then!

[DRS Crewe On A Mission]

I suppose the issue regarding units with more than two cars which is the majority of them is that with every additional car produced comes the added extra cost. 

 

I was looking at some photos of the new Class 345s the other day and they are nine car units. I then began to think about them in model form. There is no doubt that the price tag for one in OO Gauge would be into four figures. Then begs the question just how many people can afford over £1000 for one unit? A very very small minority most likely which I would think means that these types of units with more carriages won't be produced in RTR form anytime soon as the target market is so small, not because of the unit in question but because of the price tag. 

[BigAndy]

I suppose the issue regarding units with more than two cars which is the majority of them is that with every additional car produced comes the added extra cost. 

 

I was looking at some photos of the new Class 345s the other day and they are nine car units. I then began to think about them in model form. There is no doubt that the price tag for one in OO Gauge would be into four figures. Then begs the question just how many people can afford over £1000 for one unit? A very very small minority most likely which I would think means that these types of units with more carriages won't be produced in RTR form anytime soon as the target market is so small, not because of the unit in question but because of the price tag. 

 

Not until good quality 3D printers at an affordable price for everyone become available at any rate. Then it will be a case of 'purchasing' the 3D CAD work, downloading it and then printing off however many coaches you want.

That will be the only viable and economical way that a manufacturer will be able to produce something like a 345, and of course the only way that most modellers will be able to own a complete set. Then of course you would still have wheels, motors etc to buy......

 

cheers

 

Andy

[Roy Langridge]

Not until good quality 3D printers at an affordable price for everyone become available at any rate. Then it will be a case of 'purchasing' the 3D CAD work, downloading it and then printing off however many coaches you want.

That will be the only viable and economical way that a manufacturer will be able to produce something like a 345, and of course the only way that most modellers will be able to own a complete set. Then of course you would still have wheels, motors etc to buy......

 

cheers

 

Andy

But maybe not that bad. A Class 345 has only four different coaches I think, so one tooling may suit several coaches in a set. That may lower the cost.

 

Roy

[royaloak]

But maybe not that bad. A Class 345 has only four different coaches I think, so one tooling may suit several coaches in a set. That may lower the cost.

 

Roy

As long as enough of that type of coach is produced!

Look at the Hornby GWR green HST and the limited number of Standard class coaches produced, demand has outstripped supply so some of us are buying up First class coaches to turn into Standard class ones but the shops are left with Powercars, Buffets and TGSs because there are not enough 1sts or standards available.

[25901]

Why rehash rtr models already in existence when there are so many 'virgin' possibilities out there?  The Ruston 88DS can appear in a variety of legitimate BR liveries, it's baby brother the 48DS is damn cute and comes with the option of early or late cabs, the North British 0-4-0 goes a step further with early or late pattern bodies and even has an outside frame variant, the list goes on and on. Big possibilities in the world of small diesels.

 

The small shunters have a big problem, no space inside. A 88ds would be a super shunter for a lot of layouts and yes you can buy a kit but I fear many companies will miss this due to production issues with size. The same goes for any NBL shunter though one chassis will cover quite a few different 0-4-0's but the wonderful Sentinel has helped break the mould. 

[Roy Langridge]

As long as enough of that type of coach is produced!

Look at the Hornby GWR green HST and the limited number of Standard class coaches produced, demand has outstripped supply so some of us are buying up First class coaches to turn into Standard class ones but the shops are left with Powercars, Buffets and TGSs because there are not enough 1sts or standards available.

Only an issue if they are sold separately, which need not be the case.

 

Roy

[GordonC]

I'd think it very difficult to pick a loco to replace which would be likely to sell enough where the current model

 

The Bachmann Class 20 looks not too bad with lights fitted and they must already have sold a lot, but with them tooling up the 20/3 I'd be amazed if they didn't also tool up to fit lights to the original 20s. While they're unlikely to be improved to SLW standards, there could potentially be an opening there if you're really aiming for detail - widely used, good lifespan, lots of liveries. I'm not sure if I'd replace the Bachmann ones I already have unless its something special, perhaps sound features.

 

Class 37 - does it need to be a whole loco - would producing WIPAC-lighted noses be an option for swapping onto Bachmann bodies and chassis? It does have longevity, geographical spread and a variety of liveries. Personally I'd rather have a selection of 37s in different liveries at the standard of the Bachmann one than spend a lot more on a few more detailed ones.

 

Class 47 - I'm not keen on the Bachmann flush-fronted ones - the lights look too big and are recessed where the Heljan effort looked better in that respect.

