OO gauge Crowdfunded APT-P (Warley announcement)

[JSpencer]

15 minutes ago, mdvle said:

 

If that is his reasoning, then I am reminded of the phrase "before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig 2 graves"

 

However, I think regardless it is reasonably safe to guess that there won't be any more crowdfunding after these projects.

 

To be honest, I don't believe that is his reasoning. It is doubtless as he states, to allow the crowdfunders two weeks to digest the news. In practice you cannot really punish a market or rather trying to do so, would be very counter productive.

The only way he is likely to get any more corwdfunding off the ground will depend heavily on the success of the current ones. A failure of just one with people left out of pocket would kill his entire company. He cannot start others now as people on existing ones will wonder what is happening with their product. So he is quite correct to focus on these and get them progressing.

[Roddy Angus]

43 minutes ago, JSpencer said:

 

To be honest, I don't believe that is his reasoning. It is doubtless as he states, to allow the crowdfunders two weeks to digest the news. In practice you cannot really punish a market or rather trying to do so, would be very counter productive.

 

Why then, if you did not believe that punishing naughty children was "his reasononing", did you post it?

[JSpencer]

42 minutes ago, Roddy Angus said:

 

Why then, if you did not believe that punishing naughty children was "his reasononing", did you post it?

Because I have a very dark sense of humour. Each time a letter is sent, it starts a horrible cycle on this thread that cannot serve as any possible postive marketing strategy for any business. Most companies post the letters live no later than 2 days after. So yes, some potential customers might get  a feeling of being "punished" with it being held for 2 weeks. I doubt that is the purpose, but this is not really a strategy which brings in customers in the long term. The "you are either in" or "out" argument we sometimes see here is so devisive and political that it can only be bad for business.

Rails could have stuck the Hornby Terriers at fall RRP but they remain competative and use communication to highlight the points of their exclusive product vs the competition which they equally sell. How many loyal customers would they loose if they start going "sorry you have to pay more for the Hornby one"?

 

Remember the customer is the only person who can fire everyone in a company from the highest director to the lowest member of staff, simply by taking their money elsewhere. We don't care about being pro this and against that, we just expect to see a product to a certain standard for the value we pay and after sales service that goes with it. If we have to play games and leap through hoops to get there, then I'm not playing.

[Colin_McLeod]

I have asked Dave if he would permit me to publish the newsletter on RMweb and I have explained why I believe that would be helpful and why I believe the current approach is unhelpful.

 

Note that I have no connection with DJmodels apart from being a crowdfunder in the APT-P project and would be glad to see my investment copper fastened by an increase in customers rather than being the subject of negative comments that the current approach causes.

[JDW]

I've not said anything before, but am I the only one reading this thinking "it's just a model train"?  At the end of the day, it's not the end of the world if those who have invested or expressed an interest in something get news a bit before everyone else, nor is it going to cause a world war if some people don't know straight away what someone else knows.  It's hardly "punishment", and whether you agree with it or not, if that's how the manufacturer wishes to comunicate then so be it.  The speed of progress is pretty slow anyway, I seriously doubt anyone is going to decide to buy (or not to) on the strength of reading a newsletter a week or two after someone else read it (assuming that everyone sees it on Day 1 anyway, some might not see it til Day 14...).  I get the impression that we are just trying to create things to froth about to either fill the time until there is more news, or just for the sake of saying something.  If you've ordered one, you've probably read the letter, and know whats happening.  If you haven't ordered one and want one, you'll likely hear soon enough when it's released anyway, and no amount of froth will make it happen sooner or at all.  It's a toy train.  You'll get it if you want it when it appears, no sooner.  And if you're concerned at not knowing something trivial straight away, or missing out on a model, order one and get a newsletter.  If you don't want one, it doesn't matter.

 

It's almost as bad as some other threads with people jumping up and down to know when a manufacturer will release a new tooling in X Y or Z livery, before they've even had chance to make, deliver and sell the first version(s).  It'll happen when it happens.

