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OO gauge Crowdfunded APT-P (Warley announcement)


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I've received a press release from DJM about the OO/4mm ATP. There's nothing mentioned as embargoed in it so here is the gist of it. 

 

A number of the latest cad/cam images were included.

 

It is still available to order on the website. The sets are being made strictly to order and, as Dave does not see a demand to produce further sets at a later date, it will be a one-off model production.

 

He expects a finished 6 car APT cad/cam within around 60 days and, if all goes well, it will go to tooling shortly afterwards.

 

HTH.

 

 

 

G

The embargo bit was in the covering email but I agree it's a bit much!

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I know a paraphrase, but why on earth would such information only be for existing subscribers? Surely that is intended for the wider audience?

 

 

 

It is still available to order on the website. The sets are being made strictly to order and, as Dave does not see a demand to produce further sets at a later date, it will be a one-off model production.

 

 

Edited by Claude_Dreyfus
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Dave will want those who have invested in the model to have any news first, some of whom may not be on-line.

 

I'd have to ask how they ordered or knew about the project.

 

I understand those who subscribe getting an email, but I would have thought that after just a couple of days it ought to be on the website, how else do you drum up orders if you don't.

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E mails to the converted. Advertising to those not yet converted could decide to purchase thus bringing in more business.

 

I'm having difficulty understanding Dave's approach. Yes there are some smart asses who made life difficult for Dave on this forum but IMHO he would be better continuing with updates on here.

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I'd have to ask how they ordered or knew about the project.

 

I understand those who subscribe getting an email, but I would have thought that after just a couple of days it ought to be on the website, how else do you drum up orders if you don't.

Furthermore an email probably isn’t that useful for those not online...!
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I'd have to ask how they ordered or knew about the project.

 

I understand those who subscribe getting an email, but I would have thought that after just a couple of days it ought to be on the website, how else do you drum up orders if you don't.

 

Some people were seen placing orders at the shows.

At the same time, maybe he does not want to drum up too many extra orders. Managaing customers consumes time and too many could mean his resources stretched whereby 1) he is focussed on them instead of the project 2) we all saw how the forum exploded when locomotion could not cope with customer mails following delivery issues with the Stirling Single. 

Edited by JSpencer
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Some people were seen placing orders at the shows.

At the same time, maybe he does not want to drum up too many extra orders. Managaing customers consumes time and too many could mean his resources stretched whereby 1) he is focussed on them instead of the project 2) we all saw how the forum exploded when locomotion could not cope with customer mails following delivery issues with the Stirling Single.

 

I thought he was still short of the target so he does need more orders.

Mark

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the project needed 300 product 'expressions' converted to orders.

like i said, i am confident this will happen, but may take time.

after all, the initial 'spurt' last time went quiet and then picked up....... almost 'ebbing and flowing' as it progressed, can usually account for this ebbing and flowing by holidays, christmas, job changes, other more important bills to pay etc.

Yep here it is 300 orders required was standing at 168 back in september

Mark

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If he really is short, and only one person knows, then he has three choices:

1) cancel the project

2) wait until the order book is full risking loss of some existing orders plus rising prices

3) purchase the balance on his own account and look to release them profitably to the market on and 'as and when' basis

 

It also depends on the factory - a fourth alternative is to persuade the factory to produce fewer units and pass the fixed cost onto those who have subscribed.

 

David

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Hi Grahame

 

You obviously did not read the covering email closely, it said "Although I have, this morning sent the images, to all the magazines, i would appreciate you keeping the newsletter to yourself for 2 weeks to give everyone a chance to read, and digest before i post the newsletter to the DJM web site."

 

Dave will want those who have invested in the model to have any news first, some of whom may not be on-line, before it is made widely known and possibly incorrectly passed on.  In the light of past experience, the request for a two week delay is understandable.

 

Best wishes

 

Roddy

 

PS My version of the news letter did not mention 60 days?

 

Ah, you obviously didn't read my post closely - I got a press release, not a newsletter with a covering email, so there was no mention of an embargo.

 

The embargo bit was in the covering email but I agree it's a bit much!

 

See above.

 

G.

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Ah, you obviously didn't read my post closely - I got a press release, not a newsletter with a covering email, so there was no mention of an embargo.

 

 

See above.

 

G.

