Current Models Available in the Market Place today

[JDW]

I'd say the 170 is a bit better than the 158 in terms of detail (especially around the front end - the lights and dummy coupler on the 158 are a little crude) and for it's time it was a very good model.  It's a little dated now, mainly in the fact that it is not DCC ready.  However, I'd say it is far from a "bad" model, it looks like a 170, is (as far as I know) reasonably accurate, and runs well*.  I'd say there are other models that would be better choices, the 170 seems a bit "workaday" for many, but then again it is true that it is a fairly widespread and common part of the railway scene these days. 

 

*But each to their own on that front - I'd also describe the Bachmann 47 as a "good" model,while others have described it as 'dire', 'awful', etc. so use your own judgement!

[Kelly]

After Bachmann has cancelled/suspended the retooled class 166 what about this DMU? Many variants (165,166,168,170) and liveries to produce. Just a thought...

 

165/166 and 170 are very different items, one is closely related to the Networker (365/465), the other is related to the Electrostars (375 etc).

 

The 165/166 could work as could the 170, but it is a gamble I'd think. But ones to the quality of the 144/156 etc would be popular i'm sure.

[black and decker boy]

I’d say a 1st gen DMU, 104 or 120 perhaps.

 

I’m sure Bachmann would rattle out an upgraded Turbo/turbostar if Realtrack announced one

 

I’d love see a class 303 or a 320/321 but not sure on size of market

 

On track plant could be another option, seems a growing interest in it

[wombatofludham]

I know Charlie was asking for locomotive nominations (still think the 47 is a no-brainer but ditch the idea of smoke, it doesn't scale) but if we are talking units, after the 142 I'd suggest Realtrack look at releasing a 155. I know the real units were lemons until they were converted to 153s but they did run for a few years everywhere from Penzance to Swindon in the east and Manchester in the north in Provincial livery, and West Yorkshire's small class of units have covered York to Manchester and Blackpool, and as they were not converted to 153s, have run in several colour schemes, including various Northern liveries that seem to be very popular. Also, of course, the MetroTrain units ran alongside the 156 and 14x railbuses so as Realtrack already have those on their books, it's a unit that has synergy with the existing range. Plus in their original Provo livery they were essentially the 1980s equivalent of the Western Cross Country units so have that inexplicably popular Western Region cachet.

 

Before anyone says anything about the Dapornby model, it's flawed. With Realtrack 156 mechanicals as a basis for the unit and the Realtrack-Rapido attention to detail I suspect a new model could be a low hanging fruit to grab - and of course, if the toolings could be designed to allow the production of a 153 as well, it would compete with Hornby's offering on quality and detail much as the 156 has and the 142 will do.

 

In fact it's such an obvious low hanging fruit it's almost a windfall.

[adb968008]

Are the Bachmann Class 170s all that bad? Rather than duplicating would there not be more mileage in a newly tooled model that has no previous competition? Class 104? 120? 175? 185?

 

As was stated above, at £100 per vehicle.. ?

 

I'd love to see a transpenine, but £600 would probably put it beyond most people, especially given theres only 2 liveries and perhaps 4 variations of livery, though shorter formations could be made.

A Class 104 takes me straight back to my childhood, but at £300..for a 3 car ?.. maybe one of the bigger guys could do this one cheaper.

 

I think an AC EMU would be the best bet, but given the caution thrown at these over the decades by Manufacturers, and that AC Locos tend to be slow sellers.. again I can see the caution.

 

I think we've reached a plateau in multiple units where livery variation vs cost vs demand is out of reach for many possibilities.

Edited January 5, 2018 by adb968008

[Clive Mortimore]

As was stated above, at £100 per vehicle.. ?

 

I'd love to see a transpenine, but £600 would probably put it beyond most people, especially given theres only 2 liveries and perhaps 4 variations of livery, though shorter formations could be made.

A Class 104 takes me straight back to my childhood, but at £300..for a 3 car ?.. maybe one of the bigger guys could do this one cheaper.

 

I think an AC EMU would be the best bet, but given the caution thrown at these over the decades by Manufacturers, and that AC Locos tend to be slow sellers.. again I can see the caution.

 

I think we've reached a plateau in multiple units where livery variation vs cost vs demand is out of reach for many possibilities.

Still loads of units to do , just take the modernisation ones.

