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OO gauge Crowdfunded APT-P (Warley announcement)

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Surely the existence of a Power Car in the middle means that it would make no sense modelling anything except for the pre-production prototype -shorter sets? Plus the length and cost of long sets is beyond the reach of most of us?

Perhaps DJM / Durham Models should put up a voting page similar to SLW and ask if there is enough interest for the APT Squadron for those modellers who want to 'go all the way'?

It would depend on what they think will sell.

There was some info on the APT-S on the APT website, but I have not been there for a while. It looks like the design was never finalised, so who is to say how it would have run? Also, how many of us will buy a train that was proposed but never existed?

These are not questions for us, but for potential manufacturers.

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In conversing with Mick,

It's been made aware that a black fronted 6 car set could be on the cards - the condition and formation that the preserved set is at Crewe. If anyone else wants this variant please contact Mick, as the more of us there are that want it, the more chance of it becoming an option.

 

What we really need in the description is where the TRSB sits in each set, along with the previously promised coach and full unit numbers. I do feel that to have both the six and seven car sets with yellow fronts is a slight disappointment as it would be nice to have a mix of fronts in those more affordable half length sets.

 

Cheers,

60800

we will endeavor to full fill all requests regarding the frontends. I don't see it being a problem.I will confirm this after speaking to Dave Jones.   

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I don't know much about the APT. Having established from above posts that it is in effect, 2 seperate sets separated by the Power Car(s), then did they ever run in a one cab all Yellow, the other cab yellow with Black window frames? That could be the solution to the dilemma of which one to go for.

 

My own view is that less than a week into the project, there appears to be multiple offerings being made, but without the  detailed info/spec of what the offerings are. I was happy to dive in and show my committment by putting my name down for a 14 car set. I suspect that we are all in the same boat though, that as no monies have been taken, specs or prices confired, then we are all in a position to say thanks, but no thanks, should the unit / cost morph into something we can no longer justify.

 

Perhaps at this stage it should have been kept as a more generic expression of interest, and then later on at the deposit stage, customers being asked to comit to the specific size of unit. Equally, could/would it work that each there is a basic 5 car set, with the other coaches being available as additional, to allow people to construct their own formation. A numbering transfer sheet could be available for personalisation etc too.

 

Just my own ramblings. As I've said before, I really want to see this happen and it would be a shame if it failed due to multiple offerings trying to please all the people, all the time in a scatter gun approach.

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Perhaps at this stage it should have been kept as a more generic expression of interest, and then later on at the deposit stage, customers being asked to comit to the specific size of unit. Equally, could/would it work that each there is a basic 5 car set, with the other coaches being available as additional, to allow people to construct their own formation. 

 

I would go along with this as well.  I, for example, am very interested in a 3 + 1 + 3 or maybe a 4 + 1 + 4, which whilst not possibly realistic, would allow me to run something of a reasonable size on my layout.

 

I haven't yet expressed my interest on the website as I'm not exactly sure how to do that for what I want.  For me it would have been better to list the individual cars that are being made and let me put a tick against the ones I want.  Then I could have any combination I fancied.

Edited by Dixie Dean

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How much is the 14 car going to cost?

The N gauge one is £899 so I would expect the OO one to be a bit more but hopefully only 3 figures.

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I would go along with this as well.  I, for example, am very interested in a 3 + 1 + 3 or maybe a 4 + 1 + 4, which whilst not possibly realistic, would allow me to run something of a reasonable size on my layout.

 

I haven't yet expressed my interest on the website as I'm not exactly sure how to do that for what I want.  For me it would have been better to list the individual cars that are being made and let me put a tick against the ones I want.  Then I could have any combination I fancied.

I understand the thought process there, and in an ideal world I think possibly it would work with a standard line model from one of the big boys.

 

Unfortunately, the Chinese have a minimum order quantity which also extends to individual coaches, and it could be the case that 1 or 2 of your choice would not be available as they fell under the MOQ.

 

A set is easier to handle in this case and as such each set is a minimum order quantity.

 

Doing a xx amount of different sets for a crowdfunder is far easier than doing the lot as individuals, trust me.