[Colin_McLeod]

1 It's a model, not a toy train

2 I should not have risen to the " toy train" troll remark

3 We are talking about an investment that could turn sour thanks to negative comments, so Yes, it is important that the management of our money and associated publicity and image is handled in a correct and professional manner. 

4 It is not the same as waiting for a new release from Hornby or Bachmann. I have not invested any funds in them.

5 Dave's approach is feeding the trolls.

 

Edited March 28, 2019 by Colin_McLeod
Typo

[Legend]

It’s just a model train but rather a lot of money. 

[JDW]

2 hours ago, Colin_McLeod said:

1 It's a model, not a toy train

2 I should not have risen to the " toy train" troll remark

3 We are talking about an investment that could turn sour thanks to negative comments, so Yes, it is important that the management of our money and associated publicity and image is handled in a correct and professional manner. 

4 It is not the same as waiting for a new release from Hornby or Bachmann. I have not invested any funds in them.

5 Dave's approach is feeding the trolls.

 

 

Yes, the toy train remark was deliberately exaggerated to make a point.  I also used the phrase model train, as I'm sure you noticed.  

Yes, it could, but pages of discussion about who read the email first won't change that.  Those who have invested should get the email so you know how it's progressing and can keep an eye on your investment.  If those who haven't invested have to wait a few days to see whats happening, it's not the end of the world, no one will die, and it will likely make little difference to whether or not they decide to invest/purchase.  

The trolls are feeding the trolls with endless froth.  I've never met or dealt with Dave.  His approach doesn't seem as professional as some, and maybe he could do with some help, but again, re-hashing the same points page after page won't really change that, it's a fair guess that either he's aware of what is said and ignores it, or doesn't read this in which case it's irrelevant.  

It will arrive when it arrives, if you don't think it will, don't invest, or cancel your order.  Otherwise, surely the best thing to do is let him get on with it, and provide constructive feedback as and when necessary.  If he's asked those who have received the email two weeks in advance of general release (maybe they get it early, rather than others get it late?  Or should magazine purchasers get upset when they only get their copy on Wednesday, but their mate who subscribes got it on Tuesday?) for whatever reason, right or wrong, maybe they should just respect that rather than a big discussion about whether they should post it here for the benefit of people who haven't invested but can't wait a fortnight?

[Ouroborus]

44 minutes ago, JDW said:

 

The trolls are feeding the trolls with endless froth.  

 

I think you'll find that this thread had been quiet for the best part of three weeks until an *investor* posted earlier this week that they'd received an email.  

[adb968008]

Go on i’ll break ranks...

 

the high point of the email in my mind was a discovery that the drivers side window  glass wasn't flat, but had designed in curves, horizontally and vertically, and Ive concluded it must have cost BR a fortune to design and custom make.

 

so there it is, shoot me for sharing it 9 days before watershed.

Edited March 28, 2019 by adb968008

[Colin_McLeod]

One other point made in the newsletter was that an error in the placement of the headlights is being corrected. The headlights had been fixed to the buffer beam instead of the inside of the lifting nose.

[njee20]

JDW - if you’re going to go down the “it’s only toy trains” route (which I do agree with) then you render this entire forum totally superfluous. You’re right of course, it is in the grand scheme of things. No one’s said it’s about life or death, but you’re effectively saying no one can ever express any passion about anything, because it’s “just toy trains”.

 

If Dave stuck to his arbitrary 2 weeks then it would be less crazy, but he doesn’t, updates never make it onto his site. Again, in the grand scheme of things this obviously doesn’t matter children starving, natural disasters, yada yada yada.

 

For me Dave’s credibility is very poor, to the extent that I have no desire presently to fund any of his crowdfunded projects despite wanting 2 of the resulting models. I want to see tangible progress, then I may be encouraged to part with my money to help bring the project to fruition, this is in everyone’s interest. So yes, for me stupid embargoes which serve no positive purpose but drive lots of negativity are really damaging.