 

Wickhams

Gloucester

Gloucester cross country

Park Royal

Met Cam lightweight

Met Cam Roller engine

Cravens Rolls engine

Cravens Rolls-hydraulic 

BRCW

Derby Glasgow green trains

Derby 3 car suburban

Derby 3 car Lea Valley

Derby 4 car Marlybone

Derby 4 car St Pancras

Swindon Cross country

Swindon Inter-city 3 car Ayrshire

Swindon Inter-city 3/6 car Glasgow

Swindon Inter City 4 car

Trans Pennine

6S

6L

6B

Oxted units

Tadpoles

AM2

AM3

AM4

AM4/2

AM5 3car

AM5 4car

AM6

Shenfield stock

AM7

Southend stock

AM8 4car

AM8 4car Tilbury boat trains

AM8 3 car

AM9 2 car/4car buffet/4car

AM10

AM11

Class 312

North London Eastleigh set

South Tyneside Eastleigh unit

South Tyneside MLV }Everyone likes a parcels car.

Cravens MLV              }

Derby lightweight single car 

 

I would like to see a RTR LNWR Oerlikon set or a NER Tyneside unit or a L&YR Bury train.

[Jim76]

I know Charlie was asking for locomotive nominations (still think the 47 is a no-brainer but ditch the idea of smoke, it doesn't scale) but if we are talking units, after the 142 I'd suggest Realtrack look at releasing a 155. I know the real units were lemons until they were converted to 153s but they did run for a few years everywhere from Penzance to Swindon in the east and Manchester in the north in Provincial livery, and West Yorkshire's small class of units have covered York to Manchester and Blackpool, and as they were not converted to 153s, have run in several colour schemes, including various Northern liveries that seem to be very popular. Also, of course, the MetroTrain units ran alongside the 156 and 14x railbuses so as Realtrack already have those on their books, it's a unit that has synergy with the existing range. Plus in their original Provo livery they were essentially the 1980s equivalent of the Western Cross Country units so have that inexplicably popular Western Region cachet.

 

Before anyone says anything about the Dapornby model, it's flawed. With Realtrack 156 mechanicals as a basis for the unit and the Realtrack-Rapido attention to detail I suspect a new model could be a low hanging fruit to grab - and of course, if the toolings could be designed to allow the production of a 153 as well, it would compete with Hornby's offering on quality and detail much as the 156 has and the 142 will do.

 

In fact it's such an obvious low hanging fruit it's almost a windfall.

Good call. A Class 155 is a no brainer in my opinion. Jim

[adb968008]

Still loads of units to do , just take the modernisation ones.

 

Wickhams

Gloucester

Gloucester cross country

Park Royal

Met Cam lightweight

Met Cam Roller engine

Cravens Rolls engine

Cravens Rolls-hydraulic

BRCW

Derby Glasgow green trains

Derby 3 car suburban

Derby 3 car Lea Valley

Derby 4 car Marlybone

Derby 4 car St Pancras

Swindon Cross country

Swindon Inter-city 3 car Ayrshire

Swindon Inter-city 3/6 car Glasgow

Swindon Inter City 4 car

Trans Pennine

6S

6L

6B

Oxted units

Tadpoles

AM2

AM3

AM4

AM4/2

AM5 3car

AM5 4car

AM6

Shenfield stock

AM7

Southend stock

AM8 4car

AM8 4car Tilbury boat trains

AM8 3 car

AM9 2 car/4car buffet/4car

AM10

AM11

Class 312

North London Eastleigh set

South Tyneside Eastleigh unit

South Tyneside MLV }Everyone likes a parcels car.

Cravens MLV }

Derby lightweight single car

 

I would like to see a RTR LNWR Oerlikon set or a NER Tyneside unit or a L&YR Bury train.

I too would like to see much of that wish list, but would it be possible to sell 3-6000 Tyneside MLVs ? @£100 a piece, would you risk your house on it ?

Same too for an AM4.. probably the most potential of any BR era AC EMU to sell.. but a 4 car, or even a 3car @£300-400 a unit would 3000- 6000 sell ? And would you bet two houses on developing it ?

 

As was stated above, at £100 per vehicle.. ?

I think we've reached a plateau in multiple units where livery variation vs cost vs demand is out of reach for many possibilities.

For AC EMUs, I think the only way forward is railroad quality with a decent paint job, which I suspect rules out the current supplier.