 

Class 55 - possible, but there was only 22 of them and there will have been a lot already produced by Bachmann in a more limited selection of liveries. The obvious way to trump the Bachmann model I'd think would be focussing on the sound features

 

If it must be a loco I'd suggest Class 31 - the Hornby one has shape issues and they've hardly been prolific at producing earlier liveries after the first few batches had the self-destruct Mazak problems. Definitely room for improvement! BR Era 31/4's have been particularly thin on the ground and with the right tooling could you not also cover the earlier Class 30s too - are there sound recordings of those anywhere?

 

or Class 86!!!

 

But like many others, I'd suggest concentrating on DMUs ... Class 104 or 120 for me!

[ColinK]

I agree with the 31 but only really because of the mazak rot. I still think dmu’s are the best way forward for Charlie. I know that a TransPennine or Cross Country unit would be expensive (£300 plus for a 3 car set), but I don’t mind paying that for a good model that I really want. Maybe a similar approach to the APT project under discussion elsewhere.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...Class 55 - possible, but there was only 22 of them and there will have been a lot already produced by Bachmann in a more limited selection of liveries. The obvious way to trump the Bachmann model I'd think would be focussing on the sound features ...

 It was the mention of an ambitious sound fit that pushed me toward the class 55 as the obvious target among the weaker apperance OO diesel models currently before us. The Bach model was designed before a sound fit became the thing to do, so the relatively large body shell with space to fit decent infinite baffle speakers cannot be exploited without rebuilding the mechanism completely. And when it comes to sound effects this one has the 'Weeeeow boom clang-a-bang' repertoire normally only found in pop recording studios.

 

... Class 31 - the Hornby one has shape issues and they've hardly been prolific at producing earlier liveries ...and with the right tooling could you not also cover the earlier Class 30s too ...

 That would be my no 2 vote because of the significant cab side window error which is difficult to correct, but it should be noted that it is the class 30 that is required for 'eartlier  liveries' if by that is meant any applied between 1957 and 1965. There were no 31's built new, all are conversions of 30's by engine change following the trial install of the EE unit in 1964.

[Philip Jackson]

my vote is for swindon 124 trans pennine dmu or the class 141 railbus

[Fluo66]

After Bachmann has cancelled/suspended the retooled class 166 what about this DMU? Many variants (165,166,168,170) and liveries to produce. Just a thought...

[JDW]

Funnily enough I just came back to this thread having had the thought "what about a 165?"  Since the Bachmann retooled 166 is getting further and further away it seems, it would both complement that model and also maybe steal a march on it if it were released first, as well as pick up sales that way from people who don't know/don't care about the difference between a 165 and 166 who just want a "Turbo" DMU. (not to be confused with a Turbostar!).  It would also give scope for the Chiltern units (Chiltern only having 165s) as well as the version of Thames Trains/FGW Link livery with green circles on the doors instead of the green S-shape on the 166s.  And now under FGW the class will start to spread its wings further as the units are displaced to places like the Severn Beach route, giving a wider geographical sphere of operation.  Plus they're quite nice looking units too.  

[The Black Hat]

Funnily enough I just came back to this thread having had the thought "what about a 165?"  Since the Bachmann retooled 166 is getting further and further away it seems, it would both complement that model and also maybe steal a march on it if it were released first, as well as pick up sales that way from people who don't know/don't care about the difference between a 165 and 166 who just want a "Turbo" DMU. (not to be confused with a Turbostar!).  It would also give scope for the Chiltern units (Chiltern only having 165s) as well as the version of Thames Trains/FGW Link livery with green circles on the doors instead of the green S-shape on the 166s.  And now under FGW the class will start to spread its wings further as the units are displaced to places like the Severn Beach route, giving a wider geographical sphere of operation.  Plus they're quite nice looking units too.  

 

While I'm agreeing that this option just became a lot more feasible given Bachmann kicking off the 166 into touch, I think the other option mentioned would be the best unit for Charlie to be doing.

 

Class 170s have become widespread, operate over many routes and have a host of liveries to choose from. They cover just about every region since privitisation. Personally, they would be my choice for the next unit that Charlie and the team attempted.

[GordonC]

While I'm agreeing that this option just became a lot more feasible given Bachmann kicking off the 166 into touch, I think the other option mentioned would be the best unit for Charlie to be doing.

 

Class 170s have become widespread, operate over many routes and have a host of liveries to choose from. They cover just about every region since privitisation. Personally, they would be my choice for the next unit that Charlie and the team attempted.

 

Are the Bachmann Class 170s all that bad? Rather than duplicating would there not be more mileage in a newly tooled model that has no previous competition? Class 104? 120? 175? 185?