OO gauge Crowdfunded APT-P (Warley announcement)

[Fenman]

The second version of the Blue Pullman is itself way overpriced so does not make a fair comparison.

 

Well, now I'm intrigued: I'm assuming you have done the calculations to tell us what the "correct" price for a Blue Pullman should be? I'd love to see your working-out.

 

 

...

The £600 price tag quoted by Olivias  is full retail for the 00 one, with 15% permitted discount the price comes down to £509.96 and that's the price most will pay, nearly £200 less than the 6 car APT. This is a fully commercial product with profit margin built in throughout the supply chain.

 

Given that crowd funded ventures are supposed to provide some kind of financial incentive to the subscribers it suggests that a comparable retail price would be somewhat higher than £700, unless of course this product is priced with fully commercial profit margins built in for those involved in it's production (not a criticism just an observation).

...

 

I'm not sure all crowd-funded ventures work in the way you suggest: some are designed to get to market products which, without crowd-funding, would be considered too risky by manufacturers/commissioners. I'm assuming that Hornby (which we know gave the APT-P the once-over a couple of years ago) decided the economics didn't work. Rapido hasn't followed-up their APT-E with a P, either. That's telling us something, I think.

 

We also know nothing about run sizes for these products; and the thing I find fascinating with this thread is how people are immediately demanding more and more variants - and complexity will add cost. Others are demanding that coaches should be sold as individual items, risking stock being left unsold (and increased risk leads to increased price), while others are simply saying it's already too expensive (by which I assume they mean too expensive for them).

 

I'm thrilled someone is contemplating producing an APT-P, to modern standards. I would love to have one, and I'm prepared to pay the price premium this product has attracted to get it. I don't *need* it - then again, I don't need any model trains. But I'd like to have it. 

 

Paul

[DJM Dave]

Hi Paul

 

The £600 price tag quoted by Olivias  is full retail for the 00 one, with 15% permitted discount the price comes down to £509.96 and that's the price most will pay, nearly £200 less than the 6 car APT. This is a fully commercial product with profit margin built in throughout the supply chain.

 

Given that crowd funded ventures are supposed to provide some kind of financial incentive to the subscribers it suggests that a comparable retail price would be somewhat higher than £700, unless of course this product is priced with fully commercial profit margins built in for those involved in it's production (not a criticism just an observation).

 

Regards

 

Roy

Hi Roy,

 

Great mail as always. 509.96 for a 6 car Pullman (though admittedly a beautiful model) but probably with tooling amortised a while ago.

 

It’s an interesting comparison, as the 14 car APT-P is under a grand (yes not much), so your getting 2 cars more than the Pullman, and tooling needs to be paid fro from scratch.

 

Comparisons, will however, always be made, from the exclusive model 67 in N gauge at 600 notes, to the Fulgurex Swiss electric at 700 notes, etc.

 

I suppose its what one can afford, and what someone really wants.

I se it at not having a long window regarding sales, and as such may only get, revisited every xxx years, if at all.

Not sure there will be that big a market after the crowdfunded models have gotten out there, and the model must wash it’s face financially for tooling, unit price, design, shipping, VAT (yuck), testing, bespoke box, laser scanning etc.

 

If we can emulate the Pullman in quality and finesse, then i’d Say we have achieved what i thought would be almost impossible. But what are we if we don’t have ambitions huh?

 

As an aside, but probably interesting nonetheless, i have already contracted (pending successful crowdfunding) the motorised chassis manufacturer, who i cannot name for obvious reasons at present, but will say, to give you all a froth fest, lol, that they have produced some of the most reliable chassis / motor designs in HO and N gauge we have yet seen on RTR model railway locomotives.

 

Cheers

Dave

[Roy Langridge]

I really don’t know what to do. I had planned on a 7 car set, but depending on the answers to JSpencer’s questions above I may go to the full 14 car set. I can’t run it now, but who knows what the future brings. I would hate to regret not getting a full set...

Roy

Edited December 4, 2017 by Roy Langridge

[DJM Dave]

Hi Dave and DToS,

 

Thanks for the nice project. But I have some questions below that I feel others may be asking the same so I post them here.

 

Of the sets, the 14 car brings the best value. I was thinking of getting the 10 car set but for just £100 more, yet get 4 extra coaches and limitless possibilities. However it is lot to spend in one year.

 

So:

1/ I think payment is in 4 parts. Is that correct please?

A) i believe so, yes.

2/ Are the 4 parts equal ?

A) The biggest part will be the tooling, and i will talk to the factory about doing it in 2 parts, but envisage the whole thing being funded in 4 payments

 

3/ Over what time period are we anticipating the project to run?

A) 18 months would be ideal, but think realistically 2 years, but it depends on crowdfunding. If the orders come in quickly we could be laser scanning in January.

My guess here would be at least 2 years (looking at the Rapido APT-E), and maybe 3...

4/ So does that mean payment is spread evenly across the time period?

 

A) No, not necessarily as the tooling is probably the most ever for an RTR OO model, but the project is a big one anyway. 

It definitely wont be a 1 year project, that's for sure!