 

If anything AC was made, I think the least risk is the class 89.. most people will buy 1 Loco in a class, even electrics, and this one comes with enough liveries to suit everyone, but is unsuited to the big boys as they will want to produce one or two liveries over many years, where as this Loco is likely to be a one hit wonder, As independents tend to scatter gun liveries in one production run and get full return, the prototype, livery potential and demand all align.

How much.. we’ll ive bought all 3 102xx diesels at £170, so i’d Imagine at £200 i’d buy it, maybe 2 and do a cheeky renumber. I'd imagine but for Brexit the badger (89) would have already been announced by now, probably by Heljan, but given as they've gone "0" and announced nothing new in 00 for nigh on 2 years, as an EU company I'd imagine they've got cold feet on anything UK OO now.

Edited January 6, 2018 by adb968008

[GordonC]

would a class 155 be all that difficult for Hornby to do from their 153s?

 

I'd think that could be a risky option

[frobisher]

would a class 155 be all that difficult for Hornby to do from their 153s?

It would be a new body shell (and that would need slides at minimum to give the door variants) and possibly a new unpowered chassis plus electric coupling between the two. Existing CAD would be a head start though.

 

I'd think that could be a risky option

Maybe so. If it was a Realtrack project, it would make sense to put provision within the tooling to produce all the variants of the 155 which would include the 153, and hence the reformed 155s we've been promised in real life.

[GordonC]

I'd certainly think what Hornby have from the 153 would be a large head start. The Hornby 153 strikes me as a decent model, of course it could be improved but with Hornby already produced a number of livery varieties, that would be likely to mean reduced sales for anyone else producing the same model.

 

unless there's an obvious and step change improvement in standard of the model, duplication has got to be risky.

[Allegheny1600]

I amused by how you are all insisting on talking 'units' when Charlie has clearly requested what Locos would be liked!

Does no-one want any better locos, then?

[Mike Storey]

I amused by how you are all insisting on talking 'units' when Charlie has clearly requested what Locos would be liked!

Does no-one want any better locos, then?

 

Yes, and I think most have agreed it is between a 37, 47 or 55. Personally, whilst I love them, a 55 would be no use to me, but I would buy a SLW=standard or better, of the other two for sure, in Rail Blue. Up to Charlie to respond really. Meanwhile, our frothing for all other things will have to continue.......

[JDW]

I amused by how you are all insisting on talking 'units' when Charlie has clearly requested what Locos would be liked!

Does no-one want any better locos, then?

 

 

Yes, and I think most have agreed it is between a 37, 47 or 55. Personally, whilst I love them, a 55 would be no use to me, but I would buy a SLW=standard or better, of the other two for sure, in Rail Blue. Up to Charlie to respond really. Meanwhile, our frothing for all other things will have to continue.......

 

Very true, the 37 and 47 will always be a popular choice, I suspect that many people think that as Realtrack is gaining a reputation for producing excellent DMUs, then that might be an avenue worth pursuing rather that "yet another 47".  Of course, Charlie might want to do something other than a DMU, or the finances might not stack up. But it's certainly a point I'd agree with.  

[adb968008]

i'd caution another 47.. the 47 is a long term seller, that Hornby still has a market for Lima ones, and the Lima market is healthy, and that Bachmann has been jobbing out dozens and dozens of liveries, any new 47 will need to be cheap enough for people to want to trade in their current armfuls for the new one. if not, it would be just a niche expensive 47 and many people will be reluctant to give up their older ones. I know several people with over 50x 47's in their collection, but doubt at a new one reaching £180 a piece they will dump the lot. Similar too, the existing manufacturers would see this encroachment onto their territory and defend it vigoursly. Classes 08, 31, 37 and 47 I think would be risky ventures.

Edited January 6, 2018 by adb968008

[wombatofludham]

I'd certainly think what Hornby have from the 153 would be a large head start. The Hornby 153 strikes me as a decent model, of course it could be improved but with Hornby already produced a number of livery varieties, that would be likely to mean reduced sales for anyone else producing the same model.

 

unless there's an obvious and step change improvement in standard of the model, duplication has got to be risky.