 

Dave appears to be good at designing models but pretty bad at running a business. I need convincing otherwise, or I’ll be waiting until I can see and touch models before I buy, and I’m increasingly unconvinced that’ll ever happen (with the caveat that I’m interested in the N gauge models, which are the neglected step-children in the family!). A good way to convince me (and others) otherwise is to share regular progress with everyone. Not a select few. And if he can’t do something as trivial as put an update on his own website I can’t trust him with thousands of pounds of my money for a totally indeterminate period of time. 

 

[Legend]

9 hours ago, JDW said:

 

Yes, the toy train remark was deliberately exaggerated to make a point.  I also used the phrase model train, as I'm sure you noticed.  

Yes, it could, but pages of discussion about who read the email first won't change that.  Those who have invested should get the email so you know how it's progressing and can keep an eye on your investment.  If those who haven't invested have to wait a few days to see whats happening, it's not the end of the world, no one will die, and it will likely make little difference to whether or not they decide to invest/purchase.  

The trolls are feeding the trolls with endless froth.  I've never met or dealt with Dave.  His approach doesn't seem as professional as some, and maybe he could do with some help, but again, re-hashing the same points page after page won't really change that, it's a fair guess that either he's aware of what is said and ignores it, or doesn't read this in which case it's irrelevant.  

It will arrive when it arrives, if you don't think it will, don't invest, or cancel your order.  Otherwise, surely the best thing to do is let him get on with it, and provide constructive feedback as and when necessary.  If he's asked those who have received the email two weeks in advance of general release (maybe they get it early, rather than others get it late?  Or should magazine purchasers get upset when they only get their copy on Wednesday, but their mate who subscribes got it on Tuesday?) for whatever reason, right or wrong, maybe they should just respect that rather than a big discussion about whether they should post it here for the benefit of people who haven't invested but can't wait a fortnight?

 

The issue is that it’s not just your actions that count, paying deposit, cancelling order etc , but the actions of others that can boost the project or put the project at risk. As such updates are important . People get worried when there is a void . Simple as that . Now Dave may feel he is communicating direct with investors , but we know some people get update others don’t .   A clear concise communication is what is required. 2 weeks is also far too long between making announcement and making it public.   With crowdfunding there are actually 2 aspects , there’s updates on the model CADs etc , but there’s also updates on the projects viability . It should be an open book, and it isn’t. 

[Colin_McLeod]

Newsletter #4 is now on website. Dave have just told me that issue #5 will now be public on Sunday.

 

 

 

Edited March 29, 2019 by Colin_McLeod

[Great Western]

Is the order book still open, so he still wants orders but starves potential customers of information ? 

 

It just doesn’t make any sense at all

Edited March 29, 2019 by Great Western

[Colin_McLeod]

Yes the order book is still open. Go to DJmodels website where an order can be easily placed.

 

Enjoy. 

[Colin_McLeod]

For those hungry for information so that they can place an order here is Newsletters 1 to 4.  No 5 is being released on Sunday according to Dave.

 

No1

OO gauge APT project update newsletter 1.docx

 

No2

OO gauge APT Project Update newsletter 2.pdf

 

No3

OO-gauge-APT-Project-Update-newsletter-3-1.pdf

 

No4

OO Gauge APT Newsletter Update _4.pdf

 

 

Edited March 29, 2019 by Colin_McLeod

[oleander]

on the news letter when it is sent out in email ,is it an email were every ones email add is on it or just yours. I have not recived an update yet but I can happly wait till sunday and read it on the website .

 

Question has there been an info on two areas of the models.

1 how the cars will conect togeather. The Hornby model was not to bad. I have a brand new bullet train 9 cars long and thats a pig to get on and off the track.

2 the tilting . will it be like Hornby were it was mechanical or are they going down the servo route ?

 

john

[96701]

On 27/03/2019 at 21:51, Great Western said:

Why doesn’t someone who has the newsletter just post it ? 

 

Your not under any any legal obligation not to surely, DJ isn’t going to cancel your order is he? 

 

It’s a toy train, albeit a very expensive one it’s not state secrets ! 

 

All this secert for two weeks nonsense just pushes potential future customers further and further away.