 

Cheers

Dave

[Colin_McLeod]

Well, now I'm intrigued: I'm assuming you have done the calculations to tell us what the "correct" price for a Blue Pullman should be? I'd love to see your working-out.

 

 

Paul

Paul I don't normally respond to requests like this but in your case I will make an exception.

 

I looked up the blue book, then made adjustments for the assumed fact that the first version had already covered set up costs and that the second version appears to be priced high to take full advantage of the umpredicted popularity of the Blue Pullman. I then applied my own biased coefficients to reflect my own preparedness to spend £x on a train.

Hence applying all of the above I came to the personal conclusion that the second Blue Pullman was overpriced and therefore not a fair comparator for the APT-P.

 

I made no observation at all regarding the price of the APT-P but it is expensive. As to value for money that is a different question that I make no attempt to answer.

 

Colin.

[Scottish-Exile]

Don't fret about the price guys. The APT will pay for itself

 

[Waverley West]

Have sent email requesting swap from 7 car plain front to 7 car black front as system does not seem to let me cancel and re order. Hope this ok cheers

Mark

 

What is the setup for anyone who wants to change their order? I could still be tempted by a 10-car set... (having already ordered a 7-car one).

[60800]

What is the setup for anyone who wants to change their order? I could still be tempted by a 10-car set... (having already ordered a 7-car one).

What I was asked to do is make a new order for the set you want, email Mick and tell him your new order number and to cancel the old order number

 

Cheers,

60800

[PaulCheffus]

I really don’t know what to do. I had planned on a 7 car set, but depending on the answers to JSpencer’s questions above I may fo to the full 14 car set. I can’t run it now, but who knows what the future brings. I would hate to regret not getting a full set...

Roy

Hi

 

My personal view is to go for the full set. This way you can always run shorter formations and if you get the opportunity you have everything already for the whole train. This is how I looked at the Pendolino when offered and what I will probably order for the APT-P.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[Sam Moss]

Nothing wrong with DJM packaging to date.

 

Looking at the Rapido 4 car set, the DJM one is going to be a very big box. Where can I hide it?

 

Judging that you can't get the Austerities back in the boxes with the couplings on I'd say there is.

[Roy Langridge]

Judging that you can't get the Austerities back in the boxes with the couplings on I'd say there is.

Just cut a bit out, that is all I did - easy.

 

Roy

[FPH 603]

6-car Bachmann Blue Pullman is available on Olivia's is £600 (or roughly £100 per car) - I'm assuming that's RRP. And it's from tooling made some time ago, when things were cheaper.

 

6-car APT is on at £700.

 

Given the shift in market prices over the last few years, the APT doesn't look wildly out-of-kilter for what is likely to be a very low-run, specialist product, which has to cover its costs in a single run (I'd guess).

 

Why do you think it is "way more expensive"?

 

Paul

Trends I see going to prices like these are brass built RTR or even kits. You could say I'm on the wrong side of the currency exchange, as for Australian Dollars is typically worth around 3/4 of a British Pound. (Don't bother correcting me, this is an approximation from my perspective!) And Australian Outline can REALLY rip you off. A normal OO Gauge Steam Locomotive would go into the $190 - $290 price range, whilst an AUSTRALIAN OUTLINE model would go the $600 dollar range, AND THAT IS FOR THE STUPID THING WITH NO DCC OR WEATHERING! Weathering is plus $25, and DCC is an additional $100, both of these add on prices are reasonable, BUT $600 FOR ONE BLOODY LOCOMOTIVE? AND APPARENTLY ITS A BRASS ONE! - I've read that particular model may actually have been been molded plastic on a metal chassis, WAY TO RIP EVERYONE OFF!

 

In short - I need to know what I'm buying, and Australian Outline rips you off. If I was to buy the 6 Car APT, that would be around $1000 so I am kind of biased when it come to pricing of models.

Edited December 3, 2017 by DoubleDeckInterurban

[Legend]

Think it might be too rich for me. I was expecting something around the Bachmann BP range , which I've always thought was over priced in Kaders leap to European Pricing . Say £500-£600 , but £750 for the 7 car variant probably a bit much for a model I'm only going to run occasionally ( I've just given my Voyager a run for the first time in 5 years) . Added to this the likely coreless motor and I'm thinking not .

 

I may yet be swayed . I passed the real thing several times in my class 303 , when it was based at Shields Road and it just takes me back to the early eighties and , in particular, the very cold winter of 81 when it made it's disastrous public debut in sub zero temperatures . So I may yet be swayed .

[Colin_McLeod]

Is there a deadline for placing am order?

[60800]

Is there a deadline for placing am order?

6 months from the 25th November, but it has been stated that if the required number of orders are reached early then it will close early

[adb968008]

Am I right in thinking this is 5 different coach’s ?

 

Driving car, Open (1st/2nd/unc each is a different interior), Guards, Buffet and power c

 

For those considering price:

Two class 87’s :£320,

12 Bachmann full fat DCC Mk2f’s : £756

Both of those are quoted at Box shifter rates too.