The ex-Lima 156 is a better model than the Dapornby 155 yet the Realtrack 156 is apparently selling well. Even the Hornby 153 is capable of being done to a higher standard, not least in the power train department. A set of clever tools capable of doing both a 153 and 155 to the same standard as the 156 wouldn't be any more of a risk than the 156 has been or the 142 will be, both of which have models in the Hornby catalogue. Realtrack's DMUs are catering for a higher level market and even Hornby's 153 (which I like) can be improved upon.

 

As for the 47 - again we're talking a different market segment. Comparing a "SLW" quality 47 with even the Bachmann 47 isn't comparing like with like. What Charlie has suggested is a model aimed at those who routinely trot out the comment "I would rather buy one excellent model than several cheaper ones with compromises". Those who feel they need several dozen 47s will probably stick with Bachmann, people like me who need no more than a couple would probably go for this proposal. The reason why people are suggesting the 47 and 37 are the sheer numbers and geographical distribution means that for a niche market product, the chances of snaring in the punters who are unhappy with the current available models is greater. After all Charlie did ask about current models which would benefit from a museum quality alternative which clearly indicates a competing model with something already out there. With over 500 built, the 47 can cope with multiple models at different price ranges - Hornby for modelling on a budget, Bachmann for a mid range market and a new super detailed model for the Gin and Jag set (we can exclude the Heljan model as effectively dead). Ditto the 37.

[frobisher]

The problem with the 47 is the shear number of tooling variants required to cover the bases (ditto 37, 08 and to a lesser extent 31) which complicates picking your initial target. Charlie's better target is something less mainstream and effectively repeat what SLW did (but obviously a different prototype...).

 

I'd still say that according to Charlie's criteria at the top of the thread, the 06 hits it perfectly. Desperately needs a new (accurate!) model, not that many variations, a few livery variants and you do have the departmental celebrity that lived down in Reading for a while (D2420/06003/97020). The fondness for the type is way out of proportion to the number built probably due to Hornby's model slapped out on the existing 0-4-0 Holden chassis being omnipresent in trainsets and as Collector's club models over the years.

[adb968008]

The problem with the 47 is the shear number of tooling variants required to cover the bases (ditto 37, 08 and to a lesser extent 31) which complicates picking your initial target. Charlie's better target is something less mainstream and effectively repeat what SLW did (but obviously a different prototype...).

 

I'd still say that according to Charlie's criteria at the top of the thread, the 06 hits it perfectly. Desperately needs a new (accurate!) model, not that many variations, a few livery variants and you do have the departmental celebrity that lived down in Reading for a while (D2420/06003/97020). The fondness for the type is way out of proportion to the number built probably due to Hornby's model slapped out on the existing 0-4-0 Holden chassis being omnipresent in trainsets and as Collector's club models over the years.

 

 

A Class 06 would certainly fill a gap and what a great obvious one too !, as would a Class 02, but the 06 has greater longevity in service and geography.

There's easily 5 versions without duplication.. Plain Green, Green/Wasp ends, Blue Wasp ends, PWM version, Preserved version. I'd imagine it'd be cheap enough for people to take a couple.

Edited January 6, 2018 by adb968008

[Fluo66]

165/166 and 170 are very different items, one is closely related to the Networker (365/465), the other is related to the Electrostars (375 etc).

 

The 165/166 could work as could the 170, but it is a gamble I'd think. But ones to the quality of the 144/156 etc would be popular i'm sure.

 

Kelly, of course you are right about the 166 / 170. I know they are different. I own both models. But with the postponed class 166 I think Bachmann won't produce Non-DCC versions of their older models anymore. This includes the class 170 as well as the 220/221. As said from others before both DMUs have a wide range of liveries and variants. With the cancellation from Bachmann this gives an other manufacturer a timeframe of 2 or 3 years to produce their own models.

 

On the other hand Charlie asked for a diesel engine that was on the market before. In my opinion he can produce nearly every model from this range. Here in Germany it is not unusual that many models are offered from different manufactures at the same time. I don't think the german/continental market is much bigger than the UK market. For example take the class V200. It was produced from 7 or 8 different manufactures over the years in more than 115 variants/liveries. If Charlie and Arran do it right their models will sell, no matter for which class they'll go. And I know they will do it right!

 

Personally I would prefer a class that wasn't produced before. My favourite is the class 180 also if this is not my modelled region. But with just 14 train sets and a few different liveries of the prototype I think the Adelante will sadly never be produced...

[Jim76]

I too would like to see much of that wish list, but would it be possible to sell 3-6000 Tyneside MLVs ? @£100 a piece, would you risk your house on it ?