 

On 27/03/2019 at 23:20, mdvle said:

 

The irony is anyone who just posts it would probably be doing the project a favour given the lack of website updates at the 2 week point...

 

On 28/03/2019 at 10:57, JSpencer said:

 

Ah, but how else is he supposed to punish all of us naughty children who did not join the program if it was posted right away? Next time there is a DJM crowdfunding project, you had better join in quick or else you will miss the newsletters.

 

On 28/03/2019 at 11:11, adb968008 said:

 

if there was a major developments you can be sure someone would “leak” something, and this thread would be over flowing with excitement.

 

The absence of froth, means the water isnt boiling, the mail therefore wasnt that exciting. That said Kernows/Olivias “secret” emails are held pretty tightly too, but theres carrots, rather than sticks in those mails to do so.

 

Can I refer you to my previous posts about common decency?

[adb968008]

47 minutes ago, 96701 said:

Can I refer you to my previous posts about common decency?

Do you mean this one below, which leaks the subject of Daves email but asks us all not to leak it out of decency ?

On ‎26‎/‎03‎/‎2019 at 20:32, 96701 said:

The newsletter discusses the window to the side of the cab, the nose, bogies and the cab Interior and finishes with the following statement:

As ever, please remember that this newsletter goes out to

you as a customer, and will not go straight out for public

consumption until 2 or so weeks have passed. This is to play

fair with all crowdfunders who may not get access to this

newsletter as soon as you may have done.

 

No subterfuge, no secrecy, just common decency.

 

Edited March 29, 2019 by adb968008

[jjb1970]

13 hours ago, oleander said:

on the news letter when it is sent out in email ,is it an email were every ones email add is on it or just yours. I have not recived an update yet but I can happly wait till sunday and read it on the website .

 

Question has there been an info on two areas of the models.

1 how the cars will conect togeather. The Hornby model was not to bad. I have a brand new bullet train 9 cars long and thats a pig to get on and off the track.

2 the tilting . will it be like Hornby were it was mechanical or are they going down the servo route ?

 

john

 

I'd be amazed if anybody would try using servos, that'd need a control system and servos in every vehicle, Very expensive and complicated, doable no doubt if you wanted to but a simple mechanical system will do the job for a miniscule fraction of the price.

[Colin_McLeod]

I asked Dave last night and he advised as follows:

 

The model will tilt to around 7 degrees, and a mechanism has already been designed but not released until testing is complete.

 

Car connections will be linked to this tilt mechanism.

 

 

[Ouroborus]

21 minutes ago, Colin_McLeod said:

I asked Dave last night and he advised as follows:

 

The model will tilt to around 7 degrees, and a mechanism has already been designed but not released until testing is complete.

 

Car connections will be linked to this tilt mechanism.

 

 

 

Whilst you have Dave's ear, could I trouble you to ask him about the front cabside window.  The reason I ask is there is a photo on the Alamy website which shows the window as a very neat isoceles triangle, symmetrical through its longest length.  In other images, the window appears as a four sided shape, almost a triangle, but not quite, with different radius corners

[Colin_McLeod]

55 minutes ago, Ouroborus said:

 

Whilst you have Dave's ear, could I trouble you to ask him about the front cabside window.  The reason I ask is there is a photo on the Alamy website which shows the window as a very neat isoceles triangle, symmetrical through its longest length.  In other images, the window appears as a four sided shape, almost a triangle, but not quite, with different radius corners

 

EVERYONE has Dave's ear if you e mail him on info@djmodels.co.uk with your technical question.  Its much quicker than yet another debate on RMweb.

 

I don't want to become Dave's unpaid secretary so I would respectfully ask you all to send your queries direct.  You could also do what I did regarding the tilting mechanism query and puts Dave's reply on here for everyone to see.

[Markwj]

Maybe we should all send the questions to Dave but not post the response here to avoid doing Dave's job for him and becoming his personal secretaries. If he gets enough requests for info then maybe he will come here and post himself or at least promptly post a newsletter on his site with the answers to the many questions.