 

If my maths /wiki are right 7 coaches is 482ft, so 1.92m for 7 car, 3.84m (average 27cm per car, or 1.5cm longer than a mk1) for a 14 car train wow

:-)

In price, size and nicheness this is a model to separate men from boys but the prize is probably the ultimate in modern image modelling, Three Hornby class 800 IEPs would come in at the same price, and whilst a full fat eurostar e320 would probably outsell this many times, neither will turn heads like an APT.

 

Is there any benefit to those willing to stump up the full value at the starting line ?

Edited December 4, 2017 by adb968008

[letterspider]

I'm finding these prices scary.

[JSpencer]

If we talk about prices...

 

Currently on a well known auction site, you can find people asking for between £450 and £700 for the old 5 car Hornby one (most with full yellow ends)! There are several too.

The Rapido 4 car set (which I suspect is a close match in quality to the proposed DJM/Durham one) is equally £500 to £800.

 

Of course what they ask for and what they get are 2 entirely different matters. Shame that site no longer charges a small fee to make a small announcement as it dis-encourages  people to put things on at grossly bloated prices for years on end.

 

The Rapido/NRM APT-E was £230 4 car set, but we are going back at least 3 years now. Actual production in the factory took 3 times longer than planned. But this is a model with very few etchings (if any) and probably very few fitted parts compared to a Blue Pullman. Internal lighting cannot be controlled under DCC (but is does have flashing LEDs in the computer room).

 

My mathes is simple. £750 buys you a 7 car train. For £250 you get one twice as big. Did some calculations on layout yesterday using my old Hornby (perhaps I should sell that for £500 to help pay for a DJM one), surprised to calculate that it could run a 14 car which I found fitted in the outer loop fiddle yards (but only just).

Edited December 4, 2017 by JSpencer

[kernowtim]

Would love one of these but can't justify the expense , maybe if I hadn't just bought the nrm deltic and duchess... Will just have to make do with my Hornby model, looks nearly the same when its packed away

[Colin_McLeod]

Recent e bay completed sales are much more affordable than stated above. A 10 car set with two power cars went for only £171. Wish now that I had put in a bid.

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&redirect=mobile&_nkw=Hornby+apt&_in_kw=1&_ex_kw=&_sacat=0&LH_Sold=1&_udlo=&_udhi=&_samilow=&_samihi=&_sargn=-1%26saslc%3D1&_salic=3&_sop=12&_dmd=1&_ipg=50&LH_Complete=1

Edited December 4, 2017 by Colin_McLeod

[DJM Dave]

Am I right in thinking this is 5 different coach’s ?

 

Driving car, Open (1st/2nd/unc each is a different interior), Guards, Buffet and power c

 

For those considering price:

Two class 87’s :£320,

12 Bachmann full fat DCC Mk2f’s : £756

Both of those are quoted at Box shifter rates too.

 

If my maths /wiki are right 7 coaches is 482ft, so 1.92m for 7 car, 3.84m (average 27cm per car, or 1.5cm longer than a mk1) for a 14 car train wow

:-)

In price, size and nicheness this is a model to separate men from boys but the prize is probably the ultimate in modern image modelling, Three Hornby class 800 IEPs would come in at the same price, and whilst a full fat eurostar e320 would probably outsell this many times, neither will turn heads like an APT.

 

Is there any benefit to those willing to stump up the full value at the starting line ?

I think the only starting line is the start and finish line together, as i dont know of any plans to make them after the initial crowdfunder, although myself i wouldnt mind a 'City of Derby' power car dummy and a single RTC APT coach for my RTC collection of stock.

[GordonC]

Once one batch are produced, its one of those things that I'm not sure would ever come around again but it really was such an iconic train of its era so is worth pushing the boat out to get one

[njee20]

I presume he means versus a payment plan, rather than 'post release'? At risk of putting words in your mouth Dave, I'd suggest no difference.

 

Also... without wanting to start another well-trodden debate: 

 

the ultimate in modern image modelling

 

Really grates on something that was withdrawn more than 30 years ago!

[Colin_McLeod]

Can someone please either correct the typo in the title of this thread or explain the differences between crowdfunding and crowdunding?

[JSpencer]

Recent e bay completed sales are much more affordable than stated above. A 10 car set with two power cars went for only £171. Wish now that I had put in a bid.

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&redirect=mobile&_nkw=Hornby+apt&_in_kw=1&_ex_kw=&_sacat=0&LH_Sold=1&_udlo=&_udhi=&_samilow=&_samihi=&_sargn=-1%26saslc%3D1&_salic=3&_sop=12&_dmd=1&_ipg=50&LH_Complete=1

 

Recent e bay completed sales are much more affordable than stated above. A 10 car set with two power cars went for only £171. Wish now that I had put in a bid.

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&redirect=mobile&_nkw=Hornby+apt&_in_kw=1&_ex_kw=&_sacat=0&LH_Sold=1&_udlo=&_udhi=&_samilow=&_samihi=&_sargn=-1%26saslc%3D1&_salic=3&_sop=12&_dmd=1&_ipg=50&LH_Complete=1

 

They cheated. The intermediate coaches have no articulated bogie between them, instead they share the connections which would otherwise be used with the power cars.