 

As for set numbers, side numbers, train makeup etc , this will be done hopefully this week, with schematics, and numbers for each variant proposed published here as a pretty picture or if I cannot get to grips with adobe illustrator, a spreadsheet.

 

Hope this helps.

Cheers

Dave

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As for set numbers, side numbers, train makeup etc , this will be done hopefully this week, with schematics, and numbers for each variant proposed published here as a pretty picture or if I cannot get to grips with adobe illustrator, a spreadsheet.

 

Hi

 

Will this apply to the N gauge version as well?

 

Cheers

 

Paul

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Good luck with it Dave. No interest to me I'm afraid,  though for the novelty of the uniqueness of it a power car and end car might appeal, but not really viable for my needs. Start doing 3rd rail items and I might well be much more interested however :)

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Hi

 

Will this apply to the N gauge version as well?

 

Cheers

 

Paul

Both scales share the same set numbers and decoration.

Cheers

Dave

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Hi 

For detail on packs may I suggest 

A twin power car pack with several number options

DTS, TBF as 370001 

ditto 370002 both with full yellow ends

ditto 370007 with black windows, black logo and red "APT" and read cheat line.

Sets of half train in yellow and yellow with black window surrounds - with the various versions of logos  to cover bases 

370004- 6

Coach packs to allow  370001/2/7 twins to be made full length.

 

The "logic" being it gives a Hornby version upwards and would allow the non catering short set period to be modelled.  370007 with all its finery - a one off ? as the highlight of embelishment for some of the 10 car test trains.

 

The coach pack would with a strong drink allow creating the one off double bogied intermediate coach that ran in test trains at the very end.

 

Might be controversial but the twin pack power cars with the NRM 252 - others available in resin and whitemetal would allow the friends on the Research centre to create  the test trains.

 

Who will be the first to do the ECML test trains with the 56 .... just saying and off to get coat  and check apt-p. com for a picture fix!

Robert  

Edited by Robert Shrives

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Could some explain in as much detail as they have gleaned what car types are being proposed (in OO) and what formations are available in the set options proposed?  Sorry to be so thick, but I just can't get my head around it?

Edited by Dixie Dean

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Could some explain in as much detail as they have gleaned what car types are being proposed (in OO) and what formations are available in the set options proposed?  Sorry to be so thick, but I just can't get my head around it?

I would hope that every type of coach is being produced due to the ticket price.

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Could some explain in as much detail as they have gleaned what car types are being proposed (in OO) and what formations are available in the set options proposed?  Sorry to be so thick, but I just can't get my head around it?

Hi mate,

 

No one knows because we haven’t published those details yet.

I’m working on them at the minute and will publish each set details as either a posh drawing, or a spreadsheet, including both end numbers, coach type and individual running numbers.

 

Once I’ve done them i’ll Pass them to Mich at DToS, and get his thoughts / approval to publish.

 

Cheers

Dave

I would hope that every type of coach is being produced due to the ticket price.

Me too :-)

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Very interested in an OO APT-P . 6 car one for me with Black Window surrounds per 60800s posting.

 

But there are a few things that need resolving first. I’m hoping that the offering will become more refined over the next few months allowing me to sign up with confidence

 

I still think there are far too many variants and options . Seems to be 5/6/7/10/14 cars some with black window surround and some without. Currently my preferred choices of 6 or 7 cars come without black windscreen surround . There are hints it might be offered but that needs sorting out

 

How will the train be powered. Dave is a proponent of corelesss motors. I run DC with electronic track cleaners, so I’m not sure that will be compatible with the train.

 

What scale speed will it be capable of . Obviously it needs to be fast. The class 71 seems to struggle to achieve express speeds per feedback on thread on here. So will this employ a motor that’s capable of shifting 14 cars at speeds of at least scale 125mph (even though I only want 6 cars maybe 7)

 

What will be the method of coupling. At 6 cars this is a long train that will occupy much track space , I operate my layouts in various periods and will want the ability to remove the train and pack it up for its period out of use. Will this be easy to achieve. A semi permanent coupling system with fiddly wires is not ideal for me.