Sorry Grahame, I didn't appreciate that you had got a press release which was different to that received by subscribers. 

 

Please accept my apology.

 

Best wishes

Roddy

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Yep here it is 300 orders required was standing at 168 back in september

Mark

 

Is that for all or just the 14 car versions?

 

300 at an average of £700 a train (depending on 5,6,7,10,or 14 car) equates to 210K. I would not be surpirised if it was barely enough for development and  tooling let alone production. Oops we need to take off at least 40K just for VAT.

 

If he has now moved to the next steps, then he must have filled that gap or he is hoping it will bring on board extra people to fill the final gap. The problem with the second is Promotion. A few shows and word of mouth won't be enough.

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Some people were seen placing orders at the shows.

At the same time, maybe he does not want to drum up too many extra orders. Managaing customers consumes time and too many could mean his resources stretched whereby 1) he is focussed on them instead of the project 2) we all saw how the forum exploded when locomotion could not cope with customer mails following delivery issues with the Stirling Single. 

 

But more orders results in more money for Dave, and thus more funds to try and move back to producing his own products instead of relying on crowdsourcing.

 

Regarding the current issue regarding the embargoes, it is certainly an option to give people who have put up money an exclusive period as a "reward", though I suspect most of them would happily give up that reward if it meant the difference between a model going ahead or having to be cancelled due to the inability to meet the minimum numbers.

 

But even if you maintain the reward you have to put up the post on your website when that exclusive period ends.

 

I would also argue that 2 weeks is far too long, and it should be around 2 days so that the subscribers are still interested in the news when it can be discussed publicly.

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Speculating on what happens inside DJM is a bit like the old Kremlinology of the cold war, presumably there is a logic to it all somewhere but it's a mystery to the rest of the world.

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Speculating on what happens inside DJM is a bit like the old Kremlinology of the cold war, presumably there is a logic to it all somewhere but it's a mystery to the rest of the world.

Which I guess is little different to speculating about, say, interactions between different parts of the Bachmann / Kader group. It’s not really our business, is it?

 

FWIW I thought Dave’s previous web presence was becoming unhelpful - both because he seems to really rile some people on here, and because he couldn’t resist making what (to me) were tacky jabs at some of his competitors. The otherwise odd silence seems to be the least-worst option right now.

 

I’ve paid him some crowd-funding money, largely on the basis that I wrote it off as soon as I did so, and any model at the end of the process would be a pleasant surprise. I look forward to seeing what happens.

 

Paul

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Which I guess is little different to speculating about, say, interactions between different parts of the Bachmann / Kader group. It’s not really our business, is it?

 

FWIW I thought Dave’s previous web presence was becoming unhelpful - both because he seems to really rile some people on here, and because he couldn’t resist making what (to me) were tacky jabs at some of his competitors. The otherwise odd silence seems to be the least-worst option right now.

 

I’ve paid him some crowd-funding money, largely on the basis that I wrote it off as soon as I did so, and any model at the end of the process would be a pleasant surprise. I look forward to seeing what happens.

 

Paul

 

The essential difference is that Kader (and Hornby, Dapol etc) arrange their own finance and carry their own risk so their internal affairs are indeed none of our business (well, unless we also happen to be a shareholder). In the case of DJM the company appears to be reliant on purchasers providing product development funding up front using the crowd funding model up front and it is purchasers carrying the risk. The legal position in England and Wales would appear to grant those supporting crowd funding the same protection as a regular purchaser, but that assumes the company will be in a position to repay. Given that I think it is fair enough for potential purchasers to be informed of how the company operates. And aside from that, it seems to be a bit of a mess in terms of basic communication with potential customers and generating interest in projects.

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It will be interesting to read back over this thread in a year or so's time.

If Dave is successful in producing this model I wonder how many of those who have been so negative about DJM and his business practices and not prepared to put money into it will be bemoaning the fact that they missed the boat and cant get their hands on one ? I'm guessing (purely my own theory) that Dave has got to a point where CAD is just about finished, A 3D ? Sample will soon be in his hands to show at exhibitions,

Magazine advertising is probably in the offing (if he is sending them promotional images) So once it is ready for tooling and he just needs final numbers to give to the factory it will be 'put up or miss out' I would love one and if I had the cash to speculate I wouldn't hesitate. I cant take it with me when I pop me clogs so why not ? I Imagine he has chosen to ignore the small but vociferous number on here who make a lot of noise but aren't going to buy and is putting time and effort into producing the bloody thing ! All the best to DJM I hope you pull it off mate

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But more orders results in more money for Dave, and thus more funds to try and move back to producing his own products instead of relying on crowdsourcing.