Same too for an AM4.. probably the most potential of any BR era AC EMU to sell.. but a 4 car, or even a 3car @£300-400 a unit would 3000- 6000 sell ? And would you bet two houses on developing it ?

 

For AC EMUs, I think the only way forward is railroad quality with a decent paint job, which I suspect rules out the current supplier.

 

If anything AC was made, I think the least risk is the class 89.. most people will buy 1 Loco in a class, even electrics, and this one comes with enough liveries to suit everyone, but is unsuited to the big boys as they will want to produce one or two liveries over many years, where as this Loco is likely to be a one hit wonder, As independents tend to scatter gun liveries in one production run and get full return, the prototype, livery potential and demand all align.

How much.. we’ll ive bought all 3 102xx diesels at £170, so i’d Imagine at £200 i’d buy it, maybe 2 and do a cheeky renumber. I'd imagine but for Brexit the badger (89) would have already been announced by now, probably by Heljan, but given as they've gone "0" and announced nothing new in 00 for nigh on 2 years, as an EU company I'd imagine they've got cold feet on anything UK OO now.

I think a Class 304 would probably have the greatest potential as would a Class 303/311 or a Class 309. Or how about a PEP derived unit: 313, 314, 315, 507 & 508? As for locomotives again I agree a Class 89 would make the most sense with three liveries to choose from. Jim. Edited January 6, 2018 by Jim76

[Roy Langridge]

I think a Class 304 would probably have the greatest potential as would a Class 303/311 or a Class 309. Or how about a PEP derived unit: 313, 314, 315, 507 & 508? As for locomotives again I agree a Class 89 would make the most sense with three liveries to choose from. Jim.

Not an 89 in my book. It may have had 3 liveries but there was only ever one. A high-spec version of any of the other locos mentioned would have people buying multiple versions, but not the badger.

 

And before people mention Heljan’s “one off” offerings, with all due respect to Realtrack, Heljan are a much bigger company to carry that risk.

 

Roy

[wombatofludham]

Given I think the 89 is a pig ugly useless heap of electronic recycling that desecrates the very lovely creature that it is nicknamed after, I think it's safe to say I'm with Roy.

 

Hell, it was the only loco Mad Thatch ever named and rode behind. That more than qualifies it for oblivion.

[adb968008]

Not an 89 in my book. It may have had 3 liveries but there was only ever one.

Roy

It’s History isn’t finished yet, there’s most likely another livery or two in it yet, probably by the time any model is ready to release.

 

, I think it's safe to say I'm with Roy.Hell, it was the only loco Mad Thatch ever named and rode behind. That more than qualifies it for oblivion.

Your forgetting thatcher had a cab ride in a 142 in Yorkshire, she might have had one in Canada too, perhaps they should create a miniature of her and stick it in the back cab of the pacer in a forthcoming release ;-) Edited January 7, 2018 by adb968008

[Guest theonlydt]

Bachmann's 2018 release of new tooling probably thins out at least the DMU recommendations. For those complaining about the quality of the 170, there's new tooling on the 170, 171 and 168. Also new tooling for 159.

 

New tooling for Class 25 - but given that SLW did a 25 I can't imagine Realtrack wanted to replicate.

 

To me it seems as though if it's a locomotive - Realtrack are going to be duplicating something that's already done (but hopefully better). Their two routes are either

- A less popular model/prototype that's not been updated/upgraded as other manufacturers haven't taken the plunge

- Jump in with versions of 37/47 assuming that there's a niche there despite Bachmann, Hornby, Heljan, Vitrains etc etc

 

DMUs - well, they're expensive when you're looking at 4+ cars. I have a soft spot for the class 123 (4 car), 124 (6 car), but given production was only 40 of the former and 6 of the later, it's a very limited market... Same with my (sadistic?) liking of the class 180.

 

Will be interesting to see what Realtrack decide.

[wombatofludham]

Your forgetting thatcher had a cab ride in a 142 in Yorkshire, she might have had one in Canada too, perhaps they should create a miniature of her and stick it in the back cab of the pacer in a forthcoming release ;-)

To be honest I didn't realise she'd cabbed a 142. Very appropriate seeing as she thought everything should be done on the cheap and only poor people didn't want a car. She probably thought it was a new technology Leyland bus for the deregulated bus bandits.