 

Then of course I want to know roughly how much £

 

I’m struggling with all these different versions available. How are you going to design packaging for 5/6/7/10/14 coaches . Surely it would be bespoke for each version. I can’t help thinking that an offering of 6 cars in yellow or black windscreen liveries would be the best with a run of additional coaches for those that want more. Much more simplified logistics. The 6 car train has to come with driving, brake and power units , so the additional intermediate cars would consist of second, first opens and buffet/ restaurant. They may actually all be same just requiring different interiors and decoration. I’m not sure about restaurant but fairly certain the first and second opens were the same external design. Regretably I’m away at the moment and don’t have access to any of my reference materials.

 

So I want one. But for me it’s wait and see what gets offered

Edited by Legend

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Very interested in an OO APT-P . 6 car one for me with Black Window surrounds per 60800s posting.

 

But there are a few things that need resolving first. I’m hoping that the offering will become more refined over the next few months allowing me to sign up with confidence

 

I still think there are far too many variants and options . Seems to be 5/6/7/10/14 cars some with black window surround and some without. Currently my preferred choices of 6 or 7 cars come without black windscreen surround . There are hints it might be offered but that needs sorting out

 

How will the train be powered. Dave is a proponent of corelesss motors. I run DC with electronic track cleaners, so I’m not sure that will be compatible with the train.

 

What scale speed will it be capable of . Obviously it needs to be fast. The class 71 seems to struggle to achieve express speeds per feedback on thread on here. So will this employ a motor that’s capable of shifting 14 cars at speeds of at least scale 125mph (even though I only want 6 cars maybe 7)

 

What will be the method of coupling. At 6 cars this is a long train that will occupy much track space , I operate my layouts in various periods and will want the ability to remove the train and pack it up for its period out of use. Will this be easy to achieve. A semi permanent coupling system with fiddly wires is not ideal for me.

 

Then of course I want to know roughly how much £

 

I’m struggling with all these different versions available. How are you going to design packaging for 5/6/7/10/14 coaches . Surely it would be bespoke for each version. I can’t help thinking that an offering of 6 cars in yellow or black windscreen liveries would be the best with a run of additional coaches for those that want more. Much more simplified logistics. The 6 car train has to come with driving, brake and power units , so the additional intermediate cars would consist of second, first opens and buffet/ restaurant. They may actually all be same just requiring different interiors and decoration. I’m not sure about restaurant but fairly certain the first and second opens were the same external design. Regretably I’m away at the moment and don’t have access to any of my reference materials.

 

So I want one. But for me it’s wait and see what gets offered

 

Hi,

 

some good questions there, and i would start by saying to disconnect your electronic track cleaner as there is ample evidence to suggest it doesn't, and can / could / does harm driving wheels, and electronics in some circumstances. 

 

Coreless motors are here to stay, and quite a few manufacturers use this type of motor due to size and cost, plus the added bonus of smoothness over conventional motors.

So far i've had very few (fingers of 1 hand time) problems with the motors, in 5 figures of models sold.

 

Having been shown the order demographic, the orders are quite astonishing in that the 14 car is the clear leader, but all the rest are very equal, suggesting that its been pitched , set wise, correctly. However consideration is being given to a shorter set with black cab front windows as there has been demand for it.

 

Packaging is in hand, as is the price as we have had to ask China for it, bearing in mind this has grown from an N gauge project at the outset.

 

Gearing is for a max speed of 140mph down to a crawl

 

As for the coupling, it's planned to have a single decoder and the train should have through wiring, making putting on the track and removing it, NOT a 30 second exercise, but then with 'no gap' close coupling, tilting, through wiring etc you wouldn't really expect it to be quick.

 

I'm sorry your not confident at the minute, but rest assured you aren't being charged until the threshold to design and tool is in place, so could place an order at this time to support the project.

 

hope this helps if only a little

cheers

Dave

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To echo Legend's comments -

 

There are mixed views on the haulage of the 71's - some say slow and sluggish whilst others say it performs admirably with typlical TRAINSET length and weight trains. Let's face it, unless you have a whitemetal bodied - lead crammed chassis, do you really expect anything to haul the full Dover boat train or Golden Arrow set at a scale 80mph? No....