 

Regarding the current issue regarding the embargoes, it is certainly an option to give people who have put up money an exclusive period as a "reward", though I suspect most of them would happily give up that reward if it meant the difference between a model going ahead or having to be cancelled due to the inability to meet the minimum numbers.

 

But even if you maintain the reward you have to put up the post on your website when that exclusive period ends.

 

I would also argue that 2 weeks is far too long, and it should be around 2 days so that the subscribers are still interested in the news when it can be discussed publicly.

 

I certainly do not disagree with that. in these projects, he seems to be managing just a few hundred or several hundred customers which should be easy for a 1 man band. And yes, it would certainly make sense to have more (even twice the figure), if only to have a safety margin to ensure the project succeed. Of course I'm saying this based on the odd bit of info here and the king thread that "hint" there really are quite low figures involved in crowdfunding.......

 

It becomes more complex if he has 4000 customers per project, chasing all those whom have not paid on time etc, noting who has done what when, not to mention a regular number of questions. He could quite quickly find his resources swamped trying to cope with that alone. So some balance is required.

 

Maybe the 2 week embargo is to ensure those who rile him, will have lost interest by the time it appears. Maybe he believes that people are either for or against him (cert. some are) and not that most people are potential customers. Again I'm speculating.

His promotion hopes could also be riding on the press release he just made, that could work, each magazine has a readership of about 30,000 people - but he is then at the digression of the editors as to whether or not what he sent is news worthy. At the same time, there could be other promotion efforts which we won't see until they are released.

Edited by JSpencer
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It will be interesting to read back over this thread in a year or so's time.

If Dave is successful in producing this model I wonder how many of those who have been so negative about DJM and his business practices and not prepared to put money into it will be bemoaning the fact that they missed the boat and cant get their hands on one ? I'm guessing (purely my own theory) that Dave has got to a point where CAD is just about finished, A 3D ? Sample will soon be in his hands to show at exhibitions,

Magazine advertising is probably in the offing (if he is sending them promotional images) So once it is ready for tooling and he just needs final numbers to give to the factory it will be 'put up or miss out' I would love one and if I had the cash to speculate I wouldn't hesitate. I cant take it with me when I pop me clogs so why not ? I Imagine he has chosen to ignore the small but vociferous number on here who make a lot of noise but aren't going to buy and is putting time and effort into producing the bloody thing ! All the best to DJM I hope you pull it off mate

I hope so too. With possibly so few made due to it being maybe a riskier investment, the return from selling on, on a well known auction site could be quite substantial. If it's such a success, I would not be surprised to see a retailer commission a further run.

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His promotion hopes could also be riding on the press release he just made, that could work, each magazine has a readership of about 30,000 people - but he is then at the digression of the editors as to whether or not what he sent is news worthy. At the same time, there could be other promotion efforts which we won't see until they are released.

 

 

My subs copy of BRM came today, there was nothing in the news section or new releases for the APT, King etc, but there is a quarter page advert on page 127 for an 'N' gauge J94 (pre-order and EOI)

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I’m just amiddle aged cynic...

 

A 3D print is just a cad file sent to a 3D printer

Until i see the tooling smashed to pieces, then someone at somepoint can press more models out of it.

 

Its the bits inbetween those events that convince me.

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I’m just amiddle aged cynic...

 

A 3D print is just a cad file sent to a 3D printer

Until i see the tooling smashed to pieces, then someone at somepoint can press more models out of it.

 

Its the bits inbetween those events that convince me.

 

It does not even need to be a CAD file. It could be files from the scans that were tidied up. The engineering CADs can be used to test individual parts which will eventually be tooled, look right and fit togethor (Hornby Bulleid coach is an example of this). Prints of the scans can used to ensure the scans themselves respect dimensions and look correct prior to doing CAD work. People who the scan are not the same people will do the CADs here, so DJM would need to spend more time ensuring the scans are perfect prior to doing the CADs.

 

I agree scans, CADs and 3D prints are the cheap(ish) early stages. Tooling is the big step. 

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