 

All the APT needs to do realistically is have each powercar able to push / pull six coaches at a scale speed with power to spare, making the dual powered 14 car set a piece of cake on prototypical curves. Regardless of how powerful the motor, the lateral forces involved with 2nd radius curves and a 14 coach train will result in strain and a reduction in speed.

 

In terms of the actual drivetrain, the J94 and 14XX have reportedly (that's the key word) suffered from low quality gearing components. Not being in possession of one myself I can't comment, but with the requirement that the APT-P will need to scale my 2% gradients without cogging, I will happily pay extra to ensure matched sets of brass cogs are fitted to the power car(s).

 

This is not me 'having a go', this is me understanding that there are learning curves in model design and engineering, especially in the chassis department and that it can be a rocky road for a new manufacturer coming to market. The complaints I've seen have been few, but those few are substantial and with the outlay that we'd be committing to our APT-P sets, naturally I'd want the running quality to be top notch and the mechanism to be of proven design, with the only new ground to be broken being the tilt mechanism, which IIRC should work differently to that in the Rapido APT-E as both P and E trains had different mountings for the tilt packs.

 

I can't comment on the coreless motor debate, but I do run DCC so would probably be a benefit to me, but a large portion of the target market will be DC only.

 

Cheers,

60800

Edited by 60800
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Actually, funny you should mention speed reduction.

 

I was trying to explain the forces involved and why a 2 power car heavy chassis unit in thecapt 14 car consist might be needed to a gent at Warley, but I don’t think I explained it properly.

 

With any curve and long model train you get resistance, with reverse curves it’s worse, add gradients, then gradients with curves it’s a real pain. So where it’s a long APT set it will be 2 x motorised power cars in the formation. A case of ‘belt and braces’, as my tailor told me as I tried on some new trousers. ;-)

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Actually, funny you should mention speed reduction.

 

I was trying to explain the forces involved and why a 2 power car heavy chassis unit in thecapt 14 car consist might be needed to a gent at Warley, but I don’t think I explained it properly.

 

With any curve and long model train you get resistance, with reverse curves it’s worse, add gradients, then gradients with curves it’s a real pain. So where it’s a long APT set it will be 2 x motorised power cars in the formation. A case of ‘belt and braces’, as my tailor told me as I tried on some new trousers. ;-)

It's a rather difficult thing to explain without a working representation to hand - I've found that the force of a sharp curve can be more detrimental than a change in gradient

 

Cheers,

60800

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Should pop a powered bogie in each half train under the front cab and this might help with pushing on as noted elsewhere trainsets?

With articulation would it possible to power the leading bogie and the first shared bogie with an underfloor motor? You could then have dummy power cars ?  Off now to get my coat...

 

Robert  

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Thanks for the reply Dave. Not sure about disconnecting my electronic track cleaners as my other 100 or so locos run fine and I seldom have to clean the track. However if you announce a black windscreen 6 car one I’ll sign up , full tilt so to speak. Amazed at people ordering all 14 cars . One at the size of layout needed to accommodate the train and secondly at the huge disposable income around.

Edited by Legend

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Could some explain in as much detail as they have gleaned what car types are being proposed (in OO) and what formations are available in the set options proposed?  Sorry to be so thick, but I just can't get my head around it?

HI http://www.apt-p.com/APTConfigurations.htm should answer questions on formations of the real thing and hopefully therefore the model. The whole website is a gold mine of pictures and information

Robert 

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The size of the power cars (about that of a class 52 Western) should enough space for weight and big motor and still leave space for DCC gubbins.

 

Two power cars should push pull a 14 car train through anything.

 

I would be more concerned on couplings between power cars and coaches as there no articulated bogies. These would need lock in place, yet have a close coupling system that works as well in compression as in tension while pushing/dragging the heavy through curves and gradients at high speeds and remain easy to put together and take apart (with doubtless DCC electrical connections).

Not impossible but needs to be thought through and have some working prototypes.

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